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Ed All 43 videos "Second Hit"" [Explosion]at WTC 2: Plane or No Plane?

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The above is a ludicrous post. This is a thread with more than 1550 posts dedicated to a discussion of what the ALL43 videos show about the explosion at the South Tower on 9/11. Virtually all posts made by me in this tread stand for the proposition that the videos, taken separately, taken together in groups, or taken as a whole data set do not show the properties that would result from an actual jetliner crashing into that building.


Please, describe what those properties are. What would happen if jet airliners were to actually crash into those buildings?

Your thinly disguised request for more proof is, then, an assertion that merely says you continue to believe the common storyline that a jetliner hit the South Tower on 9/11. I am not here seeking to change your belief, TheRedWorm.

It's not thinly disguised, it's an outright request that you show what should happen. Oh, and I do not believe that jetliners hit the towers, that is what I accept based on multiple, convergent lines of evidence.


I have said many times, posters, including you, may continue to believe the common storyline for as long as they can.

If you'd like to discuss something in the 1550+ posts as to whether you think it supports or contradicts the common storyline, fine, post up, if you please.

I will continue to post more and additional information, page by page, post by post, as I have done. Do you doubt that that is true?

Oh, I don't doubt you will continue posting. What I do doubt is either your sincerity, or your are ability to evaluate evidence in a rational, objective, and dispasionate manner. And again, people don't believe that jets hit the towers, they accept it based on multiple, independent, and convergent lines of evidence.
 
Howdy, Lurkers, come on an post, please

40
http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/jfibonacci/all43title/40-closeup920.png?t=1278161882

Segment # 40 begins at about 9:20 and, though cropped differently, is the one that I think corresponds to the video segment contained in the PBS documentary that Bill Smith has posted up for discussion. This is the one that contains the "flash" seen to occur as shadow thingy is about to begin its unimpeded glide through the South Tower.

If anyone can grab a still of the flash as it occurs, that might be a fruitful exercise and post.
 
Fitz,



You will receive an answer to the following rhetorical questions when you re-post the rhetoric as claims that you are making:

How quickly does jet fuel ignite?

As to which, Fitz states...

How fast was the jet fuel going when it ignited as part of the impact with the WTC?

As to which, Fitz asserts...

How would what you expect differ from what was observed?

As to which, Fitz claims...


As soon as you so post, in the form of a statement, an assertion and/or a claim, I will likely respond.

Until you so post, I will not respond.

What part of:

They are not rhetorical questions.

doesn't compute? They are questions asked because you have made assertions without (so far) offering any kind of support.

A question is not in and of itself rhetoric. If you aren't able to answer the question, please be kind enough to admit as much and withdraw the assertion that relies on said understanding.

There is no shame in not knowing

Fitz
 
Would you say that if I can show beyond a reasonable doubt that the flash originated from inside the building and prior to impact that that would make my hypothesis worth true consideration ?

Jam I am happy to pick up on this later after you have finished your analysis of the 43 clips of fl175.
 
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it is difficult to isolate that flash in order to snag a still image of it for posting and discussion here.
No, it's not...
201595574.gif


There is simply no excuse for not getting hold of the original videos and using free video tools such as VirtualDub to analyse the video data frame by frame.

Copy of the footage...
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=EL94TMZA

One can also question whether the flash occurs before shadow thingy's nose is seen to touch that wall.
No, one cannot. It's clearly after nose-facade contact.

You've spammed 40 pages of gibberish and not even bothered to look at any of the detail.

Go and do something less boring instead.

Am not going to post anything further in this thread. Tired of it jumping to top of forum, but it's an utter waste of breath to comment.

I've provided him with a collection of over 30 HD video's of the impact and they didn't even touch the sides.


(click to enlarge)

Laters.
 
I've provided him with a collection of over 30 HD video's of the impact and they didn't even touch the sides.

.
Maybe you should compress them many times and post them on UTube. Then maybe Jam would have something to use.

:rolleyes:


Isn't it frustrating when people just don't listen.
 
That's already much-compressed and slo-mo'd for good measure. Truthers really should put their bucks together and license an actual dub from original sources.

Somehow I don't see that happening though. Not enough compression artifacts to hide behind.
 
The issue of what the videos show is being advanced at long last. Femr2 apparently looks at the gif in the above post as being a fair representation of reality. In order to hold that view, one has to suspend disbelief. Here is a still extracted from Femr2's gif:

[qimg]http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/jfibonacci/all43posting/shadowthingynoexplosion.jpg?t=1278156929[/qimg]

That gif, in its entirety, and in segments, including that seen above cannot by any stretch of reality be said to depict the properties of an actual jetliner crash.

The image confirms a jetliner has glided almost all the way through a steel, concrete and rebar structure without degrading, without bending, without exploding and without shearing off any debris in any realistic quantity. in fact, let's be a little more exacting here. The wings that we must necessarily infer have passed through the exterior wall have done so, according to the still excerpt from Femr2's gif, without leaving any sign of doing so. Look at it posters and lurers. It's right there in front of you.

I can anticipate that some will engage in a process of rationalization and of denial claiming the video lacks sufficient resolution and such like. Well, the fact is, that tail section of that shadow thingy should not be intact and should not be able to glide through and should not have been in the least bit visible at that instance. Yet, it continued to glide right through, once again, without degrading and without even slowing.

Posters, observation confirms that the shadow thingy is not a Boeing 767 and is not Flight 175. It is an illusion.

In fact, what is seen in Femr2's gif is the exact functional equivalent of a Roadrunner cartoon:

[qimg]http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/jfibonacci/album2/road_runner2.jpg?t=1278157297[/qimg]

The Roadrunner and the Shadow thingy are two examples of the same thing:

Special effects; or, as Evan Fairbanks said in the case of Shadow thingy, "a bad special effect."

special effects, huh? tell that to the families of the victims, i dare you.

so again, another worthless post by Jammo, not a shred of evidence, just his opinion, which as anyone reading this thread can tell you, is wrong. he will never admit it, but deep down lurkers, he knows he has been exposed for a fraud and a liar in his attempts to prove some theory involving a DEW and some holograms and special effects, his problem? He wants to be taken at his word, if you ask a direct question, you get a response of I don't play 20 questions, or I don't play gotcha games, because he knows that as long as he doesn't answer them, he can keep the fantasy alive.
 
The only question that really needs to be asked is what exact evidence would it take for Jammonius to admit that planes hit the buildings? I mean seriously. How much MORE evidence can there be?

Alas, this is another of those "gotcha games" he likes to dodge around.
 
The only question that really needs to be asked is what exact evidence would it take for Jammonius to admit that planes hit the buildings? I mean seriously. How much MORE evidence can there be?

Alas, this is another of those "gotcha games" he likes to dodge around.

Even more, I wonder if he was in one of the towers on 9/11 and saw the plane coming what would he have yelled? "Holy crap! A plane!" or "Holy crap! A shadow thingy!"
 
Hi Jammonius. I'm one of those Lurkers you keep trying in vain to appeal to, but I suspect I'm not the kind of Lurker you were hoping for.

As I have said, many times, the video of the second explosion shows the shadow thingy penetrating a steel beam structure, complete with concrete and rebar floors, from nose to mid section, through the wings and so on, without exploding, degrading, slowing or creating any debris at all.


That "shadow thingy" also displays highlights and in some videos some discernible surface detail. Why do you persist in using that breathtakingly idiotic term of yours? You'll notice that the buildings, too have areas that are in shadow, with a fairly low level of detail. Are the buildings in these videos holograms, too? Or is it that all of the videos are computer generated?

The image confirms a jetliner has glided almost all the way through a steel, concrete and rebar structure without degrading, without bending, without exploding and without shearing off any debris in any realistic quantity. in fact, let's be a little more exacting here. The wings that we must necessarily infer have passed through the exterior wall have done so, according to the still excerpt from Femr2's gif, without leaving any sign of doing so. Look at it posters and lurers. It's right there in front of you.


So you find it suspicious that the hole the aircraft created does not appear to be sufficiently "aircraft shaped" and that is evidence of an inside job. Got it. Moving on...

In fact, what is seen in Femr2's gif is the exact functional equivalent of a Roadrunner cartoon:

[qimg]http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/jfibonacci/album2/road_runner2.jpg?t=1278157297[/qimg]

The Roadrunner and the Shadow thingy are two examples of the same thing:


So you find it suspicious that the hole the aircraft created appears to be exactly in the shape of an aircraft (cartoonishly so, in fact), and that is evidence of an inside job. Well that seems perfectly reasona- wait, WHAT?

There might be one other possibility Jam. What if the building itself had been tampered with, say weakened somehow in the area of impact.

After all it's undeniable that there is a flash from inside the building a split second before impact. It can be clearly seen even in Femr2's gif. This flash would indicate that the plane was hitting the building with pinpoint precision at a predetermined location. The same was true of flight 11 where there was also a flash before impact.


I had such high hopes that you had had some sort of epiphany a couple of months back and that you had spent the ensuing time rethinking your views. I see those hopes were in vain. You may be taking a different road than Jammonious is taking, but you are both heading for the same erroneous destination. It's sad because aside from having views that are dumber than a bag of hammers you seem like a decent, nice enough person. I and several others here were genuinely worried about you when you suddenly dropped off the map.

Hey bardamu, still others believe that the flashes were 'matches' to ensure that a satisfactory and telegenic fireball would ensue . All part of the 'shock and awe' of the viewers. Imagine if the jet fuel had failed to catch and make the giant fireball with all those cameras hanging in the sky ? Such a 'damp squib' would have been a true disaster for the perps.


It is your honest belief that the perpetrators decided to risk exposing their plot by weakening the supports of the towers and wiring it with explosives because they were worried that if the jets flew into the towers and didn't explode(?), it wouldn't be sufficiently shocking and awe inspiring? Is that your contention???

Your queries are rhetorical and are not questions at all. Rather, they are assertions or claims, about which you very likely have very definite opinions about, or claims that you would like to make. It is not incumbent upon another to answer the rhetoric posed by someone else.


Let me add my voice to the chorus here and agree that you don't know what "rhetorical" means. Whenever someone asks you a question you don't like or can't answer, you claim it is "rhetorical", or part of a game of "20 questions" or a "Gotcha" game. I don't know what your deal is, whether you are mentally ill or a Troll (though one could argue that a sufficiently dedicated Troll might very well suffer from some sort of personality disorder), but get this through your head; YOU are the one coming here to a skeptics forum and making the extraordinary claim. OF COURSE people are going to ask you questions. What did you expect? You come here posting a bunch of videos and saying "don't they look weird?" and expecting everyone to fall in line and abandon all the hard evidence that supports the so-called "official story"?

The silent army of lurkers you seem to believe supports you out there in cyberspace either doesn't exist, doesn't actually agree with you or at best they are so lazy, so ineffectual, so unsupportive of their fellow Truthers that they can't even be bothered to post a few words of agreement or support. Any of those possibilities should give you pause...but I am absolutely certain that they won't.

Remind me to never ask either of you to help me move. Your analysis and problem solving skills are atrocious.

Me: OK, how are we going to get this couch down that flight of stairs?
Bill Smith: Maybe we could prewire it with explosives?
Me: (sigh) Any other views?
Jammonius: Um....holograms?
Me: What?
Jammonius: Shadow...couch-y?
Me: Come again?
Jammonius: Stop playing 20 questions and gotcha games!
Me: Riiiiight. Look. I think that if we turn it 90 degrees clockwise and angle it upwards, it should fit through the door and...
Jammonius: Lurkers, help me out here. He's the crazy one, right? Not me!
Me: Who are you talking to?
Jammonius: Again with your 20 questions! Look at these 43 heavily compressed, lo res videos of other attempts to move a couch out a narrow doorway...
Me: You know what? Never mind. I decided not to move. Who wants a beer?
Jammonius: Was that a rhetorical question?
 
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...
Me: You know what? Never mind. I decided not to move. Who wants a beer?
Jammonius: Was that a rhetorical question?

Never!

Jammo, I think you'd even protest if I gotcha a beer, right?
Ah never mind, that was rhetorical indeed...
 
Would you say that if I can show beyond a reasonable doubt that the flash originated from inside the building and prior to impact that that would make my hypothesis worth true consideration ?

Some of the no-planer theories are so absurd it's just mind numbing....
The 'flash' was the moment the nose of the plane hit the tower. Ever hear of something called 'sparks'?
 
special effects, huh? tell that to the families of the victims, i dare you.

so again, another worthless post by Jammo, not a shred of evidence, just his opinion, which as anyone reading this thread can tell you, is wrong. he will never admit it, but deep down lurkers, he knows he has been exposed for a fraud and a liar in his attempts to prove some theory involving a DEW and some holograms and special effects, his problem? He wants to be taken at his word, if you ask a direct question, you get a response of I don't play 20 questions, or I don't play gotcha games, because he knows that as long as he doesn't answer them, he can keep the fantasy alive.




No-planers don't think there were any plane crash victims- Most of them doubt the planes (or the passengers) even existed-so they think the family members are just putting on an act.
I try not to get too worked up over the no-planers, beacuse I do think many of them are mentally ill....
It's as pointless as getting angry with the streetcorener lunatic who screams Biblical passages and obscenities as he clutches his cardboard sign..
 
Emphasis mine
As I have said, many times, the video of the second explosion shows the shadow thingy penetrating a steel beam structure, complete with concrete and rebar floors, from nose to mid section, through the wings and so on, without exploding, degrading, slowing or creating any debris at all.

Who the hell said that?
 
Jammonius chooses to ignore the countless eye witness accounts of the palnes hitting the towers as well as the footage taken of the crashes...

Odd how no planers think the footage is fake, yet latch onto a moment in the footage to support one of tehir crackpot theories (such as claiming tha sparks causes the second one the of the planes hit the tower as an internal explosion)


Here is question Jammy- what would it take to convince you without a shadow of a doubt that planes did indeed hit the towers? How much more evidence would one need?
 
Jammonius chooses to ignore the countless eye witness accounts of the palnes hitting the towers as well as the footage taken of the crashes...

Odd how no planers think the footage is fake, yet latch onto a moment in the footage to support one of tehir crackpot theories (such as claiming tha sparks causes the second one the of the planes hit the tower as an internal explosion)


Here is question Jammy- what would it take to convince you without a shadow of a doubt that planes did indeed hit the towers? How much more evidence would one need?

Jammy doesn't take any notice of evidence,it would create too great a disturbance in his fantasy.
 
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