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Whats the "Greenest" way to produce electricity?

No, those are assertions that you have not, as of yet supported with anything but your personal statements that such is so.

Hydro NIMBY - http://www.ehso.com/ehshome/energydams.htm

http://www.newint.org/issue273/dam.htm

http://environmentalism.suite101.com/article.cfm/review_of_the_dammed_by_fred_pearce

No, that's a fact. Nuclear produces thermal pollution, as well as that associated with mining, processing and disposal. That's in addition to the numerous employees traveling to the site in their CO2 emitting cars and trucks.

Hydro is hands down the cleanest way to produce electricity. That is evidenced by the fact that almost all sources have been exploited already.
 
Hydro is in deep doo-doo, actually.

Old dams that were built in haste, or with inadequate forethought are slated for expensive demolition.
It would be nice to have lots more Niagra Falls, for sure..but, as you've mentioned, they've all been exploited.

I live below a huge damned reservoir; a very old damn. Its undergoing multi-million $ repairs now. It may never be fixed. The old ones weren't really designed to be fixed.

The recent floods in Nashville, Tn were a direct result of lost storage capacity in the ailing Wolf Creek Dam. This damn destroyed a very lucrative market in river oysters, amongst other things. Its hidden costs keep rising.
Google the Wolf Creek dam. Its failure, should it happen, (and it already has, to some extent) would far exceed its life-time value.
 
Hydro is in deep doo-doo, actually.

Old dams that were built in haste, or with inadequate forethought are slated for expensive demolition.
It would be nice to have lots more Niagra Falls, for sure..but, as you've mentioned, they've all been exploited.

I live below a huge damned reservoir; a very old damn. Its undergoing multi-million $ repairs now. It may never be fixed. The old ones weren't really designed to be fixed.

The recent floods in Nashville, Tn were a direct result of lost storage capacity in the ailing Wolf Creek Dam. This damn destroyed a very lucrative market in river oysters, amongst other things. Its hidden costs keep rising.
Google the Wolf Creek dam. Its failure, should it happen, (and it already has, to some extent) would far exceed its life-time value.

Mmm, when I googled it earlier "failure" came up as a concern.

No doubt that's a problem, still in terms of "failure" Chernobyl seems to make any "failure" seem insignificant. In a"worst case scenario" hydro pales in comparison to nuclear. If the same "due diligence" is put in, hydro is infinitely more safe. If any nuclear should "fail" it will far, far exceed it's life time value. It's lifetime, and many many many others a hundred times over.

It's only more likely to occur because people become lazy due to familiarity. If the same attention were paid to hydro as there is to nuclear there's no way a "disaster" could happen. None. You have my word on that ;)

edit: as an example, how many people die every year due to radiation, and how many die due to peanuts? I'll bet you 100 times as many die due to peanuts as there are due to radiation. Still, radiation is much, much more deadly. When proper precaution is taken, anything can essentially be made safe.
 
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Yes.

My situation is anecdotal.

Yet, hydro is mostly played out.
Now going backwards.
 
Surely there must be a way to improve solar/wind power intake/output/storage... maybe we just haven't figured it out yet ?

The sci-fi geek in me can't let go of those possibilities yet...

:eusa_think:
 
Saw some magnificent lightning while driving on my recent vacation.

How could atmospheric potential differences be taken advantage of to produce electricity?
This is an intriguing idea.

A tall mast, perhaps, might cause a current to run between the top and the bottom? It'd have to be pretty darn tall though, I think.

............

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....................................







SPACE ELEVATOR!!!
 
No, that's a fact. Nuclear produces thermal pollution, as well as that associated with mining, processing and disposal. That's in addition to the numerous employees traveling to the site in their CO2 emitting cars and trucks.

Hydro is hands down the cleanest way to produce electricity. That is evidenced by the fact that almost all sources have been exploited already.

Show me the numbers
 
This is an intriguing idea.

A tall mast, perhaps, might cause a current to run between the top and the bottom? It'd have to be pretty darn tall though, I think.


I think the problem that any atmospheric-electricity scheme faces is handling the immense discharges that occur in very little time in lightning.

Still...
 
I think the problem that any atmospheric-electricity scheme faces is handling the immense discharges that occur in very little time in lightning.

Still...

Probably better to try and capture the charge directly instead of dealing with the cascading discharges that culminate in lightning. Still difficult and problematic, but more to the root of the goal. Perhaps tethered(insulated) blimps with a light weight conductive mesh strung between them, as the mesh drags through the cloud layers it would collect the charges, then you can play with the potential difference between the local bedrock and the blimp-mesh.

Probably much easier and more profittable to use tethered blimps to harvest upper level winds and the jetstream energies.
 
The Wheel of Pain, connected to a generator, would be extremely green. Several pillaged villages worth of child slaves, having a very low standard of living, would have a minimal carbon footprint. In fact, combined with a sufficient serf population to supply themselves, the WoP slaves, and a few taskmasters with gruel, using everyone's collected excrement as fertilizer, the whole process would be carbon-neutral.

What this tells me is that green-ness should probably not be pursued to the exclusion of other social values.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
Nuclear is the most cost effective and reliable source of electricity today. Hydro is the cleanest but is not developable anymore where the population requires its use. Wind and solar are expensive and requires a fossil fuel generator to supply power when the wind don't blow and the sun doesn't shine.

Nuclear is my choice and science will resolve the waste issues in the future....... Bury it where the earth's plates are moving to the molten core....
 
Probably better to try and capture the charge directly instead of dealing with the cascading discharges that culminate in lightning. Still difficult and problematic, but more to the root of the goal. Perhaps tethered(insulated) blimps with a light weight conductive mesh strung between them, as the mesh drags through the cloud layers it would collect the charges, then you can play with the potential difference between the local bedrock and the blimp-mesh.

Probably much easier and more profittable to use tethered blimps to harvest upper level winds and the jetstream energies.


I agree. I was thinking that it would be far better too avoid the buildup of potential differences large enough to result in lightning by bleeding power out of the system continuously and at lower levels of potential difference. Lower voltage differences should reduce the technological demands. Less dramatic but more sustainable.
 
Even the worst of the worst doesn't harm the environment as much as nuke.

The Banqiao dam failure did about the same level of damage as the Hiroshima attack. It was a hydroelectric and water management system comprising 18 GW of installed capacity. 62 dams failed in a chain reaction of failures due to a 1 in a 1000 year flood and improper construction and limited communication during the event. The most spectacular failure unleashed a wave of water, initially 3-7 meters tall and 10 km wide, traveling at ~50 km/h and wiping out an area of ~800 km^2. 6 million buildings were destroyed. ~26 000 direct deaths were attributed to the flood and ~145 000 deaths attributed to famine and disease in affected areas.
 
Lightning (God's hand) produces an enormous amount of inorganic Nitrogen; arguably more than the amount man produces. To find a way to tap it effectively might inadvertently starve plant life.

There's always a catch.
 
Originally Posted by 3bodyproblem
Even the worst of the worst doesn't harm the environment as much as nuke.
still more unsupported opinion

on the other hand some that do understand in depth take a different view

Hydroelectric power's dirty secret revealed

14:29 24 February 2005 by Duncan Graham-Rowe

Contrary to popular belief, hydroelectric power can seriously damage the climate. Proposed changes to the way countries' climate budgets are calculated aim to take greenhouse gas emissions from hydropower reservoirs into account, but some experts worry that they will not go far enough.
.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7046

and people do get killed building hydro facilities - the death toll at the Adam Beck facility was horrid when built. And the facilities are not immune to disaster
http://www.wild.org/blog/human-economic-and-environmental-losses-from-hydroelectric-dam-explosion/
and there are huge risks in China with 3 gorges...
as well as others....hydro is no panacea

23 FEB 2009: REPORT
The Dam Building Boom:
Right Path to Clean Energy?

Led by China, the developing world is engaged in a flurry of dam construction, touting hydropower as renewable energy in an era of global warming. But critics point out that the human and environmental costs of dams remain high.
http://e360.yale.edu/content/feature.msp?id=2119


and even now expansion is costly - very comparable with nuclear costs.

What do we know for sure? We know, for sure, that the costs of the material for an AP-1000 is is less than 1.4 billion dollars. How do we know that? Because this is what the Chinese are saying it is going to cost to built their AP-1000s, take or add $100 million or so. This means that Westinghouse is charging, at most, about $1000/kW installed components. Interesting, yes? We also can assume that Westinghouse is charging the Chinese the same as they are the dozen or more new builds submitted to the US NRC.

Early this year I met with a EDF nuclear physicist, far-left member of their union at his nuclear plant in southern France and ask him about this. He said at Flamesville, they are already developing new concrete techniques (some, believe or not ,dervived from French wine barrel making techniques!) to speed up and help in building the plant. They expect, still, that the plant will be over budget but not nearly as much as the Finnish version. People at EDF, both in management and in the unions are very optimistic.
http://nextbigfuture.com/2009/08/nuclear-costs-at-bravenewclimate-and.html
and
http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/08/23/recent-nuclear-power-cost-estimates-separating-fact-from-myth/

Ontario Power Generation confirms Niagara tunnel cost surge to $1.6 B
Last Updated: Friday, May 22, 2009 | 11:40 AM ET

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2009/05/22/ontario-power.html#ixzz0six2CqXF

That said the hydro development in Quebec which Ontario plans to participate in makes sense against nuclear expansion.

ALL technology carries risk. Nuclear's safety record is sterling and when you build in the cost of transmission lines and towers for Hydro which cannot be located near use centres, the flexibility of nuclear weighs in heavily. Far better Ohio had 20 nuclear plants than the killer coal plants they are infested with now.

Nuclear needs the kind of national commitment that the interstate highway system and before that the original hydro grid were given.

and **** the Nimby's - tired of stupid tree huggers and others of a similar ilk that are ill-informed or have vested interests.

The tree huggers and NIMBYs whine and complain and wring their hands about the horrors of nuclear meanwhile getting 40% of their power cleanly for decades from nuclear plants in Ontari.

and then there is France at 80%
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5369610
with incredibly low per capita carbon output compared to other 1st world nations...hydro is not exactly an option for them.

To answer the OP

The greenest way over time is likely solar steam for industrial level and solar panel for individuals but it's not practical for all areas and the solar steam really in only a few areas and it still needs to get to the areas not suitable....the cost to build the facilities to trasmit power to Europe from North Africa on a large scale is in the trillion range

The greenest way to eliminate coal and meet the world's need...the only way really..... is nuclear in combination with efficiency and conservation.

That said we will need all of hydro, nuclear and renewables to get to carbon neutral civilization and preserve a reasonable atmospheric energy balance.
I doubt tho that it will be within the 2 degree C range :(
 
Nuclear is the most cost effective and reliable source of electricity today. Hydro is the cleanest but is not developable anymore where the population requires its use. Wind and solar are expensive and requires a fossil fuel generator to supply power when the wind don't blow and the sun doesn't shine.

Nuclear is my choice and science will resolve the waste issues in the future....... Bury it where the earth's plates are moving to the molten core....

Why bury such a potentially valuable commodity, when it comes to nuclear, most waste is just low grade potential fuel. As long as we seperate out the long-lived species most of the really "Hot" stuff burns itself out within a few years to decades (and a lot of it has commercial value while its hot), The long-lived stuff can either be diluted to ore levels of emission and stored or fed back into many of the advanced designs and "burned" as an additive. This latter concept is a part of many of the Thorium, ACR, MSR, DB-MHR, etc., systems.

Nuclear(fission) isn't suitable for all of our energy needs, but I see no reason advanced design systems couldn't eventually be geared up to 50-60% (instead of the ~20% it currently meets) of the projected future needs of the latter part of the current century, but in order to do this we are going to have to engage in some serious commitment and investment in the coming decade. We're talking about replacing the current systems and then a doubling of online reactors every decade or so in order to reach this goal. Our energy needs aren't falling or even stable. This may sound like a lot of reactors, but historically, it isn't radically out of line, during the '80s, we built close to 50 reactors (actually most of them were started in the '70s so we should probably look at this as a 2 decade number). Probably looking for something around 500 reactors by the turn of the century, to meet the doubled needs for power and move from 20% to 50+% of our electrical generation requirements.
 
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To answer the OP

The greenest way over time is likely solar steam for industrial level and solar panel for individuals but it's not practical for all areas and the solar steam really in only a few areas and it still needs to get to the areas not suitable....the cost to build the facilities to trasmit power to Europe from North Africa on a large scale is in the trillion range

The greenest way to eliminate coal and meet the world's need...the only way really..... is nuclear in combination with efficiency and conservation.

That said we will need all of hydro, nuclear and renewables to get to carbon neutral civilization and preserve a reasonable atmospheric energy balance.
I doubt tho that it will be within the 2 degree C range :(

Fully agreed, and again, so there's not mistaking, I'm not opposed to hydro, its just that there aren't many places where its possible, and where it is possible it must be carefully designed to minimize impacts that weren't even considered when most of the current hydroelectric systems were designed and built. Additionally with a dramatically changing climate, we can't be confident that existing hydro systems will continue to be viable into the future.

Solar (both PV and thermal) are excellent systems and I'm sure they will continue to grow in capacity and capability, same with wind, geothermal, tidal/wave, and even waste biomass and methane capture. I'm more in favor of diversification and lots of local generation linked nationally over an intelligent grid rather than any single character replacement for Coal and Oil (note, I see a potential future for natural gas, at least well through this century but mainly as a local, spot-need/emergency grid back-up system whose power needs to be heavily taxed to offset emissions costs.
 
Hydro in Nepal is a different kettle of fish, as your hiking in the middle of nowhere, you see these tiny metal shacks next to steep glacial streams, with power lines connected. These streams would create a fair chunk of power, which was then sold to India. The near by village had to struggle on solar, whilst the government made money selling the electricity to others for a profit

Nepal is actually a great example of the problems that hydro power can have. For those not aware of the details, Nepal is one of the poorest countries in the world and suffers from severe energy shortages. Even in the two largest cities the the grid cannot provide continuous power even when scheduled, and all shops and businesses have their own generators.

However, a huge proportion of Nepal's income comes from tourism. There are two main areas - hiking and mountaineering, and rafting and kayaking. There has been a massive push to generate as much electricity as possible by hydro power, which means many of the rivers are now dammed. The Marsyandi, for example, used to be widely regarded as one of the best white water rivers in the world. Assuming the second dam has been finished on schedule, it is no longer possible to paddle it. The drive for more hydro-electricity is not just damaging the ecology, it's destroying one of the main sources of the country's income.

In most cases the lakes and reservoirs created by damming increase biodiversity in the areas they replaced (lakes filled with fish and water birds that otherwise wouldn't habitate the rivers they've replaced).

Firstly, do you have any evidence to support yet another unfounded claim? Secondly, you do not appear to understand what biodiversity actually means. It doesn't matter that there may be a higher number of species living in the area afterwards if the species that were there originally no longer have anywhere to live and go extinct. Biodiversity isn't just a local function, it's a global one. Loss of biodiversity is one of the main arguments against hydro power, and is why proposals such as the Severn barrage keep getting turned down. I'm sure there would be plenty of species that would enjoy living in a lake created by that, but the ones that rely on the wetlands and mudflats that currently exist would die. While I personally don't think that's enough of an argument in that specific case, you cannot simply pretend to the argument does not exist at all.

They also provide recreational areas for local residents.

You mean the local residents who have just had their entire towns drowned? Or just the ones that are lucky enough to be near the edge and only need to worry about the occasional flooding?

That's if they need to. Niagra falls for instance doesn't suffer from any of the afflictions you've mentioned???

The Niagara falls are not a river, it's a waterfall. I don't know if the Niagara river suffers from any major problems caused by the hydro plant there, but if not that would be because it only diverts a small proportion of the water rather than damming the whole thing. On the other hand, if you look at examples such as the Three Gorges Dam or the Aswan dam things are rather different.

I pointed out in my other post how dirty comparable nuclear is.

No you didn't, you merely claimed this as fact without providing a shred of supporting evidence.

I'm not sure what else could be built in the same area to replace a hydro dam that comes anywhere near being as clean.

Yes, it seems clear that you are not sure. However, since you appear to have nothing to base your opinion on other than bare assertions backed up by more bare assertions, what you're not sure of does not appear particularly relevant.

I think this is not necessarily true, though its certainly true for the forseeable future.

Why do you think that? The only way to produce energy from matter/anti-matter annihilation is to start off with matter and anti-matter. Since anti-matter is not the sort of thing you find just floating around the place in large, easily mined deposits, the only way to get any is to produce it ourselves. It's exactly the same situation as hydrogen currently has, where you have to make it out of water because there isn't any hydrogen lying around. The difference is that there is a fair bit of hydrogen in space if only we could get to it easily, whereas there simply aren't large amounts of anti-matter anywhere.
 

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