• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

The physics toolkit

Tony Szamboti said:
Send me your e-mail address by PM so I can attach the file.
Click to expand...

Sorry to get personal, but based on the clear implications of one or two of your earlier posts I wouldn't trust you with that information. I suggest you submit it to the Journal of 9/11 Studies; if you tell them it proves that 9/11 was an inside job, I'm sure they'll be happy to publish it.

Dave
 
pgimeno said:
And if not?

Can you please tell us how to set up a top-down demolition that does not involve momentum transfer causing deceleration or jolts?

In another message you say:


How does the loss of integrity of the joints avoid velocity loss by momentum transfer?

Plus, you're absolutely wrong about the Verinage demolitions. Have you read the patent? They apply to buildings with load-bearing walls, which are set up to give way simultaneously using jacks (vérins) and cables.
Click to expand...

If the structural joint integrity is being removed the structure cannot resist the static load on it and there would not be the momentum transfer required to overcome the reserve strength.

The Verinage demolitions unnaturally remove the support of a couple of stories with hydraulics or cables, but they are not removing the structural integrity of the building below prior to impact. For that portion of the collapse they are using natural momentum transfer and a resultant amplified load to crush it. To get the amplified load requires deceleration, which is observed in every Verinage demolition.

Somehow I have a feeling you are being intentionally dense, like many here seem to be. This isn't a hard concept.

It is getting quite old talking to a bunch of anonymous people who obviously don't want to be objective.
 
Last edited:
Dave Rogers said:
Sorry to get personal, but based on the clear implications of one or two of your earlier posts I wouldn't trust you with that information. I suggest you submit it to the Journal of 9/11 Studies; if you tell them it proves that 9/11 was an inside job, I'm sure they'll be happy to publish it.

Dave
Click to expand...

That's a shame Dave. I haven't been unprofessional with anyone I have been involved with on this issue and I don't see what you are basing your concern on.
 
Dave Rogers said:
Demanding of someone repeatedly where they work is, to say the least, cause for concern, in the light of the recent history of this forum.

Dave
Click to expand...

I was just asking if you had a job other than posting on this forum, as it seems like you do it fulltime.

I didn't ask for the actual name of a company or agency you might work for separately from your work posting on this forum.

It was hard to understand why you declined to answer this general question.
 
Last edited:
Tony Szamboti said:
I am talking about sending the Tracker data file and video.

I don't have a place to put it on the Internet.

I can send it to you using MegaUpload and you can post it if you like.
Click to expand...
Sure why not. (although I'm not really sure why you just don't post the upload link).
 
DGM said:
Sure why not. (although I'm not really sure why you just don't post the upload link).
Click to expand...

I only have it on my hard drive. It is not posted on the Internet anywhere. When I have used it, MegaUpload required it to be sent to an e-mail address.
 
Tony Szamboti said:
I only have it on my hard drive. It is not posted on the Internet anywhere. When I have used it, MegaUpload required it to be sent to an e-mail address.
Click to expand...

Megaupload does not require anything. Just upload.

It's only text.

Post it here in a code tag if you're struggling with a simple MU upload.

Like this...
Code: 
time (s)	drop (ft)
0.0000	0.0000
0.0167	0.0210
0.0334	0.0372
0.0501	0.0200
0.0667	0.0445
0.0834	0.0677
0.1001	0.1116
0.1168	0.2130
0.1335	0.0648
0.1502	0.2053
0.1668	0.0513
0.1835	0.1808
0.2002	0.0603
0.2169	0.2068
0.2336	0.0955
0.2503	0.2330
0.2669	0.1317
0.2836	0.2585
0.3003	0.1028
0.3170	0.2847
0.3337	0.0892
0.3504	0.2082
0.3670	0.0515
0.3837	0.1362
0.4004	0.0614
0.4171	0.1334
0.4338	0.0343
0.4505	0.1044
0.4671	0.0533
0.4838	0.1348
0.5005	0.0694
0.5172	0.1427
0.5339	0.0482
0.5506	0.1145
0.5672	0.0171
0.5839	0.1009
0.6006	0.0229
0.6173	0.0332
0.6340	0.0111
0.6507	0.0724
0.6673	-0.0042
0.6840	-0.0242
0.7007	-0.0016
0.7174	-0.0972
0.7341	-0.0015
0.7508	-0.0778
0.7674	-0.0173
0.7841	-0.1017
0.8008	0.0286
0.8175	-0.0124
0.8342	0.0417
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0.8675	0.0000
0.8842	0.0044
0.9009	0.0205
0.9176	0.0021
0.9343	0.0116
0.9510	-0.0160
0.9676	0.0175
0.9843	-0.0177
1.0010	0.0091
1.0177	-0.0179
1.0344	0.0357
1.0511	0.0462
1.0677	0.0290
1.0844	0.1479
1.1011	0.0639
1.1178	0.1129
1.1345	0.0456
1.1512	0.1008
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1.1845	0.1765
1.2012	0.0123
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1.2346	-0.0005
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1.3013	-0.0025
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DGM said:
Send it to me. I should be able to find someone to host it.
Click to expand...

I sent the video and Tracker data file to you.

If you don't have it you will need to download the free Tracker program from the Open Source Physics Project to read the file. Just google the Open Source Physics Project and go to Tools on the website and you can download Tracker.
 
Last edited:
Dave Rogers said:
Because there is a previous instance of someone on this forum being harrassed at their place of work by someone who disagreed with them.

Dave
Click to expand...

I have not, nor would I ever engage in such unethical behavior and you should know that, but it is your choice not to be open.

Again, I did not ask for the specific name or location of where you work, only if you had another job besides posting on this forum.
 
Tracker unfortunately uses a right awkward XML export format for all of it's data, which severely limits the usefulness.

Without the ability to export the data in a more commonly useful format, there's all sorts of procedures that cannot be performed, and you're stuck with *what tracker does* or *nowt*.

The simple process of subtracting static feature position from trace data is one action that is not possible.

I have an ancient version of Office :( which won't import XML files.

If anyone can import xml and write out the tracker point data in a useful format...?
 
Tony Szamboti said:
If the structural joint integrity is being removed the structure cannot resist the static load on it and there would not be the momentum transfer required to overcome the reserve strength.
Click to expand...
How so? I thought that the momentum transfer was related to the impact of the upper block with each floor, because of the mass of that floor.

Tony Szamboti said:
It is getting quite old talking to a bunch of anonymous people who obviously don't want to be objective.
Click to expand...
Just as a reminder, my whole name is Pedro Gimeno Fortea, as I already told you once. It's even stated in my public profile.
 
femr2 said:
If anyone can import xml and write out the tracker point data in a useful format...?
Click to expand...
I have a version of office that can import xml if you want me to do it. I just need to know which export format you want. If office doesn't work there's always dreamweaver
 
Last edited:
Grizzly Bear said:
I have a version of office that can import xml if you want me to do it. I just need to know which export format you want. If office doesn't work there's always dreamweaver
Click to expand...

Thanks. I'm hoping Tony will post the Tracker XML export here, but for info the format of the data is...

Code: 
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.TrackerPanel">
    <property name="tracks" type="collection" class="java.util.ArrayList">
        <property name="item" type="object">
        <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass">
            <property name="mass" type="double">1.0</property>
            <property name="name" type="string">mass A</property>
            <property name="color" type="object">
            <object class="java.awt.Color">
                <property name="red" type="int">255</property>
                <property name="green" type="int">0</property>
                <property name="blue" type="int">0</property>
                <property name="alpha" type="int">255</property>
            </object>
            </property>
            <property name="footprint" type="string">Footprint.Diamond</property>
            <property name="visible" type="boolean">true</property>
            <property name="trail" type="boolean">true</property>
            <property name="framedata" type="array" class="[Lorg.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData;">
                <property name="[0]" type="object">
                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData">
                    <property name="x" type="double">169.4358306188925</property>
                    <property name="y" type="double">272.56938110749184</property>
                </object>
                </property>
                <property name="[1]" type="object">
                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData">
                    <property name="x" type="double">167.43452768729645</property>
                    <property name="y" type="double">270.56807817589583</property>
                </object>
                </property>
                <property name="[2]" type="object">
                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData">
                    <property name="x" type="double">167.45509282655848</property>
                    <property name="y" type="double">270.57683858594464</property>
                </object>
                </property>
                <property name="[3]" type="object">
                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData">
                    <property name="x" type="double">167.50888529948486</property>
                    <property name="y" type="double">270.58898572756107</property>
                </object>
                </property>
                <property name="[4]" type="object">
                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData">
                    <property name="x" type="double">167.6260052644111</property>
                    <property name="y" type="double">270.6059304400288</property>
                </object>
                </property>
                <property name="[5]" type="object">
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                    <property name="x" type="double">168.0152068460198</property>
                    <property name="y" type="double">270.58400946297945</property>
                </object>
                </property>
                <property name="[6]" type="object">
                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData">
                    <property name="x" type="double">168.30673712107017</property>
                    <property name="y" type="double">270.5898519186658</property>
                </object>
                </property>
                <property name="[7]" type="object">
                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData">
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                </object>
                </property>
                <property name="[8]" type="object">
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                    <property name="y" type="double">270.6000769987073</property>
                </object>
                </property>
                <property name="[9]" type="object">
                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData">
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                    <property name="y" type="double">270.6213227470911</property>
                </object>
                </property>
                <property name="[10]" type="object">
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                </object>
                </property>
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                </object>
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                </object>
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                </object>
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                </object>
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                </object>
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                </object>
                </property>
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                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData">
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                </object>
                </property>
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                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData">
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                </object>
                </property>
                <property name="[24]" type="object">
                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData">
                    <property name="x" type="double">173.57325658072295</property>
                    <property name="y" type="double">269.72709546936403</property>
                </object>
                </property>
            </property>
        </object>
        </property>
    </property>
</object>

I'd simply be after the x, y property values as a comma/tab/space separated list.
 
femr2 said:
Thanks. I'm hoping Tony will post the Tracker XML export here, but for info the format of the data is...


I'd simply be after the x, y property values as a comma/tab/space separated list.
Click to expand...
Tony sent me the file but I haven't had time to do any thing with it. The data file is small (only 19K) so if you wan't me to send it to you (or anyone else) just let me know.
 
Last edited:
DGM said:
Tony sent me the file but I haven't had time to do any thing with it. The data file is small (only 19K) so if you wan't me to send it to you (or anyone else) just let me know.
Click to expand...

If you could put the contents of the file into a code tag here it would be useful thanks.

(I can always extract the values one way or another. XML files are plain-text. Open it in wordpad or similar and C&P. Then it's done for all, one way or another.)
 
pgimeno said:
How so? I thought that the momentum transfer was related to the impact of the upper block with each floor, because of the mass of that floor.


Just as a reminder, my whole name is Pedro Gimeno Fortea, as I already told you once. It's even stated in my public profile.
Click to expand...

Pedro, I am sure you understand what happens when the legs or necessary vertical support is pulled from under something. The onject falls without impacting anything and there is no deceleration until the object hits something which is more than strong enough to support it, like the ground. That is the essence of what the measurements show appears to have been occurred in the collapse of WTC 1. The structure appears to have been weakened to the point where it could not support its static load and fell at about 2/3rds the rate of gravity. Some small resistance remained but it was not enough to support the static load, so the building simply collapsed through the weakened structure.

This can easily be done by placing demolition devices in a timed fashion to weaken the structure just prior to impact, so that it continues its fall without decelerating. My opinion on this is that it was done this way without using impacts for reliability, to ensure it would not possibly arrest.
 
Last edited:
femr2 said:
If you could put the contents of the file into a code tag here it would be useful thanks.

(I can always extract the values one way or another. XML files are plain-text. Open it in wordpad or similar and C&P. Then it's done for all, one way or another.)
Click to expand...

Like this?

Code: 
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.TrackerPanel">
    <property name="width" type="double">720.0</property>
    <property name="height" type="double">480.0</property>
    <property name="magnification" type="double">2.8284271247461907</property>
    <property name="videoclip" type="object">
    <object class="org.opensourcephysics.media.core.VideoClip">
        <property name="video" type="object">
        <object class="org.opensourcephysics.media.quicktime.QTVideo">
            <property name="path" type="string">610_Demolition_Compilation_v8_vista_tower_moves_first.MOV</property>
        </object>
        </property>
        <property name="startframe" type="int">216</property>
        <property name="stepsize" type="int">6</property>
        <property name="stepcount" type="int">21</property>
        <property name="starttime" type="double">0.0</property>
    </object>
    </property>
    <property name="clipcontrol" type="object">
    <object class="org.opensourcephysics.media.core.StepperClipControl">
        <property name="rate" type="double">1.0</property>
        <property name="delta_t" type="double">33.0</property>
    </object>
    </property>
    <property name="coords" type="object">
    <object class="org.opensourcephysics.media.core.ImageCoordSystem">
        <property name="fixedorigin" type="boolean">true</property>
        <property name="fixedangle" type="boolean">true</property>
        <property name="fixedscale" type="boolean">true</property>
        <property name="locked" type="boolean">false</property>
        <property name="framedata" type="array" class="[Lorg.opensourcephysics.media.core.ImageCoordSystem$FrameData;">
            <property name="[0]" type="object">
            <object class="org.opensourcephysics.media.core.ImageCoordSystem$FrameData">
                <property name="xorigin" type="double">345.97712418300654</property>
                <property name="yorigin" type="double">426.30392156862746</property>
                <property name="angle" type="double">1.3016262181085436</property>
                <property name="xscale" type="double">3.3116604938851464</property>
                <property name="yscale" type="double">3.3116604938851464</property>
            </object>
            </property>
        </property>
    </object>
    </property>
    <property name="tracks" type="collection" class="java.util.ArrayList">
        <property name="item" type="object">
        <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.CoordAxes">
            <property name="name" type="string">axes</property>
            <property name="footprint" type="string">Footprint.BoldSimpleAxes</property>
            <property name="visible" type="boolean">true</property>
            <property name="trail" type="boolean">false</property>
            <property name="locked" type="boolean">true</property>
        </object>
        </property>
        <property name="item" type="object">
        <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.TapeMeasure">
            <property name="name" type="string">tape measure</property>
            <property name="footprint" type="string">Footprint.DoubleArrow</property>
            <property name="visible" type="boolean">true</property>
            <property name="trail" type="boolean">false</property>
            <property name="fixedtape" type="boolean">true</property>
            <property name="framedata" type="array" class="[Lorg.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.TapeMeasure$FrameData;">
                <property name="[0]" type="object">
                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.TapeMeasure$FrameData">
                    <property name="x1" type="double">574.6902654867257</property>
                    <property name="y1" type="double">429.7345132743363</property>
                    <property name="x2" type="double">569.7345132743363</property>
                    <property name="y2" type="double">199.64601769911502</property>
                    <property name="xArm" type="double">570.9734513274336</property>
                    <property name="yArm" type="double">257.16814159292034</property>
                </object>
                </property>
            </property>
        </object>
        </property>
        <property name="item" type="object">
        <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass">
            <property name="mass" type="double">1.0</property>
            <property name="name" type="string">mass A</property>
            <property name="description" type="string">Roofline of WTC1</property>
            <property name="color" type="object">
            <object class="java.awt.Color">
                <property name="red" type="int">255</property>
                <property name="green" type="int">0</property>
                <property name="blue" type="int">0</property>
                <property name="alpha" type="int">255</property>
            </object>
            </property>
            <property name="footprint" type="string">Footprint.Spot</property>
            <property name="visible" type="boolean">true</property>
            <property name="trail" type="boolean">true</property>
            <property name="framedata" type="array" class="[Lorg.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData;">
                <property name="[216]" type="object">
                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData">
                    <property name="x" type="double">412.40229286086503</property>
                    <property name="y" type="double">151.82907764460657</property>
                </object>
                </property>
                <property name="[222]" type="object">
                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData">
                    <property name="x" type="double">412.1521625846795</property>
                    <property name="y" type="double">151.82907764460657</property>
                </object>
                </property>
                <property name="[228]" type="object">
                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData">
                    <property name="x" type="double">411.90203230849403</property>
                    <property name="y" type="double">151.82907764460657</property>
                </object>
                </property>
                <property name="[234]" type="object">
                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData">
                    <property name="x" type="double">411.6519020323085</property>
                    <property name="y" type="double">151.82907764460657</property>
                </object>
                </property>
                <property name="[240]" type="object">
                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData">
                    <property name="x" type="double">411.6519020323085</property>
                    <property name="y" type="double">152.5794684731631</property>
                </object>
                </property>
                <property name="[246]" type="object">
                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData">
                    <property name="x" type="double">412.1521625846795</property>
                    <property name="y" type="double">154.08025013027617</property>
                </object>
                </property>
                <property name="[252]" type="object">
                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData">
                    <property name="x" type="double">412.90255341323603</property>
                    <property name="y" type="double">156.0812923397603</property>
                </object>
                </property>
                <property name="[258]" type="object">
                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData">
                    <property name="x" type="double">412.1521625846795</property>
                    <property name="y" type="double">158.58259510161542</property>
                </object>
                </property>
                <property name="[264]" type="object">
                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData">
                    <property name="x" type="double">412.40229286086503</property>
                    <property name="y" type="double">162.08441896821262</property>
                </object>
                </property>
                <property name="[270]" type="object">
                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData">
                    <property name="x" type="double">412.65242313705056</property>
                    <property name="y" type="double">166.33663366336634</property>
                </object>
                </property>
                <property name="[276]" type="object">
                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData">
                    <property name="x" type="double">411.90203230849403</property>
                    <property name="y" type="double">171.5893694632621</property>
                </object>
                </property>
                <property name="[282]" type="object">
                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData">
                    <property name="x" type="double">412.1521625846795</property>
                    <property name="y" type="double">177.59249609171442</property>
                </object>
                </property>
                <property name="[288]" type="object">
                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData">
                    <property name="x" type="double">411.90203230849403</property>
                    <property name="y" type="double">184.8462741010943</property>
                </object>
                </property>
                <property name="[294]" type="object">
                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData">
                    <property name="x" type="double">411.6519020323085</property>
                    <property name="y" type="double">192.85044293903073</property>
                </object>
                </property>
                <property name="[300]" type="object">
                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData">
                    <property name="x" type="double">411.90203230849403</property>
                    <property name="y" type="double">201.6050026055237</property>
                </object>
                </property>
                <property name="[306]" type="object">
                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData">
                    <property name="x" type="double">411.6519020323085</property>
                    <property name="y" type="double">211.36008337675872</property>
                </object>
                </property>
                <property name="[312]" type="object">
                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData">
                    <property name="x" type="double">411.6519020323085</property>
                    <property name="y" type="double">221.86555497655027</property>
                </object>
                </property>
                <property name="[318]" type="object">
                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData">
                    <property name="x" type="double">411.90203230849403</property>
                    <property name="y" type="double">232.87128712871285</property>
                </object>
                </property>
                <property name="[324]" type="object">
                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData">
                    <property name="x" type="double">411.15164147993744</property>
                    <property name="y" type="double">244.8775403856175</property>
                </object>
                </property>
                <property name="[330]" type="object">
                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData">
                    <property name="x" type="double">411.40177175612297</property>
                    <property name="y" type="double">257.13392391870764</property>
                </object>
                </property>
                <property name="[336]" type="object">
                <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PointMass$FrameData">
                    <property name="x" type="double">411.15164147993744</property>
                    <property name="y" type="double">270.64095883272535</property>
                </object>
                </property>
            </property>
        </object>
        </property>
    </property>
    <property name="selectedtrack" type="string">tape measure</property>
    <property name="dividers" type="array" class="[D">
        <property name="array" type="string">{0.7861635220125787,0.4936708860759494,0.9872935196950444,0.0}</property>
    </property>
    <property name="views" type="array" class="[[Lorg.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.TView;">
        <property name="[0]" type="array" class="[Lorg.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.TView;">
            <property name="[1]" type="object">
            <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PlotTView">
                <property name="selected_track" type="string">mass A</property>
                <property name="track_views" type="collection" class="java.util.ArrayList">
                    <property name="item" type="object">
                    <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.PlotTrackView">
                        <property name="track" type="string">mass A</property>
                        <property name="plot0" type="object">
                        <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.TrackPlottingPanel">
                            <property name="x_var" type="string">t</property>
                            <property name="y_var" type="string">vy</property>
                        </object>
                        </property>
                        <property name="linked" type="boolean">false</property>
                    </object>
                    </property>
                </property>
            </object>
            </property>
        </property>
        <property name="[1]" type="array" class="[Lorg.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.TView;">
            <property name="[2]" type="object">
            <object class="org.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.TableTView">
                <property name="selected_track" type="string">mass A</property>
                <property name="track_columns" type="array" class="[[Ljava.lang.String;">
                    <property name="[0]" type="array" class="[Ljava.lang.String;">
                        <property name="[0]" type="string">mass A</property>
                        <property name="[1]" type="string">y</property>
                        <property name="[2]" type="string">vy</property>
                    </property>
                </property>
            </object>
            </property>
        </property>
        <property name="[2]" type="array" class="[Lorg.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.TView;"/>
        <property name="[3]" type="array" class="[Lorg.opensourcephysics.cabrillo.tracker.TView;"/>
    </property>
    <property name="selected_views" type="array" class="[Ljava.lang.String;">
        <property name="[0]" type="string">Plot View</property>
        <property name="[1]" type="string">Table View</property>
        <property name="[2]" type="string">World View</property>
        <property name="[3]" type="string">World View</property>
    </property>
</object>
 
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