"Get Your Flag Decal Off Your Foreign Car!"

KingMerv00 said:
"Get Your Flag Decal Off Your Foreign Car!"

I sympathize with that statement, not for economic reasons, but because I think flags on cars are trite. Driving around with a ol' Glory is like having a bumper sticker that says, "I like ice cream." Safe and boring.
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Nothing is more safe and boring than "Mean people suck" bumper sticker.
 
3bodyproblem said:
I'm trying to find exact numbers, but the Big 3 employ about 10 times as many people in the US as Toyota and Honda.

Those are direct employees, GM has approximately 3.2 retirees per employee, Chrysler 2 and Ford 1.6. That boils down to about 2 per employee. I believe Toyota will begin to experience the burden of retiree benefits very soon, but as of now they are negligible.

A rough estimate suggests 20 times the Americans rely on the Big 3 to put food on the table than the foreign automakers.

On top of that the profits Toyota and Honda and the rest move out of the country and are less likely to trickle down. To what extent I'm not sure.

Before I made any determination one way or another I'd be curious to see a study on how much of a vehicle's cost goes into stimulating the North American economy, foreign vs. domestic. There's certainly more riding on the survival of the US automakers than the foreign. At the same time we've come to see that industry isn't as sustainable in this new World economy. The answer isn't as easy as buying American, but it seems a little short sighted to think it's equivalent to buying foreign simply because parts are made and vehicles assembled outside North America.
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The biggest difference is in how the retirements are funded. Big Three has historically been 'defined benefit'. More modern idea is 'defined contribution'. Retirees costs are payed in full in the year in which they work. It will keep the future from having to pay for the past.
 
Rolfe said:
The idea that having your country's flag on your car is pointless, suggests either an extraordinarily large country, or an extraordinarily insular attitude.

Oh wait....
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Or living on a continent where different countries have very distinct license plates.



Mark6 said:
Nothing is more safe and boring than "Mean people suck" bumper sticker.
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What if they also have a "Nice people swallow" sticker?
 
3bodyproblem said:
Indeed, I overestimated the number of Ford and Chrysler employees as well as underestimated Honda (Mazda? How do you do that? Ford owns a quarter of them)

A quick googling would suggest 5X is more likely. I've got 103000 for GM, 87 000 for Ford and 50 000 for Chrysler, for 240000 total. Toyota with 28000 and Honda with 27000.

I'm not sure if they lumped in the Canadian employees with some or all of these.

The retiree figures I cited are based on 2006, I can't find more recent numbers. There are more retirees now, and less employees.

So you are indeed correct, I was well off by a factor of 2. For some reason I thought Honda only had about 3000 workers in the US, not 27000. I also thought Ford had 120000 workers and not 87000.

I assumed the spin off jobs are about the same for everyone. There's really not much Japanese in an American made Toyota. There may be a case for the engineering aspect. I'm not sure what or where the Toyota and Honda equivalent to Auburn Hills is.
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Actually, while that figure is better, it's probably still cooked by the methods they use. The Japanese set up facilities and outsourced everything this side of assembly. I worked on many of the contracts for component suppliers. When we asked what the model was up in Detroit, a number of them responded that they didn't have the model because Detroit produced massive numbers of these components, still, themselves, in house.

I don't pretend to be an expert - my information is sort of "side-door"(as opposed to back door), but I was referring to the additional jobs created by all of the component manufacturers and distribution centers that are required to serve the Japanese JIT model. While Detroit obviously supports a lot of subsidiary industry and supply chain manufacturing, also, they don't (or didn't) have as much out sourcing as the Japanese model. And those jobs, for the most part, are US jobs. Very few companies were able to sorce foreign and still meet the demands of the JIT supply chain contract.
 
sgtbaker said:
I was told a long time ago, something I've never cared enough to look up. Is it true that after 1986 Harley motors were built by Honda?
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No. Harley has always been 100% at fault for their lousy bikes. I was a H-D tech for a long time, and I was always fascinated by how cobby they are. The transmission design hasn't changed in, well, forever, even though it's the single most inefficient transmission in vehicular history; hell, they're still using pushrods to open their valves.

Archaic, but their advertising is second to none. :D
 
Howie Felterbush said:
No. Harley has always been 100% at fault for their lousy bikes. I was a H-D tech for a long time, and I was always fascinated by how cobby they are. The transmission design hasn't changed in, well, forever, even though it's the single most inefficient transmission in vehicular history; hell, they're still using pushrods to open their valves.

Archaic, but their advertising is second to none. :D
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Oooh.... derail(apologies)....

I went to do a site visit at their York plant once. Someone was disassembling an old assembly line and selling it off and we were bidding on the shipping.

Harley made bombs in WWII. That's what we were looking at having to ship out - the old bomb assembly line. (Have no idea where it went, ultimately. We didn't win the bid.)
 
Buy whatever you like, whatever gives you the best bang for the buck.

Mediocrity shouldn't be rewarded.
 
Complexity said:
Buy whatever you like, whatever gives you the best bang for the buck.

Mediocrity shouldn't be rewarded.
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Untrammeled, unrestrained Capitalism was the "American Way". Everyone free in a Free Market Economy to buy the best product available at the best price available, with "market forces" selecting for success on merit.

"Was". :rolleyes: Until the best product at the best price didn't come from Detroit. Then this Free Market thingy didn't look so good to the Capitalists anymore.

"Buy American". If you go choosing the best product for the best price you must be a traitor to your country, and worse, to your own kind. Probably a Commie, too.
 
Foolmewunz said:
Actually, while that figure is better, it's probably still cooked by the methods they use. The Japanese set up facilities and outsourced everything this side of assembly. I worked on many of the contracts for component suppliers. When we asked what the model was up in Detroit, a number of them responded that they didn't have the model because Detroit produced massive numbers of these components, still, themselves, in house.

I don't pretend to be an expert - my information is sort of "side-door"(as opposed to back door), but I was referring to the additional jobs created by all of the component manufacturers and distribution centers that are required to serve the Japanese JIT model. While Detroit obviously supports a lot of subsidiary industry and supply chain manufacturing, also, they don't (or didn't) have as much out sourcing as the Japanese model. And those jobs, for the most part, are US jobs. Very few companies were able to sorce foreign and still meet the demands of the JIT supply chain contract.
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Yes, correct as far as I know.Some small electrical components may be shipped from overseas, but most of it is NA made.

Spin off jobs according to the last UAW figure I heard was 3.6. That would be the same for Honda as Chrysler or GM. They usual include Tier 1 and Tier 2 supplies as well as shipping, sorting and sequencing. The Union has these numbers because they are usually union employees, although different locals. Toyota would have the same associated manpower as their "man hours per vehicle" is identical to GM or Chrysler.

The spin off jobs in other areas created by the automotive industry are more of a city based thing. Detroit or Mississauga would be able to cite how many jobs are indirectly related to the automotive industry.

These days you could count backwards, figure out how many automakers lost jobs in Detroit and then how many in total. It's almost a sure bet they are indirectly related.

My initial numbers are what's commonly referred to as part of the legacy costs.
 
Foolmewunz said:
Oooh.... derail(apologies)....

I went to do a site visit at their York plant once. Someone was disassembling an old assembly line and selling it off and we were bidding on the shipping.

Harley made bombs in WWII. That's what we were looking at having to ship out - the old bomb assembly line. (Have no idea where it went, ultimately. We didn't win the bid.)
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They just built the casing, the explosive bits were produced by someone else. If H-D had built the whole bomb, we'd all be speaking German right now.

They also built RV's (Holiday Rambler) and were owned for a while by AMF, the sporting goods company.
 
I'm surprised that no one has commented on the difference between a company that is owned and operated where you live, and one which is foreign owned.

In Australia, we have a number of American car companies that build locally. They also use "transfer pricing" and other accounting tricks to export all the profits back to the USA (i.e. don't even pay tax on those profits here.)

So, from your point of view, an American company, that builds cars in America, is much better than a foreign car company that assembles cars in America.

Just a thought.

:)
 
Whenever some tells me to "Buy American", I usually reply with one of the following:

1) Doesn't being an American stand for the freedom to purchase what I like? Are you trying to take away another one of my freedoms? Would you be willing to trade one of your freedoms for one of mine?

2) I start reciting a list of things he/she no doubt has purchased that is not made in America (USA), adding a list of things I have that were made here, which usually starts a discussion of hypocrisy.

3) I ask, just what is left to purchase that's made here anymore?

... and if I'm in the mood, I give them all three arguments.
 
MikeMangum said:
My big question is this: is the flag decal made in America?
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Damn. That's where I was about to go.

Remember the Schwinn "all American" bicycle?
It wasn't; still isn't. Also, a horrible bike.

Funny about the Harley fetish, too.
Now, all the brands have bikes that look and sound like Harleys.

The "bikers" I knew in the 60's didn't do much motor-cycling. They mostly worked on their bikes, because they were crap. Their brand loyalty was sort of cute, but also sad. Now they are much older, and drive their hogs around on trailers, to various events, where they drive slowly up and down famous beach roads. Its the single gayest macho phenomena I've ever witnessed.
 
A mechanic was removing a cylinder head from the motor of a Harley motorcycle when he spotted a well-known heart surgeon in his shop.

The surgeon was there, waiting for the service manager to come and take a look at his bike.

The mechanic shouted across the garage, "Hey, Doc, can I ask you a question?"

The surgeon a bit surprised, walked over to the mechanic working on the motorcycle. The mechanic straightened up, wiped his hands on a rag and asked, "So Doc, look at this engine. I open its heart, take the valves out, fix 'em, put 'em back in, and when I finish, it works just like new. So how come I get such a small salary and you get the really big bucks, when you and I are doing basically the same work?"

The surgeon paused, smiled and leaned over, and whispered to the mechanic...

"Try doing it with the engine running."
 
quarky said:
The "bikers" I knew in the 60's didn't do much motor-cycling. They mostly worked on their bikes, because they were crap. Their brand loyalty was sort of cute, but also sad. Now they are much older, and drive their hogs around on trailers, to various events, where they drive slowly up and down famous beach roads. Its the single gayest macho phenomena I've ever witnessed.
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Amen, brother.

These are the people that slowly drove me out of the motorcycle industry. Dealing with them on a daily basis almost made me hate motorcycles.
 
Lisa Simpson said:
My last "American" car, a Dodge Caravan, was built in Canada. My last two "foreign" cars, a Toyota Sienna and a Toyota RAV 4 were both built in the US (Kentucky and Michigan, respectively).
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Yep, Toyota is turning out Tundras at an impressive rate right here in San Antonio.

ETA: sometimes. Sometimes they're on hiatus.
 
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