Split Thread SAIC, ARA and 9/11 (split from "All 43 videos...")

the kind of devices that would have been used on 9/11 in the simulation of hijackings of aircraft, as took place on 9/11.
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Before you can speculate on such 'devices' I would like you to tell us what happened to the actual aircraft and the passengers?

They took off from airports as scheduled. There were passengers aboard.

Now these aircraft are gone as are all the passengers.

What happened to them if they didn't crash as advertised?
 
jammonius said:
Well, well, well, a timely, if ultimately milque-toast article has appeared in the Washington Post that helps to set SAIC and ARA in their proper perspective; namely, as key elements of the secretive MIC.

The WP article is a bit unwieldy but can be linked through the following sub-part which lists over 1,900 companies that are involved in the secrecy apparatus.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/companies/

One central and overriding fallacy of the article is that it links the build-up of the secrecy apparatus to a post-9/11 timeframe. That begs the question. I have elsewhere shown that the means to carryout the events of 9/11 consist precisely in the secretive military exercises that took place on 9/11. The secrecy apparatus was already in place on and long prior to 9/11. If the list of companies currently involved in that out-of-control process is now over 1900, you can be sure that prior to 9/11 the list was probably virtually identical and equalled at least 1500 then, if not more.

Importantly, you can be darn sure that SAIC and ARA are not new additions to that list. They have been there for decades.

Hear this: SAIC and ARA each play controlling roles in the apparatus and functioning of the top secret world. Therein lies your clue to the events of 9/11, could more of you but realize it.
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Adobe is on that list too, I'm guessing they're hard at work developing directed energy PDFs to use against the next building the government wants to take down. Or Xerox and their PHOTOCOPIERS OF DOOOOM :rolleyes: Hell, even Google and Microsoft are on there. DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM! :drool:

You do realize that a company can work on classified and top secret projects that aren't weapons, right? Classified/top secret projects really aren't, for the most part, as interesting as they're made out to be in the movies. I wish you would get a grip with reality.
 
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Captain_Swoop said:
Before you can speculate on such 'devices' I would like you to tell us what happened to the actual aircraft and the passengers?

They took off from airports as scheduled. There were passengers aboard.

Now these aircraft are gone as are all the passengers.

What happened to them if they didn't crash as advertised?
Click to expand...

The jammonius-take on this is to claim there were no planes and hence no passengers.
In other words, two airline companies were in on it and had so much fun that they didn't mind losing billions in the aftermath. And hundreds of friends and relatives went to mock funerals. And hundreds of forensic professionals were in on it. Plus of course the police, the fire departments, the media, the MIC, the government (several branches down several levels), the FAA, the military, the Russians, the Chinese (everybody who has spy satellites up in orbit and should be able to spot massively huge weapons systems deployed up there), etc. etc.
A conspiracy that involves tens, if not hundreds of thousands of paerticipants.
And get this: Most of them unsuspecting! Dozends of forensic experts were psy-oped into thinking their scientif methods identified victims. Dozends of flight controllers were psy-oped into thinking their radar scopes showed planes. Tens of thousands of New Yorkers were psy-oped into seeing planes that don't exsist, right after every media company that operates in New York City (i.e. every major international news co in the entirety of this planet) were psy-oped into the same. Fire fighters and other rescue teams were psy-oped into believing they saw tons of plane parts (among them such tell-tale thinngs as swimminw vests which are not typically stored in office buildings, but stowed under every plane seat and are known to pretty much everybody who has ever flown from the pre-flight ballet) and hundreds of body parts.
The entire world was psy-oped.

With one exception:



*drum snarrrrrrre*



Yep!
You guessed it!
Our beloved jammonius!
 
jammonius said:
Well, well, well, a timely, if ultimately milque-toast article has appeared in the Washington Post that helps to set SAIC and ARA in their proper perspective; namely, as key elements of the secretive MIC.

The WP article is a bit unwieldy but can be linked through the following sub-part which lists over 1,900 companies that are involved in the secrecy apparatus.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/companies/

One central and overriding fallacy of the article is that it links the build-up of the secrecy apparatus to a post-9/11 timeframe. That begs the question. I have elsewhere shown that the means to carryout the events of 9/11 consist precisely in the secretive military exercises that took place on 9/11. The secrecy apparatus was already in place on and long prior to 9/11. If the list of companies currently involved in that out-of-control process is now over 1900, you can be sure that prior to 9/11 the list was probably virtually identical and equalled at least 1500 then, if not more.

Importantly, you can be darn sure that SAIC and ARA are not new additions to that list. They have been there for decades.

Hear this: SAIC and ARA each play controlling roles in the apparatus and functioning of the top secret world. Therein lies your clue to the events of 9/11, could more of you but realize it.
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Some obvious questions:

- How can one objectively (without presuming the consequent) conclude from the list that SAIC and ARA are key elements of the secretive MIC? What does that mean, anyway - "key element"?

- How can one objectively (without presuming the consequent) conclude from the list that SAIC and ARA each play controlling roles in the apparatus and functioning of the top secret world? What does that mean, anyway - "controlling roles"?

- Or are all 1900 companies on that list both key elements of the secretive MIC and playing controlling roles in the apparatus and functioning of the top secret world? If so, does that mean they are all in on the plot? How many hundreds of thousands of potential leaks (employees) would that be?

- How is the assertion that a couple of companies are contractors of the military objectively (without presuming the consequent) linked at all to the events of 9/11?

- Is it fair to say that the MIC is a very emotional issue for you, jammonius, and that you are therefore unable to make objective judgements about its doings?
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Before you can speculate on such 'devices' I would like you to tell us what happened to the actual aircraft and the passengers?

They took off from airports as scheduled. There were passengers aboard.

Now these aircraft are gone as are all the passengers.

What happened to them if they didn't crash as advertised?
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Greetings Swoop,

I see by your post count that you are a relative newcomer, someone who fits into the descriptor that I refer to as "Lurker" or "lurker group" denoting status as an infrequent poster. Mind you, at >200 posts you are well on your way to becoming a regular poster, subject to the regular rigors of the 9/11 conspiracy sub-forum.

Among the rigors of the sub-forum within the threads that I participate in, there are a few special rules. Among them are:

1) You may call me all the names you might like to call me as a survey of the threads I participate in will reveal tht pattern, I think it fair to say.

2) You may not use rhetorical questions as an excuse for failing to post up your own claims, supported howsoever you can support your claims.

3) In your above post, you actually avoid the claim of "rhetoric" because while on the one hand you ask a rhetorical question:

...I would like you to tell us what happened to the actual aircraft and the passengers?
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However, to your credit, you then go on and do the right thing; namely, you state YOUR claim and provide an answer to YOUR OWN rhetoric. For that, you are to be commended. It is too bad other posters do not do more of the same. Here's how you, yourself, answered your own rhetoric:

They took off from airports as scheduled. There were passengers aboard.

Now these aircraft are gone as are all the passengers.
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While on the one hand you have answered your own rhetoric, you have not offered any proof of your assertions on the other. As such, your assertions fail, not because you might believe them, you are free to do that for as long as you can; but rather, your claim fails because it consists in a priori declarations for which no independent proof is offered.

In the final turn of events in your post, you return to unacceptable rhetoric:

What happened to them if they didn't crash as advertised?
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That is pure rhetoric because you have not offered any proof at all of either planes, passengers or crashes.

I have elsewhere explained that the "whataboutthepassengers" ditty is the A-1 show stopper for the NO PLANE claim, precisely because it is an emotionally charged fallacy:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6133761&postcount=2161
 
jammonius said:
Greetings Swoop,

I see by your post count that you are a relative newcomer, someone who fits into the descriptor that I refer to as "Lurker" or "lurker group" denoting status as an infrequent poster. Mind you, at >200 posts you are well on your way to becoming a regular poster, subject to the regular rigors of the 9/11 conspiracy sub-forum.

I have elsewhere explained that the "whataboutthepassengers" ditty is the A-1 show stopper for the NO PLANE claim, precisely because it is an emotionally charged fallacy:

...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6133761&postcount=2161
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What happened to my wok-mate, Ed Felt. who was last seen boarding Flight 93 and who made a phone call reporting being hijacked from his plane while it was over PA?
 
Do the Mods know about your 'special rules'?

I think I just had a masterclass in Dodging the question.

My questions aren't rhetoric. I want you to tell me what you think or believe happened to the aircraft and the passengers?

They existed, those aircraft were built paid for and operated by the airlines concerned. Those passengers were real people. They had families, relatives, friends and work colleagues. Where did they go?

If you have any evidence that the aircraft didn't hit the towers as witnessed by thousands of people then why don't you just come out and post it here for me to see?
 
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jammonius said:
Greetings Swoop,
...[blablabla]
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What an enormous heap of smouldering, stinking, condescending rhetorics!

jammi, Swoop asked a valid question, namely, what happened to the 4 aircraft that supposedly were lost to 2 airline companies that day, and what happened to the passengers that are listed on the passanger manifests (regardless of what we make of these manifests, there are passenger lists, people are listed by name, and many received formal funerals).

The question was NOT rethoric, as Swoop honestly expected YOU to give him YOUR answer to that question. You could have answered for example that the planes and people never existed at all and were entirely invented by writing fantasy names and numbers on forged papers. If that is your answer (we don't know, because you never gave that answer AFAIK).

Swoop offering HIS answer is not proof of his question being rhetorical. It was merely a short cut to finding the discussion point - the point about which the two of you disagree and can reasonably debate about.
 
This thread may have some possibilities based on the WashPost Article

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/

The above is the overall link to the Washington Post special project entitled:

"Top-Secret America"

The actual substance of the article is contained in two separate sections.

The first is titled:

A hidden world, growing beyond control
July 19, 2010
Reference

The second is:

Types of top-secret work
July 19, 2010



References to the various companies within the Military-Industrial-Complex (MIC) that are involved in the secrecy apparatus are then found in separte charts sublinked from the section entitled "Types of top-secret work" (TTSW).

I note in that connection that the work, while comprehensive is not terribly accurate. On page 4 of the TTSW section, the sub-category "Psychological Operations" (Psyops) is found:

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/articles/functions/

However, if you click onto Psyops:

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/functions/psychological-ops/

... you then find only a one page listing of companies that are said to be involved in such matters.

That list does not include SAIC. That means the WashPost article is woefully incomplete as SAIC is deeply, deeply involved in psyops, yet WP missed it.

Still, for purposes of this thread, the WP article is considered an important reference source and should be reviewed carefully by posters here who are interested in serious discussion.

Note, too, that the "whataboutthepassengers" ditty that seems to have captured the attention and the fancy of some posters here fits very well into the category of PSYOP and needs to be understood as such.

Your basic hint about the psyop aspect of the whataboutthepassengers ditty is that the actual proof of planes, of passengers and of crashes is nonexistent. The entire matter rests upon newspaper and media simulation. There is little extrinsic proof of the common storyline of 9/11.

Put it this way, when your main source of proof of what happened on 9/11 consists in cut/paste jobby-dos from stupid debunker websites that have a flag in their mast or logo and which rely for sourcing on myspace and pennysaver, then you know you are in the midst of a psyop, could more of you but realize it.
 
jammonius said:

Put it this way, when your main source of proof of what happened on 9/11 consists in cut/paste jobby-dos from stupid debunker websites that have a flag in their mast or logo and which rely for sourcing on myspace and pennysaver, then you know you are in the midst of a psyop, could more of you but realize it.
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Project much?

And what exactly is "Your" main source of what happened on 9/11? I suspect that you are in the midst of a looney tunes but don't realize it.
 
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BigAl said:
What happened to my wok-mate, Ed Felt. who was last seen boarding Flight 93 and who made a phone call reporting being hijacked from his plane while it was over PA?
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When are you going to quit relying on rhetoric nand start posting up actual substantive claims for which you take the responsibility of proving or explaining, yourself?

We have gone down the Ed Felt discussion path in other threads. Permit me to suggest you either post up the substance of your claims and of your personal connection, or at least post up links to the prior exchanges we have had on and about Ed Felt, about whom it can only accurately be said that he was a purported passenger on alleged Flight 93, who, sadly, may well have been missing since 9/11/01 and who, once again sadly, is presumed dead. What I have here said about Ed Felt is the only factually accurate way to put the matter.

If you change it into an emotional, jingoistic ditty, then that is your business.
 
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What happened to the planes?

What hit the towers if not the planes that were seen by thousands of witnesses? Planes that were known to take off fromairports and were tracked by ATC until they hit the towers?

If not the planes what did the damage?
If it wasn't the planes where did they go?
What happened to all the passengers and crew if theyweren't killed in the crashes?
where did they go and where are they now?
 
jammonius said:
When are you going to quit relying on rhetoric? We have gone down that path in other threads. permit me to suggest you either post up the substnace of your claims and of your personal connection, or at least post up links to the prior exchanges we have had on and about Ed Felt, a purported passenger on alleged Flight 93, who, sadly, may well have been missing since 9/11/10 and who, once again sadly, is presumed dead.
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Just answer the freaking question. What happened to his work mate?
 
jammonius said:
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/

The above is the overall link to the Washington Post special project entitled:

"Top-Secret America"

The actual substance of the article is contained in two separate sections.

The first is titled:

A hidden world, growing beyond control
July 19, 2010
Reference

The second is:

Types of top-secret work
July 19, 2010



References to the various companies within the Military-Industrial-Complex (MIC) that are involved in the secrecy apparatus are then found in separte charts sublinked from the section entitled "Types of top-secret work" (TTSW).

I note in that connection that the work, while comprehensive is not terribly accurate. On page 4 of the TTSW section, the sub-category "Psychological Operations" (Psyops) is found:

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/articles/functions/

However, if you click onto Psyops:

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/functions/psychological-ops/

... you then find only a one page listing of companies that are said to be involved in such matters.

That list does not include SAIC. That means the WashPost article is woefully incomplete as SAIC is deeply, deeply involved in psyops, yet WP missed it.
Click to expand...

I've said it before and I'll say it again, top secret work is not as exciting as it is in the movies. You need to wrap your head around that fact. They aren't turned into the Men in Black with memory erasing and laser guns just because they do top secret work. You're so hopelessly out of touch with reality and paranoid I'm surprised you manage to get out of bed in the morning.

The entire matter rests upon newspaper and media simulation. There is little extrinsic proof of the common storyline of 9/11.
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Still, for purposes of this thread, the WP article is considered an important reference source and should be reviewed carefully by posters here who are interested in serious discussion.
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I can't believe you managed those two in the same post. Bolding mine. You are aware the Washington Post is a newspaper, right?

Put it this way, when your main source of proof of what happened on 9/11 consists in cut/paste jobby-dos from stupid debunker websites that have a flag in their mast or logo and which rely for sourcing on myspace and pennysaver, then you know you are in the midst of a psyop, could more of you but realize it.
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Your main source of proof is psychosis, I wish you would realize it.

How do people get this ignorant. :(
 
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twinstead said:
Project much?

And what exactly is "Your" main source of what happened on 9/11? I suspect that you are in the midst of a looney tunes but don't realize it.
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Greetings Twinstead,

I have elsewhere posted up what I consider to be the main sources of proof as it relates to proof of the NO PLANE claim. Did you miss it?

For your reference, and for the benefit of this thread, let me here post, yet again, a good reference of the sources of proof of the NO PLANE claim:

You have no better or faster alternative other than that of reviewing the 60+ pages of the two Dick Oliver threads in this forum found at:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171082

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174043

Those threads deal with many of the witness accounts, as well as the valid video data and audio data.

You can also review the PAPD accounts can be found at:

http://adam.pra.to/public/mir/www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/

You should also take some time to familiarize yourself with the 503 Task Force Witness statements (which I claim is the single best source of witness accounts and a source that easily qualifies as valid evidence)

Those can be found at;

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packag...12_WTC_GRAPHIC/met_WTC_histories_full_01.html

Once again, the above link is your best source of eyewitness information, bar none.

I also suggest you avoid like the plague the jingoistic debunker websites that provide newspaper accounts and that ignore, completely, the fact that there are NO PLANE witnesses.

Another interesing source is the Ginny Carr audio:

http://www.sonicmemorial.org/sonic/public/archive.jsp

type in Ginny Carr

And the following video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuIACIpon7w&feature=player_embedded#!

The title of the above video is Amateur Footage Pt. 2, but I call it CMs Video.

The ALL 43 videos are an important source of witness accounts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc2tfVuaSrg

See also, the ALL43 thread that discusses the ALL43 video: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175654

So, in review, you have (in order of importance, imho):

1--Task Force Witness Statements

2--1:16 Dick Oliver video

3--10:00 Dick Oliver video

4--ALL 43 second hits video. And the All43 thread: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175654

5--PAPD police reports

6--CMs Video

7--Ginny Carr audio

To the above, we can also add the NIST, NCSTAR series found at:

http://wtc.nist.gov/NCSTAR1/

The NCSTAR complilation consists in multiple parts, sub-parts and appendices, totally more than 10,000pgs of inconclusive, fraudulent BS. However, the fact that so much data was compile to basically not even deal with what actually happened to the Twin Towers simply confirms that there is no official explanation of what happened.

One can also pay passing attention to the 9/11 Commission Report, that I won't even provide a link for because that source is so stupidly false and fraudulent that it isn't even worth it.

Finally, while inconclusive and underfunded, the FEMA report is worth a glance:

http://www.fema.gov/rebuild/mat/wtcstudy.shtm
 
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jammonius said:
When are you going to quit relying on rhetoric nand start posting up actual substantive claims for which you take the responsibility of proving or explaining, yourself?

We have gone down the Ed Felt discussion path in other threads. Permit me to suggest you either post up the substance of your claims and of your personal connection, or at least post up links to the prior exchanges we have had on and about Ed Felt, about whom it can only accurately be said that he was a purported passenger on alleged Flight 93, who, sadly, may well have been missing since 9/11/01 and who, once again sadly, is presumed dead. What I have here said about Ed Felt is the only factually accurate way to put the matter.
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Ed Felt was observed boarding flight 93.

Ed Felt made one of the several in-flight phone calls reporting the hijacking.

Ed's DNA was recovered from the Flight 93 crash site.

19 Arabs Islamists hijacked 4 jets on 9/11and crashed them into three buildings and a cornfield causing all the death and destruction. One of those planes carried Ed Felt.
 
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Yea, the biggest investigation in FBI history, thousands of bits of evidence and eye witness accounts to choose from, a formal trial, peer-reviewed scientific papers, etc, but all we have consists of "cut/paste jobby-dos from stupid debunker websites that have a flag in their mast or logo and which rely for sourcing on myspace and pennysaver"

Hmmm. I guess you got us jamm. :boggled: The jig is up folks!
 
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