SS Killer Protected By German Govt.

[Harpo]

While having a cuppa at work I flicked through one of the newspapers and found this story:

"Faber was sentenced to death after being convicted of war crimes in 1947. But his sentence was commuted to life imprisonment, and in 1952 he escaped from prison in Breda, Holland, and fled to sanctuary in Germany.

Demands by Britain and other nations to hand over Faber - listed as the fifth most-wanted Nazi fugitive - have since been rejected by Germany.
Incredibly, officials still protect the Dutch-born killer and insist he is immune from extradition after Hitler granted him German citizenship as an SS volunteer."

Source: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3040698/Nazi-executioner-strolls-in-park.html

Some background on Faber: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaas_Carel_Faber

I had no idea that Germany would protect a degenerate like that for so long, especially as he seems to be hiding behind a law that Hitler introduced.

Thoughts?

 

[dtugg]

9/11-investigator's father?

 

[Naddig74]

Thoughts?

*********.

 

[Lamafarmer]

I had no idea that Germany would protect a degenerate like that for so long, especially as he seems to be hiding behind a law that Hitler introduced.

He is not hiding behind the edict which made him a German citizen. He is protected by our constitution, which states German citizens are generally not to be extradited, unless when a law stipulates a divergent procedure to extradite to a member of the European Union, or an international court. Apparently he doesn't fall into the latter categories.

 

[Harpo]

"Faber became a German in 1943 under the "Fuhrer's Law" - a personal decree granting German citizenship to foreign Nazi volunteers.

It is the only one of Hitler's laws never to have been revoked, and Germany still uses it to deny repeated attempts to return Faber to prison in the Netherlands."

The German Govt should hand him over to the Netherlands immediately and let him stand trial for his crimes. Surely there can't be a lot to gain by sheltering him?

 

[Aepervius]

"Faber became a German in 1943 under the "Fuhrer's Law" - a personal decree granting German citizenship to foreign Nazi volunteers.

It is the only one of Hitler's laws never to have been revoked, and Germany still uses it to deny repeated attempts to return Faber to prison in the Netherlands."

The German Govt should hand him over to the Netherlands immediately and let him stand trial for his crimes. Surely there can't be a lot to gain by sheltering him?

Just a nitpick, although emotionally I agree with you, one need to stand back from emotion and see one things : once the government break or ignore the law for some people, there is no turning back. Therefore , like freedom of speech applied to even those from whom one dislike the speech, and even if it is a Nazi law which was never repelled, as long as it stands it should be enforced. No exception.

That said, maybe it is time to replace it with the same law, with an exception for crime against humanity for example.

Oh, and PS: as far as i can tell the US has similar law making extremely difficult, if not downright impossible to extradite US citizen or US military. IIRC this is why the rapist of Okinawa teenager were never extradited to Japan.

 

[Cainkane1]

He is not hiding behind the edict which made him a German citizen. He is protected by our constitution, which states German citizens are generally not to be extradited, unless when a law stipulates a divergent procedure to extradite to a member of the European Union, or an international court. Apparently he doesn't fall into the latter categories.

Why don't you germans put him in a german prison?

 

[Lamafarmer]

That's the part I don't understand and which is not clear to me. I read two articles on this, both German, and apparently he was prosecuted but it went nowhere. I think a law that would make it possible to extradite him to the Netherlands was passed in 2002. Has any country pursued extradition as recent as that?

 

[Rasmus]

"Faber became a German in 1943 under the "Fuhrer's Law" - a personal decree granting German citizenship to foreign Nazi volunteers.

It is the only one of Hitler's laws never to have been revoked,

There are many laws from that period still on the German books.
One example revealed by a quick search: It is illegal for non-lawyers to give legal advice. Apparently, the law was introduced to prevent Jews from earning money in the legal field.

I don't know which laws have been declared by Hitler personally - but I don't see that it matters, either.

I actually doubt we have a law that grants citizenship to all those volunteering in our war - but I'll be happy to be shown wrong.

What I'm sure is true is that we don't run around taking citizenship away from people once it has been granted.

and Germany still uses it to deny repeated attempts to return Faber to prison in the Netherlands.

the law? Hardly. The citizenship. Certainly.

The German Govt should hand him over to the Netherlands immediately and let him stand trial for his crimes. Surely there can't be a lot to gain by sheltering him?

Other than that silly little idea of the rule of law meaning anything at all, no, I guess not.

 

[Rasmus]

Why don't you germans put him in a german prison?

Because he has been tried in Germany and found not guilty.

I did not find any details toward that case and cannot say if the trial was lacking - but that means we're not only looking at a German citizen here, but one who has been found innocent of the crimes you want him extradicted or put in prison for.

Seems to be a difficult thing to do, legally.

I assume it might have been easier if he had never been on trial here, but I assume that wouldn't have been generally appreciated, either.

 

[ddt]

The reason Klaas Carel Faber got German citizenship was because he joined the SS. Let's rephrase that: the reason he got German citizenship was because he was member of a criminal organization. The latter is not my invention; it's the verdict of the Nuremberg trials that the SS was a criminal organization.

That wording may, IMHO, give enough justification for renouncing his citizenship, or for that matter, all German citizenships obtained that way. However, the German justice system has never accepted the verdicts of Nuremberg.

Moreover, Faber had fled from a Dutch prison where he served a sentence for multiple murder.

Faber is not the only Dutchman who got into safety this way. Herbertus Bikker is another one. He's been in the news the last couple of years. German justice wanted to prosecute him, but he got away by reason of being "unfit for trial". Never mind that he was fit enough to threaten journalists with waving his cane.

A third one is Heinrich Boere. He was fit for trial and he was sentenced. At the moment, he's appealing the verdict.

 

[ddt]

Because he has been tried in Germany and found not guilty.

I did not find any details toward that case and cannot say if the trial was lacking - but that means we're not only looking at a German citizen here, but one who has been found innocent of the crimes you want him extradicted or put in prison for.

Seems to be a difficult thing to do, legally.

I assume it might have been easier if he had never been on trial here, but I assume that wouldn't have been generally appreciated, either.

AFAIK, Faber has never been tried in Germany. You may be confusing him with Bikker, who got away by fainting in court and thus being "unfit for trial". I'm incredulous, to say the least, and a couple too many war criminals have gotten away with that. Anyway, Bikker wasn't found "not guilty" either.

The German justice system has been far too long reluctant to prosecute these people. It's good to see they've changed that in the last ten years, but it's a bit late now. I hope no-one gets the idea to even think about parole. They've already had 65 years of parole, so to say.

 

[Rasmus]

The reason Klaas Carel Faber got German citizenship was because he joined the SS. Let's rephrase that: the reason he got German citizenship was because he was member of a criminal organization. The latter is not my invention; it's the verdict of the Nuremberg trials that the SS was a criminal organization.

It was not considered a criminal organisation at the time and by the government that granted him citizenship, though.

That wording may, IMHO, give enough justification for renouncing his citizenship, or for that matter, all German citizenships obtained that way. However, the German justice system has never accepted the verdicts of Nuremberg.

I don't see how that would have been sufficient.

Moreover, Faber had fled from a Dutch prison where he served a sentence for multiple murder.

Yes.

Fleeing from prison as such is not even a crime in Germany.

Faber is not the only Dutchman who got into safety this way. Herbertus Bikker is another one. He's been in the news the last couple of years. German justice wanted to prosecute him, but he got away by reason of being "unfit for trial". Never mind that he was fit enough to threaten journalists with waving his cane.

So?

A third one is Heinrich Boere. He was fit for trial and he was sentenced. At the moment, he's appealing the verdict.

 

[Rasmus]

AFAIK, Faber has never been tried in Germany.

Sloppy reading on my part. The case didn't go to trial, but the prosecution did try.

The German justice system has been far too long reluctant to prosecute these people. It's good to see they've changed that in the last ten years, but it's a bit late now. I hope no-one gets the idea to even think about parole. They've already had 65 years of parole, so to say.

Again, you might find yourself in conflict with those pesky laws.

What you suggest doesn't even make any sense, strictly speaking. Parole is for first time offenders. If they indeed had 65years of parole, you'd more than likely have to conclude that there is no further point in a prison sentence. The accused might well be seen as rehabilitated with no further chance of more rehabilitation happening in prison.

German law prescribes a life long prison term for murder; parole is only possible for sentences up to two years.

 

[ddt]

It was not considered a criminal organisation at the time and by the government that granted him citizenship, though.

I don't see how that would have been sufficient.

If the political will had been there, Germany could easily have passed a law that renounced these SS-citizenships. There hardly are absolutes in law - see, e.g., the various discussions here about free speech. I think I gave quite a compelling argument why in this case, such a law would be justified.

And OTOH, the German justice system has been quite reluctant to prosecute these cases, resulting in them walking free from their crimes. As I said before, this attitude has changed in the last ten years. See also this Dutch newspaper article from last year:

Het is onacceptabel dat Faber op grond van een decreet van nazileider Hitler uit 1943 niet aan Nederland wordt uitgeleverd, stelde de liberale ex-minister Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger donderdag.

It is unacceptable that Faber won't be extradited to Holland by reason of Hitler's 1943 decree, said FDP ex-Justice Minister Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberg on Thursday.

Fleeing from prison as such is not even a crime in Germany.

Probably the same in Holland. However, when a neighbour state with which you're in good standing wants someone extradited, you might go the extra mile to find reasons to extradite him. For my part, throw him back over the border because he had illegally passed it (yes he did). After all, we're not speaking here of a petty thief, but a multiple murdered who had been convicted to death for it.

So?

Colour me a bit unimpressed - see also my previous post.

 

[Rasmus]

If the political will had been there, Germany could easily have passed a law that renounced these SS-citizenships.

No, it wouldn't have been "easy" at all.

To begin with, our constitution forbids it. citizenship cannot be revoked.

(That's precisely one sentence before the constitution forbids extraditions that are not covered by specific laws or do not relate to other EU countries or international courts.)

 

[Aepervius]

"ou might go the extra mile to find reasons to extradite him."


And once you have made that extra mile, all law are worseless as they can be broken by doing a few more inches.

There is a reason to refuse to break the law for even the worst scum on earth.

 

[ddt]

No, it wouldn't have been "easy" at all.

To begin with, our constitution forbids it. citizenship cannot be revoked.

(That's precisely one sentence before the constitution forbids extraditions that are not covered by specific laws or do not relate to other EU countries or international courts.)

I stand corrected. Reading the text leaves me a bit confused, though. Here's the relevant article 16, paragraph 1, with its historical changes:

Artikel 16.
(1) [1] Die deutsche Staatsangehörigkeit darf nicht entzogen werden. [2] Der Verlust der Staatsangehörigkeit darf nur auf Grund eines Gesetzes und gegen den Willen des Betroffenen nur dann eintreten, wenn der Betroffene dadurch nicht staatenlos wird.

The first sentence seems to say, in absolute sense, that citizenship cannot be revoked. The second, however, says, that loss of citizenship only can occur by reason of law and against the will of the victim, when he doesn't become stateless.

That second sentence implies to me that the first sentence is not absolute, but that a law as I suggested would be constitutional - at least for those former SS-members who'd still have or regain their other citizenship. AFAIK, Faber was convicted as a Dutch national.

ETA: this first paragraph is unchanged since the first version of 1949.

Then there's also paragraph 2 (same link):

(2) [1] Kein Deutscher darf an das Ausland ausgeliefert werden. 2[2] Durch Gesetz kann eine abweichende Regelung für Auslieferungen an einen Mitgliedstaat der Europäischen Union oder an einen internationalen Gerichtshof getroffen werden, soweit rechtsstaatliche Grundsätze gewahrt sind.

The second sentence applies since 2nd December 2000. That also gives an escape clause. Pass a law that says "German nationals that are suspected of WW2 crimes in other EU states can be evicted."

 

[ddt]

"ou might go the extra mile to find reasons to extradite him."

And once you have made that extra mile, all law are worseless as they can be broken by doing a few more inches.

There is a reason to refuse to break the law for even the worst scum on earth.

Did I say doing something unlawful? Lawyers routinely try to find loopholes and technicalities to get their clients free. So what would be wrong with a public prosecutor to go the extra mile to find a technicality on which to extradite someone? That's the same stuff. There would still be a court needed to affirm the extradition.

 

[Rasmus]

I stand corrected. Reading the text leaves me a bit confused, though. Here's the relevant article 16, paragraph 1, with its historical changes:

The first sentence seems to say, in absolute sense, that citizenship cannot be revoked. The second, however, says, that loss of citizenship only can occur by reason of law and against the will of the victim, when he doesn't become stateless.

Yes.

That second sentence implies to me that the first sentence is not absolute,

You're wrong.

One can lose their citizenship in a number of ways, but none of these means it is being actively revoked.

AFAIK I would lose my citizenship if I went and obtaiend another - dual citicenship has long been impossible in Germany. I think this may have changed recently, though. At least to degree.

but that a law as I suggested would be constitutional - at least for those former SS-members who'd still have or regain their other citizenship. AFAIK, Faber was convicted as a Dutch national.

And you see no problem in creating laws specifically to make things illegal that are currently legal just so that someone can be thrown into prison?

If any such law would ever be passed to prevent a future repeating of such events, it would most certainly contain a grace period.

The second sentence applies since 2nd December 2000. That also gives an escape clause. Pass a law that says "German nationals that are suspected of WW2 crimes in other EU states can be evicted."

Yes, simply overthrow the rule of law as you see fit. Easy peasy, no problem at all.