Merged Depleted uranium

[stilicho]

I feel like the devil's advocate here, but it's important to take DU seriously if studies such as those I posted encouraged more study and implied that "good science indicates that depleted uranium weapons should not be manufactured or exploded."

I want to keep discussions about the medical consequences separate from political threads. So here's your chance. What's your quarrel with the WHO and the medical study? The former argues for more examination while the latter argues for a moratorium excepting civil applications.

Is the science "all in"?

 

[casebro]

Re: the tank junkyard- what is the background radiation from steel? Compared to sitting in ones car?

 

[Rob Lister]

I feel like the devil's advocate here, but it's important to take DU seriously if studies such as those I posted encouraged more study and implied that "good science indicates that depleted uranium weapons should not be manufactured or exploded."

I want to keep discussions about the medical consequences separate from political threads. So here's your chance. What's your quarrel with the WHO and the medical study? The former argues for more examination while the latter argues for a moratorium excepting civil applications.

Is the science "all in"?

It is almost as if you did not read the previous six pages. It really was a good thread. You should read it.

 

[stilicho]

It is almost as if you did not read the previous six pages. It really was a good thread. You should read it.

I read some of it but it seemed to be mostly tiresome bickering.

My question regarding the studies I posted was whether that was the fullest extent of the science of depleted uranium. And I am genuinely curious about the reasons for the one study recommending only a moratorium of DU weapons but not of civil applications.

I am understandably a little less than interested about whose Geiger counter works better.

----

Edit: The first link is a newer study from AUG 2005. That was a few months after the last post in the previous six pages. Therefore it was never considered in the discussion.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I read some of it but it seemed to be mostly tiresome bickering.

My question regarding the studies I posted was whether that was the fullest extent of the science of depleted uranium. And I am genuinely curious about the reasons for the one study recommending only a moratorium of DU weapons but not of civil applications.

I am understandably a little less than interested about whose Geiger counter works better.

The thing is that there is just not much contraversy in this issue. DU is not a significant radiological hazard. It is a highly toxic heavy metal. So the way it is used in munitions means that it will be available to uptake in that area for a while. So it is as a toxic threat not a radiological one that it causes the most problems.

And this is the reason why it has been discontined in use.

 

[stilicho]

And this is the reason why it has been discontined in use.

So depleted uranium isn't being used in military or civil applications? When did that start?

 

[ponderingturtle]

So depleted uranium isn't being used in military or civil applications? When did that start?

That is not what I said.

It is that they have been replaced by and large in penetrators with tungstun alloys.

THis whole thing is wrapped in so so much ignorance. All the outcry against DU seems to be based on the false idea that it is a radiological hazard.

 

[stilicho]

That is not what I said.

It is that they have been replaced by and large in penetrators with tungstun alloys.

THis whole thing is wrapped in so so much ignorance. All the outcry against DU seems to be based on the false idea that it is a radiological hazard.

I am really just asking questions here, PT. I would have thought there would be more of an outcry if there was anything to it. Unless people are grinding depleted uranium into powder and putting it into chewing gum, I never have understood the claims.

What about the claims that it gets into the water supply too quickly? Is depleted uranium more soluble than mercury, zinc or carbon tetrachloride?

 

[Rob Lister]

What about the claims that it gets into the water supply too quickly? Is depleted uranium more soluble than mercury, zinc or carbon tetrachloride?

It oxidizes easily, and having done so, it's about as soluble as a coffee cup.

 

[uruk]

You forgot:

a very, very effective tank killer.

I was just listing the civilian useses of DU. The military use is a givin.

a somewhat effective doorstop/paperweight (depending on form)

Personaly, I use DU as a refreshing suppository when I need that extra pick me up.

 

[stilicho]

It oxidizes easily, and having done so, it's about as soluble as a coffee cup.

And just one last thing. Is there a more recent study that you know of apart from the WHO link and the other one from AUG 2005? I am asking because DU comes up frequently in off-forum discussions I have with individuals. It's best to arrive well-armed at those kinds of "events".

 

[Eligbak]

s there a more recent study that you know of apart from the WHO link and the other one from AUG 2005?

Uranium Medical Research Centre, Toronto/Canada
http://www.umrc.net/

The Uranium Medical Research Centre (UMRC) is an independent non-profit organization founded in 1997 to provide objective and expert scientific and medical research into the effects of uranium, transuranium elements, and radionuclides produced by the process of uranium decay and fission. UMRC is also a registered charity in the United States and Canada.

You could say that these guys have an agenda, but so does the other side. If DU doesn't cause the medical conditions ascribed to it by "believers", what did? Or: How did Saddam manage to sneak his bioweapons into Kosovo?
This issue belong into the "Do cigarettes cause cancer?" category.

 

[Eligbak]

I'm just scratching my head and wonder why we talk about "Gulf War syndrome" in US soldiers all the time. The population of Iraq appears to have been much more seriously affected. I guess we've all seen videos of deformed children on the internet over the years, and they've even made it on some newspaper titles. If depleted uranium ammo doesn't cause cancer and birth defects, it must be due to all the Iraqui WMD's we haven't been able to find.

The fact that "our" side isn't taking this stuff seriously and doing more comprehensive research is very good reason to be skeptical. Have we grown so inured to the suffering of Iraquis that these pictures don't bother us? At least enough to establish an alternative causal chain? Iraq is littered with burned out tanks and radioactive rubble, at least if the geiger counters of activists are to be believed. But all our governments are doing is ignore the problem. Whichever way you explain it, it's a scandal.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

You necro three dead threads on the same subject?

Then, thou hast lost an eighth!

 

[Eligbak]

Siegwart-Horst Gunther, a German epidemiologist and president of Yellow Cross
International, set up to protect children's health, said his studies in Iraq
since 1991 had led him to believe that contact with DU weapon debris was linked
to "sharp increases in infectious diseases and immune deficiencies, Aids-like
syndromes, kidney disorders and congenital deformities". (Richard Norton-Taylor,
'Uranium shells warning for Kosovo alternative maybe: MoD accused of hiding
truth', the Guardian, July 31, 1999)

Dr. Siegwart Horst Günther did participate in the 2006 film "Deadly Dust" (Todesstaub) by the German documentary maker Frieder Wagner. While Wagner goes around making some wild claims, the film has generally received praise. It's on Youtube and Google video as "The Doctor, the Depleted Uranium and the Dying Children".
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5146778547681767408
The film focuses mainly on British and German soldiers, and Günter's research in Iraq and Ex-Yugoslavia. Other participants are Tedd Weyman of the Uranium Medical Research Center (UMRC) in Toronto, Canada; Asaf Durakovic, Ex-Pentagon researcher, and some German doctors and Scientists.

 

[Eligbak]

http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q746.html

That military personnel and others who may have had contact with depleted uranium from munitions are suffering from various illnesses is not in dispute. That their illnesses are attributable to their exposure to uranium is very, very unlikely.

... health physicists and other scientists and physicians already know that depleted uranium is not the cause of these illnesses and thus any investigations into the cause of these illnesses should focus on other possible causes.

Iraq is a particularly fertile ground for this. So far, I'm not aware of any studies that have argued alternative theories, except vaporous "other causes".

 

[ponderingturtle]

Iraq is a particularly fertile ground for this. So far, I'm not aware of any studies that have argued alternative theories, except vaporous "other causes".

The thing is you first need to establish that something exists before you start looking for causes. People get sick and have odd problems, and if they have something they want to blame they blame it. Be it cell phones, WiFi, Iraq, their chemical load or what ever.

So before you start looking for a cause you need to prove an effect.

 

[Eligbak]

I could post some pictures, but I guess we've all seen the disfigured Iraqui children. If you haven't, do a little googling for "Iraq birth defects".
Most effects on soldiers appear quite minor (on the whole) when compared to these really heavy deformities. But soldiers seem to have been affected as well, like British veteran Jenny Moore, who lost two children during pregnancy because of birth defects:
http://www.leighreporter.co.uk/leigh-news/Horrors-of-Gulf-War-come.330269.jp

The Doctor, the Depleted Uranium, and the Dying Children
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5146778547681767408

In addition to the "Gulf War syndrome", we also have a "Balkan syndrome". It will be interesting to explain what other factors could account for this, except the use of some type on munition in the NATO bombardments of Ex-Yugoslavia during the 90's.

Bosnians say NATO Bombs Brought “Angel of Death”
http://www.iwpr.net/report-news/bosnians-say-nato-bombs-brought-“angel-death”

At least one Gulf war veteran has won a pension on grounds of contamination during service.

More than 2,000 Gulf veterans have been awarded "no fault" war pensions, granted to those whose health has been affected by war service. This week the first war pension for the effects of depleted uranium was awarded to a former soldier, Kenny Duncan, who claimed he was poisoned from inhaling DU dust from burnt-out tanks.

But winning a war pension is no pointer to success in a high court compensation claim. The burden of proof is reversed in pension cases, putting the onus on the MoD to prove the illness is not linked to Gulf service, and there is no need to prove negligence.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2004/feb/05/health.politicsandiraq

 

[BenBurch]

there is NO nuclear ability in them, no radiation (hence the DEPLETED part of the name).

BULL.

Not true.

A totally not true statement.

Absolutely, stupidly not factual.

All "depleted" means is that the amount of U-235 in the metal is now so low its not worth recovering.

Here is the decay chain for U-238. as you can see, it decays via an alpha decay into a Thorium isotope and that in turn decays via a beta decay into a Protactinium isotope, then to U-234.

And "depleted" Uranium also has in it just about all the other U-isotopes and their related decay products.

http://www.physics.umd.edu/lecdem/honr228q/notes/U238scheme.gif

 

[BenBurch]

Adding; This is not to say I think it causes GWS - I think its a toxin and a carcinogen and absolutely nothing you want to be exposed to in any quantity.