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Tricky Bibi?

And in the interview, he is pretty clear as to what failed.

You can always re-use that "if I were a Palestinian I would have rejected Camp David, as well" quote as many times as you want, like truthers and their "pull it" quote, or like creationists who love to use Stephen Jay Gould quotes, but reality will remain the same.

Reality will stay the same.
The offer made by Barak at Camp David is admitted, by an Israeli negotiator, to be unacceptable. That's not a mis-quote or taken out of context.

The Israelis didn't want to go on making offers until they had a counter-offer. They wanted to know the absolute limit beyond which they wouldn't have to go. They already had such a limit, eg: the 1967 borders. But they wanted a newer counter-offer -- some "face-saving formulation for the Israelis", to quote your article.

He has a point, but I don't think it's all that big. Especially when Ben Ami says, in your article, "Yes. Intellectually, I can understand their logic. I understandthat from their point of view, they ceded 78 percent [of historic Palestine]at Oslo, so the rest is theirs. I understand that from their point of view,the process is one of decolonization, and therefore they are not going tomake a compromise with us, just as the residents of Congo would notcompromise with the Belgians."

Though one might say that they had already compromised.
 
Reality will stay the same.
The offer made by Barak at Camp David is admitted, by an Israeli negotiator, to be unacceptable. That's not a mis-quote or taken out of context.

You remind me of truthers.

They love to use the quote from Lee Hamilton, (one of the chairmen of the 9/11 Commission) where he said the Commission was "set up to fail". But that doesn't mean he disagrees with the Commission. To this day, he endorses and supports 100% the findings of the Commission.

You're doing the same with Ben Ami.
 
I think the intifada is proof enough that the Pals were there ones who rejected it. But go ahead, tell yourself that they "both rejected it" if that makes you feel better.

The reason some people don't want to admit Arafat planned in advance the Oslo accord merely as a ruse, as part of the "staged plan" for Israel's destruction, by taking as much as he can and then starting a war to get the rest, is not so much hatred of Jews or a wish to agree with Arafat's goals per se, but the inability to admit to themselves they were played for suckers by the wily old scam artist Arafat was.

I sympathize, as admitting you were played for a fool is very difficult. Denial is the easy way out -- the way taken by the so-called "paper for thinking people" (Ha'aretz), as its Hebrew motto says, and by a significant part of the left in the international arena.

Ha'aretz's editorials since Arafat declared (open) war are not much more than attempts to convince themselves that they weren't really fooled, and that Oslo really will lead to peace, if only the evil right wing extremists won't insist on going on doing disgusting things, such as breathing, despite the Arabs making it quite clear they consider it unacceptable.

It might be an absurd, and, in the case of the Israeli "thinking people" from Ha'aretz, practically suicidal, but some people would rather die than admit they were wrong.
 
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I see the tu quoque is your fallacy of choice.

If you'd actually clicked the link and read it, you'd seen that B'Tselem tallies statistics of both Israeli and Palestinian casualties. No "tu quoque" there.

And Taba actually was the successor conference to Camp David; and they came closer then ever to a solution. Too bad the Barak government was already dead in the water by then.

As to Camp David, it's also been said that Clinton convened the conference with too little preparation, and there have also been endless streams of maps that Barak di or didn't present as his offer. It's pointless to continue arguin who exactly is to blame for the failure of the conference.

But 10 years later, where are we now? FireGarden's post #7 is the most interesting in this thread. After Taba, the peace process has basically been put on ice, and GWB has done nothing about it for 7 years. In the end, he didn't want to go down in history as the president who had done nothing about the conflict and organized Annapolis - which was nothing more than a dog-and-pony show, only the severely deluded or eternal optimist would have thought that anything would come out of that.

Olmert spoke in 2008, still PM but IIRC already dead in the water, bravely of the consequences of further failure of the peace process, and I agree with his analysis. However, nothing has been achieved since either. Obama has made some critical remarks to Netanyahu, but Netanyahu has made long nose and got away with it. And Obama can't risk being too critical of Israel for the consequences of the November midterm elections; or further down the line, in two years his own re-election - if he's too critical, AIPAC will do everything to destroy his or other Democrats' chances.

Shlomo Ben-Ami's remarks make clear why a US president needs to be "too critical". If there is to be a peace treaty, both Israelis and Palestinians have to move out of their "comfort zone" and do concessions they're at heart not willing to make. The US president, as the "honest broker", is the one whose job it is to arm twist the Israeli negotiators into doing concessions beyond what they had in mind - and likewise the Palestinian ones, but there's no Palestinian equivalent of AIPAC to worry about.

So, for a successful peace conference, the stars have to be just right. As argued above, the US president must be in a second term and not have to fear for his reelection. The Israeli government likewise has to have a solid support in the Knesset, and that task has only become more cumbersome with the rise of Kadima. The rift between Fatah and Hamas has made the task for a Palestinian government to negotiate more difficult too.

Meanwhile, the matter to negotiate about becomes ever more difficult too. Netanyahu works on "facts on the ground". A cursory look at the map shows how Arab East Jerusalem is virtually surrounded by Jewish West Jerusalem and Jewish settlements to the east. How to untangle that mess?

When it comes to the point that indeed, the only option seems to be four or five Palestinian enclaves, isolated from each other, in the West Bank, then indeed, no other sensible alternative exists for Palestinian negotiators than to say: "just annex us". With a single country with roughly 50-50 Jewish and Arab inhabitants, and the consequences Olmert painted.
 
Ah, I see, it's everbody else's fault (Netanyahu, Clinton, AIPAC, Obama not being in his second term, and even W. Bush...) except the Palestinian authority, and yet it's the Palestinians who launched a brutal intifada merely a month after the negotiations stopped.

Funny how you never mention them.

I think that launching an Intifada was a major stumbling block for any possibility for further negotiations, but that's just me.
 
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Ah, I see, it's everbody else's fault (Netanyahu, Clinton, AIPAC, Obama not being in his second term, and even W. Bush...) except the Palestinian authority, and yet it's the Palestinians who launched a brutal intifada merely a month after the negotiations stopped.

Funny how you never mention them.
Back to lying? Or do you need a new prescription for your glasses?

I think that launching an Intifada was a major stumbling block for any possibility for further negotiations, but that's just me.
Yet Taba occurred after that.
 
Back to lying? Or do you need a new prescription for your glasses?

I didn't see you mention the words "Palestinian authority" or "Arafat" in your entire post. Maybe you can point them out to me?

It seems to me obvious that you place the blame of the failed talks solely on Israel and America.
 
I didn't see you mention the words "Palestinian authority" or "Arafat" in your entire post. Maybe you can point them out to me?
Are you trying to weasel out of this by asking for these two specific strings?

Shlomo Ben-Ami's remarks make clear why a US president needs to be "too critical". If there is to be a peace treaty, both Israelis and Palestinians have to move out of their "comfort zone" and do concessions they're at heart not willing to make. The US president, as the "honest broker", is the one whose job it is to arm twist the Israeli negotiators into doing concessions beyond what they had in mind - and likewise the Palestinian ones, but there's no Palestinian equivalent of AIPAC to worry about.

So, for a successful peace conference, the stars have to be just right. As argued above, the US president must be in a second term and not have to fear for his reelection. The Israeli government likewise has to have a solid support in the Knesset, and that task has only become more cumbersome with the rise of Kadima. The rift between Fatah and Hamas has made the task for a Palestinian government to negotiate more difficult too.

It seems to me obvious that you place the blame of the failed talks solely on Israel and America.
It's obvious to me that you insist on continuing intentionally misinterpreting my posts and lying about their contents. It's quite pointless to debate with you.
 
Gideon Levy,
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/tricky-bibi-1.302053
regarding a video shown on Israel's channel 10. It was recorded in 2001, without Netanyahu knowing and, in it, he claims credit for destroying Oslo. Levy is quite dramatic, as is his style.

Richard Silverstein includes a translation. I'm sure the Hebrew speakers here will post any corrections that are needed.

Bibi the Bamboozler,
http://www.richardsilverstein.com/t...america-wont-get-in-our-way-its-easily-moved/




And America gave him the right to define military sites as he pleased.

The Israelis have never been interested in a settlement with the Palestinians. Perhaps world-wide sanctions on Israel will do trick.
 
Everything could have been settled in Camp David in 2000, it wasn't Israel who made it fail.

Was this the agreement where the West Bank was divide into Swiss cheese with inaccessible Jewish corridors running thru it? And you expect the Palestinians to accept this?
 
Are you trying to weasel out of this by asking for these two specific strings?

It's obvious to me that you insist on continuing intentionally misinterpreting my posts and lying about their contents. It's quite pointless to debate with you.

I'm not misinterpreting anything, that's the way it sounds to me. If I'm mistaken then explain what I got wrong.

It's the way you phrase things, the way you give more importance to Obama's mid term election and the pressure from AIPAC to explain the ongoing problem in the region than the Hamas-fatah feud, or the Palestinian authority unwillingness to stop the attacks on Israel, which you added to your text as an addendum, like a mere afterthought. It really should be the other way around.

It's really not the US' electoral process that is at fault here for slowing down the peace process in the Middle East, or the lack of a Palestinian "AIPAC", it's the fact that both parties don't want to sit and talk honestly, and you won't recognize the Palestinian side of the blame for not moving forward and having a plan for peace. Time and time again, the only way they responded to peace talks is with Intifadas. No it's somehow has to be Bush 43's fault, or Obama not being in the right term, or AIPAC having too much influence, or...
 
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"I know what America is. America is a thing you can move very easily, move it in the right direction. They won't get in their [Cain- "our"?] way."

By releasing this video the leftist media is sabotaging the peace process.
 
If there is to be a peace treaty, both Israelis and Palestinians have to move out of their "comfort zone" and do concessions they're at heart not willing to make.

Or, the Palestinians have to move out of their "from the river to the sea" and "right of return"-zones to name just two and come to terms with the consequences of them and their Arab "friends" waging war against Israel for the past decades - and losing.

What are those "comfort zones" supposed to be, especially on the Palestinian side? It doesn't look to me as if the Palestians are in the position to demand any concessions from Israel, especially not with the bait and switch tactics and the behaviour Pardalis has pointed out.

Sometimes I like to think about this from a German perspective, in regards to what would have happened if Germany decided to wage a terror war against Poland after World War II. And insisted on a "right of return" to the areas lost during World War II, or a "Slavic free Poland". Would you be talking about "comfort zones" and concessions Poland would have to make. Let's say even after Poland had given the Gdansk area and the Czech Republic as an ally of Germany southern areas too?

that's the way it sounds to me. [...]

I agree. When ddt mentions B'tselem and points out why s/he does, I read that one more like an afterthought as well. I guess I also "insist on continuing" to "intentionally misinterpret[ ddt's] posts and lying about their contents". At least it makes it easier for ddt.;)

It's really not the US' electoral process that is at fault here for slowing down the peace process in the Middle East, or the lack of a Palestinian "AIPAC" [...] No it's somehow has to be Bush 43's fault, or Obama not being in the right term, or AIPAC having too much influence, or...

It does sound to me as if ddt is trying to absolve the Palestinians of much of their own responsibility by blaming external factors like AIPAC, of all things. Is the U.S. or anyone else really that important? I've lost much of my interest regarding this topic and am out of the loop, so please do elaborate.

I think Finklestein makes a good point
Democracy Now's summary

Colour me not so surprised anymore regarding that camera thing.:p
 
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Pardalis,
Can you please take a minute to imagine what this looks like to other people?

You begin by citing a conclcuion, then evidence and then your conclusion again:

Ah, I see, it's everbody else's fault (Netanyahu, Clinton, AIPAC, Obama not being in his second term, and even W. Bush...) except the Palestinian authority,

[...] Funny how you never mention them.

I didn't see you mention the words "Palestinian authority" or "Arafat" in your entire post. Maybe you can point them out to me?

It seems to me obvious that you place the blame of the failed talks solely on Israel and America.

Then you are shown that ddt did mention the Palestinians. But you still have the same conclusion. This time based on less specific evidence: how ddt phrases things.

I'm not misinterpreting anything, that's the way it sounds to me. If I'm mistaken then explain what I got wrong.

It's the way you phrase things, the way you give more importance to Obama's mid term election and the pressure from AIPAC to explain the ongoing problem in the region than the Hamas-fatah feud, or the Palestinian authority unwillingness to stop the attacks on Israel, which you added to your text as an addendum, like a mere afterthought. It really should be the other way around.
 
You want a comment, okay. Let's just say that if I cared what politicians said 10 years ago, I guess I'd never get out of caring, missing reality manifest in their actions in the process.
 
Ah, I see, it's everbody else's fault (Netanyahu, Clinton, AIPAC, Obama not being in his second term, and even W. Bush...) except the Palestinian authority, and yet it's the Palestinians who launched a brutal intifada merely a month after the negotiations stopped.

Funny how you never mention them.

I think that launching an Intifada was a major stumbling block for any possibility for further negotiations, but that's just me.

The point is, if the Palestinians had done absolutely nothing but follow the rules, there were sufficient Israelis in positions of power committed to derailing any agreement that they disagreed with, that is, that stopped the process of taking over as much of the West Bank as possible with settlements. The primary concern of the people on that tape wasn't Palestinian violence or resistance, it was the possibility of giving up the West Bank.
 
The point is, if the Palestinians had done absolutely nothing but follow the rules...

Which never happened, never came close to happening, and it's of very limited value discussing things that might have happened in an alternative time-line.




...there were sufficient Israelis in positions of power committed to derailing any agreement that they disagreed with, that is, that stopped the process of taking over as much of the West Bank as possible with settlements. The primary concern of the people on that tape wasn't Palestinian violence or resistance, it was the possibility of giving up the West Bank.

Then you must have watched a different video. The one I just watched started with the woman talking about Palestinian violence, how Palestinians were not afraid, they were shooting at them and making fun of them.

You also missed the part where Netenyahoo said, "What were the Olso Accords? The Olso Accords, which the Knesset signed, I was asked, before the elections: “Will you act according to them?” and I answered: “yes, subject to mutuality and limiting the retreats.”

I just don't see the supposed smoking gun in this video.
 

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