Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[LondonJohn]

I see that thoughtful is exploring this as well at PMF. It is interesting that this would fit in with the earlier time of death as argued in Raffaele's appeal. It would also render two of the witness testimonies basically useless. On second look, the whole prosecution case pretty much falls apart.

Not to mention that this ties in very well with the original coroner's belief that Meredith died within around three hours of her final substantial meal, since her English friends stated that this meal was taken at around 6-6.30pm. We adolescent groupies may be onto something

 

[Kestrel]

It is just more confusion; are there more than 2 latches involved with the entire assembly? It would seem to me that if none of them were closed and latched, the burglar would not need a rock. They would simply push the windows open.

There were three latches on the window.

The latch that kept the exterior shutters from being opened didn't work due to swelling of the wood on the shutters.

The latch that kept the actual window from being opened from the outside was latched, but could be easily unlatched once the glass was broken.

The latch that kept the interior shutters closed was not latched.

 

[LondonJohn]

Too bad that this burglar just blindly threw that rock instead of checking the window - just a little push with one hand and - Bingo! - open is that window!

But to be serious: he climbes the wall (let alone how) - he opens the shutters -
and he does not examine the window (latch, how to open and so on..)
just use that (much too large) rock - risking noise of splintering glass, risking cutting himself with glass)???
Must have been a bloody noob.
And finally,
what do you think would this burglar had in mind for his was out (think of carrying the theft)

No. Nobody is arguing that the window itself was open, or even unlatched.

And your use of the little phrase "let alone how" in regard to the climb is strange and unsupportable too.

And I imagine that any would-be burglar would hope to be able to open the front door from the inside, either through finding keys within the house or by encountering a front door which could be opened from the inside without a key. Failing that, I suppose he would reconcile himself to going out the way he came in, with a rucksack full of stolen items.

 

[LondonJohn]

Thoughtful is posting some very interesting stuff right now about how "messiah" Massei might have made a fundamental mistake in regard to the time that he "concludes" Knox let Sollecito and Guede into the house. Massei is starting to appear increasingly similar in his intellectual analysis to the jurors in the OJ Simpson trial

 

[Kestrel]

Some more details could have been helpful: such as: estimate age (old, young, middle-aged),figure (tall, small, slim, stout), hairstyle (curly hair, straight hair) how long has she been present at that ingerrogation?, has she been present at previous interrogations?.

The description was accurate enough for the Italian courts to determine which specific policewoman had been defamed.

So we are glad to be far away on the vastness of the internet and our personality is hidden by nicknames.


[/HILITE]

Have you exact prove that this (the US consulate would be very interested to get the details)

Have you ever watched any police brutality or perjury charge unfold? In this country, the police rally around the accused and the legal system bends over backwards to give the police every chance to escape the charges. I would assume it's not much different in Italy.

Assume that the police did go over the line in an Italian interrogation. How would the suspect prove this in a system where there are no recordings, no witnesses besides the police and even saying that police abuse happened is considered a crime?

 

[Dan O.]

However, if someone can post a link to a combination lockset which allows for the latch to be operated via the same key which operates the deadbolt, I'll be all ears (or eyes).

I think you will find sufficient examples with the search string: "Key outside operates both bolts" since that is the text the ANSI/BHMA A156.13 Standard for Mortise Locks and Latches uses to describe the function. What would be more helpful would be to find the actual installation guide for the Corbin lock in use on the cottage.

 

[katy_did]

I thought Filomena mentioned closing the outside shutters, the black shutters, but couldn't fully close them because of wood swell.
And then she was referring to the inside shutters, the white shutters, when she stated she wasn't sure about the shutter being latched, or not. She wasn't sure if both the inside shutters, the white shutters, were both even closed fully. (Micheli report?)

Maybe I'm mistaken, but isn't there a latch on the white/inside shutters, at the lower of the window frame? I had always thought this was the latch she was referring to.

I think Filomena said that neither set of shutters were latched (and as you say, that the outer set wouldn't latch anyway because they wouldn't close properly). Here's the bit Dan O quoted earlier from the Micheli report, which I think is the bit you're talking about:

...Ricordava di averne certamente chiusi i vetri, lasciando invece probabilmente gli scuri aperti: delle persiane, pur non essendone sicura al cento per cento, riteneva di averle chiuse senza tuttavia ancorarle entrambe, dal momento che l’imposta di sinistra incontrava resistenza sul davanzale a causa di un rigonfiamento del legno. Il suo ricordo non era più preciso, in quanto reputava di avere sicuramente aperto le imposte la mattina avendo bisogno di luce per cambiarsi (...) ma si era poi allontanata di fretta perché si trovava già in ritardo.

"...She remembered having certainly closed the window, but probably leaving the [inner] shutters open: although she couldn't be 100% sure, she thought she had closed the [outer] shutters without anchoring both, since the left shutter met resistance on the sill because of a swelling of the wood. Her memory was no longer accurate, as she remembered having certainly opened the shutters that morning having needed light to change (...) but had left in a hurry because she was already late".

 

[katy_did]

It is certainly possible that the exterior door handle could be (or could have been) operable. It isn't any sort of a standard configuration, and would require a lockset specifically designed for the purpose. (This is as opposed to locksets which are generally designed to accommodate a wide range of configurations, and require only adjustments within the lock body mechanism to implement or disable different features.) I haven't run across one such myself, but I don't claim to have encountered every sort of lockset, just a great deal of them.

The fact that the interior handle is a lever handle, and the exterior a knob isn't relevant. Both function exactly the same as far as a lock mechanism is concerned. The difference stops at the surface of the door. Both, when operable, rotate a shaft extending into the body of the lock.
(...)
I still haven't seen the grooves that you are referring to. The link you included in your earlier response to me did not seem to go to a photograph which showed what you intended me to see.

It may be that you are discussing "vertical deadbolts", or "flush bolts" (two different but similar things). But at this point I'm just guessing. This could take the discussion rather far afield, and without seeing some more specific pictures within the context of the Knox apt. door I can't provide any enlightenment.

OK, thanks for that. Here's a link again to the picture I'm talking about. It shows the new tenant of the cottage standing in the doorway, and you can see the door frame with the grooves at top and bottom. I don't think it's either of the two things you mention, but looks to me like an additional security lock operated by the handle (at least, that's the case with the similar mechanism on our doors), which is what makes me wonder if the outer handle was functional too. If so, it seems to me that even if the door handles didn't work with the latch, they may still have been needed to lock the door, in that you might have had to lift up the handle/turn it a particular way before the key could be turned.

 

[Mrs.Columbo]

And finally,
what do you think would this burglar had in mind for his was out (think of carrying the theft)

Sorry, too many typos, shall read:
what do you think would have had this burglar in mind for his way out (think of carrying the theft)

 

[katy_did]

thank you for the explanation!

but what does it mean now? does the 00.10 ping mean the phone 'arrived' in this particular area at that time or could the phone have been lying around there for let's say two hours as well?

and where was the phone at 22.13?

According to Frank's report on the cell phone expert's testimony, the reason the phone pinged at 00:10 is because Meredith's dad tried to call her: "Late at night Meredith's father suddenly feels like talking to his daughter and he calls her at 00:10." I think it could've been in the garden several hours before that, but the pings weren't recorded because nothing was happening with the phone.

As for the 22.13 activity, technically I think the phone could've been either in the house or already in the garden (or on the way there) but the defence seem to be arguing that it was probably in the garden by that time. I haven't looked at that section of the appeal yet, but judging from the discussion on PMF it sounds as if Meredith's phone didn't usually contact that particularly cell phone tower, so that even if it was possible it could've done so from the cottage the most likely reason is that it was already in or on the way to the garden. Personally I think that might've been when the phones were thrown into the garden, especially if the couple of earlier calls were made when the person first took them from the cottage (the timing is about right, ten minutes or so to get to there).

 

[Supernaut]

At night, in the dark, it's doubtful this window would be the one selected IMO, especially if an intruder had to do multiple climbs to access the house through it. Especially not Rudy! He had been to the house a number of times, knew it's layout and would have selected the window above the balcony, the exact same type of window above a balcony he selected if it was indeed him who broke into the lawyer's office. Anything else sounds like utter nonsense and grasping at straws. Why would he not select the easier window above the balcony as he was used to doing?

On at least two occasions shortly before Meredith's murder, someone was seen lurking outside the cottage at night (once by Meredith herself, IIRC).

I don't find it hard to imagine Rudy whiled would have been whiling away some of his ample free time casing suitable targets.

And given the "thing" he apprarently had for foreign female students, and the specific interest he had expressed to the 'boys downstairs' in both Amanda and Meredith, perhaps he found the time for a little stalking while he was at it.

 

[RoseMontague]

Another question about the cell phones. The appeal makes note of the unsuccessful call to voicemail. It appears that Massei is suggesting this call was dropped to save money. Was there a discussion somewhere of what type of calling plan Meredith had on that phone (unlimited or limited number of minutes, how many minutes she used, was this considered a higher rate international call?). It appears she called home sometimes several times in a day. It would seem to me she probably had a pretty good plan to account for these type of calls. If anyone recalls seeing this information, please pass that on.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Not sure about your math. The presence of 2 white blood cells implies the presence of many more red blood cells, inasmuch as the red cells are much more abundant.

Who said anything about 'white' blood cells? I didn't. I said 'blood cells', which means any type of blood cell. This is what I wrote, point out the white blood cell part if you can:

And since the DNA tested material amounted to only between zero and 10 cells, what would your 20% that were subjected to the blood test have amounted to? At MAXIMUM, it would be about two cells and was most probably less. And of those, which came from a sample that probably contained mixed types of cells, how high are the odds that any of the blood cells will have fallen into that catchment? And only if your exceptionally lucky and win the odds the maximum you may expect is 'one' blood cell. Of course you're never going to get a positive with a blood test.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6094698&postcount=3228

Why then are you going on about white cells?

The 20% amounted to 20% of ALL the material on the blade extracted from the scratch, 20% of 0 - 10 cells. Some of those cells may have been blood cells, some of them may not. But no matter the number of blood cells between 0 - 10, 20% of that 0 - 10 is not going to be enough to register a positive blood test.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Both of these photos were taken after the scene was investigated. You are assuming that the police who sealed the crime scene didn't fix the shutters so they could be properly closed. Or as Dan suggested, wire them closed. It's also probable that they would have boarded up the broken window

Sure, the police would have arrived at the cottage with a 'police carpenter' with his handy plane in his back pocket.

Why would they bother fixing the outside shutters?

Rudy had been to the cottage before and visited the boys who lived in the downstairs apartment. I have heard nothing to indicate he was ever in the apartment upstairs before the night of the murder. We know he was there on the night of the murder because of the bloody handprint he left in the victims blood.

[/b]If Rudy was considering burglary of the cottage, he would have noticed the defective shutter as a potential entry point[/b]. The window above the balcony didn't have that problem. They shutter could be properly latched meaning that a burglar would have to tear open the shutter as well as break the window. The nearest streetlight is on that side of the cottage and lights up the balcony. The window that was broken is in the shadows at night.

How would he have known the shutter was defective unless he tried to close it himself?

The balcony cannot be viewed from the road or from any of the neighbouring flats.

And I find it rather ironic that you claim he didn't go in through the balcony/kitchen window route because he didn't want to be seen...but are only too happy to argue he did a spiderman up to Filomena's room in full view of the flats across the street, anyone walking or driving down the road, anyone on the top level of the car park across the road or anyone entering the cottage via the drive or indeed anyone exiting the cottage.

 

[Fulcanelli]

No. Nobody is arguing that the window itself was open, or even unlatched.

And your use of the little phrase "let alone how" in regard to the climb is strange and unsupportable too.

And I imagine that any would-be burglar would hope to be able to open the front door from the inside, either through finding keys within the house or by encountering a front door which could be opened from the inside without a key. Failing that, I suppose he would reconcile himself to going out the way he came in, with a rucksack full of stolen items.

Where was Rudy's rucksak then? And why did he leave with it so empty?

 

[odeed]

Odeed,

The simulated strangulation experiment was done with periods between the force and the sampling were 1, 5, 10, 15, 30 and 60 min, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 24 and 48 h and 3, 4, 5, and 10 days. When they used SGMplus, they observed a full profile of the offender 7 out of 29 times. When they used LCN all 17 experiments yielded offender profiles, with the majority being partial profiles. I’ll look into your other questions and let you know if I find out anything.

halides1,

Thank you, the 17 tests that yielded profiles from LCN testing were probably the 7 offender/victim and 10 no DNA results that were found by standard testing (12 were just victim). I was not aware of the sampling periods used, was SGMplus used throughout this period (1 min to 10 days) or was there a cutoff where the SGMplus was used, and does this indicate how long after an assault standard testing can be used?

In the Rutty 2002 study, I also believe the volunteers necks and hands were cleaned prior to the experiments to minimise unknown DNA, but some of the results still showed a low level of unknown DNA, which raised the question of the validity of swabbing for offender DNA from the study.

I do not think you will find any real world legal cases to back up your expectations, since this is an area which is still being investigated with more recent academic studies into DNA left on a victim after an assault.

 

[LondonJohn]

I think you will find sufficient examples with the search string: "Key outside operates both bolts" since that is the text the ANSI/BHMA A156.13 Standard for Mortise Locks and Latches uses to describe the function. What would be more helpful would be to find the actual installation guide for the Corbin lock in use on the cottage.

I think you will find that the Corbin lock catalogue indicates quite well that all its locks which resemble the one at the cottage have independent latch and cylinder mechanisms:

http://www.mul-t-lock.co.uk/uploads/file/pdfs/Corbin/Corbin locks.pdf

The locks which resemble the one in the cottage are all advertised separate of the cylinder assembly, which must be purchased separately. The cylinders advised for all these types of locks are the type which move just a deadbolt.

 

[Dan O.]

At night, in the dark, it's doubtful this window would be the one selected IMO...

...

The quoted section in the above reply was incompletely trimmed in my earlier post and should be attributed to Danceme.

 

[LondonJohn]

Another question about the cell phones. The appeal makes note of the unsuccessful call to voicemail. It appears that Massei is suggesting this call was dropped to save money. Was there a discussion somewhere of what type of calling plan Meredith had on that phone (unlimited or limited number of minutes, how many minutes she used, was this considered a higher rate international call?). It appears she called home sometimes several times in a day. It would seem to me she probably had a pretty good plan to account for these type of calls. If anyone recalls seeing this information, please pass that on.

Also, this "dropped to save money" explanation makes absolutely no sense at all. It might have made sense if this was Meredith's first week in Italy, and she dialled her UK voicemail without thinking about it, then suddenly thought "uh oh, this is going to cost me a lot of money." But this was more than six weeks into her stay in Italy.

By this time, she would either have reconciled herself to picking up (and paying) or not picking up her UK voicemail messages. Why, on this particular evening, would she have thought "Oooh, I'll call my UK voicemail", dialled the international number, then had second thoughts? Makes no sense at all.

Also, did she usually call the UK from her Italian phone or her UK one? If she was cost-conscious, she would almost certainly have used her Italian phone for almost every call (both within Italy and to UK), since her UK phone would have been subject to then-penal international roaming rates.

I suspect, therefore, that once Meredith had been given a phone with an Italian SIM, she would have kept the UK phone on only for urgent incoming calls. I suspect that virtually all her outgoing calls would have been made from her Italian phone. But the police would have the phone records to confirm or deny that suspicion. Have they released the records? Did Meredith make many outgoing calls from her UK phone (whether local or to the UK) in the days leading up to her murder?

 

[LondonJohn]

I can't wait for the English language version of the Massei report.