• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Apparently Dave Thomas and others debating Gage, Harrit etc on Coast to Coast?

Edx

Philosopher
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
5,642
Not heard anything about this here, any details?




http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com...id=99999&func=view&catid=231&id=270611#270611


Hi all,
Richard Gage of AE911Truth.org and a team of scientists are scheduled to debate a team of JREF debunkers on the Coast to Coast program. Gage has put me on the mailing list after reading my suggestions to him in how to debate the JREF crowd, as a consultant to his team.

Gage and his team of scientists, which include Kevin Ryan and Neils Harritt, will debate a team from the JREF. All we know is that Dave Thomas will be on the other side. We don't know who else they will have on their team.

The debate is scheduled on Coast to Coast for July 31 at this point. So mark that on your calendar. I think you can listen in either on your AM radio station or the coast to coast website. www.coasttocoastam.com/

I talked to Gage for an hour on the phone and gave him some insights and key strategies for exposing the JREFers and their kind, which are outlined on my SCEPCOP site: www.debunkingskeptics.com

I've also announced this debate in my SCEPCOP forum, which I will post further updates to:

www.debunkingskeptics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1220

Anyhow, if any of you have any tips or suggestions for Mr. Gage and his team, feel free to post them here, and I will forward them to him.

Should he cover a few strong undebunkable arguments, or try to cover all ten of the features of controlled demolition of the WTC? Which arguments should be emphasized most?

The debate will be primarily about the WTC and Building 7 collapse, not about the other issues surrounding 9/11.

Thanks,
Winston
 
There is a thread where Dave Thomas mentions it in post #23.
 
Last edited:
Coast to Coast? Only Aliens and John Lear listen to Coast to Coast; oops, I must be an alien those few times I have found John Lear spew BS about BS while I drive trying to dodge the Owls swooping into the highway trying to break my window late at night listening to woo.
 
You can not debate Gage. He refuses to answer questions and admitted to me that he does not have the technical knowledge needed to understand the NIST reports.

He promised me last September that his team of engineers will look at Ryan Mackey's paper (i hand delivered it)that proves the MANY mistakes of Gage's mentor, Dr. Griffin. He was also given by me a copy of Greg Urichs open letter to him. Once again Gage promised me a response, once again he failed to respond. Writing to him was a joke as he refused to respond to my inquiries. When he is unable to answer questions, his parroted response is the typical: "That's why we need a true independent investigation." The guy is a douche that is making money off other douches.
 
hahaha!!!

OtherTruther said:
Truther1 said:
Gage has put me on the mailing list after reading my suggestions to him in how to debate the JREF crowd, as a consultant to his team.

...

But I am in contact with Richard Gage of AE911Truth.org, so if you have any messages for him, I could pass them along. I also correspond with David Ray Griffin too.

yeah congrats man it's a cool thing to put on your resume
 
Dave,

The only person who will be capable of "baffling 'em with BS" is Harritt.

I'd suggest hammering home 3 points re: Farrer, Harrit, et al.

1. Why did they invent their own, NON-conclusive test methods (that just reveals elements), when there are cheap (about $70/sample), conclusive tests (X-ray diffraction, that reveals the pre- & post-reaction compounds) for thermite that are done routinely by qualified forensic labs all around the country (for arson cases)?

2. Not one of the Farrer, Harrit, Jones et al authors had ever performed a single forensic analysis for thermite prior to this paper. They are all amateurs in this specific field.

Don't let Harrit claim that his other, unrelated photo-chemistry background makes him an expert in this field.

The very fact that he - as the researcher with the most closely related experience - sanctioned the use of inconclusive (i.e., "incompetent") test method, when there are cheap, conclusive tests readily available, proves that he's not an expert!

3. Lots of scientific reports are simply sloppy &/or wrong. They fade into oblivion when others attempt to replicate them, but fail. Or, far more commonly, when real experts look at the report, immediately realize that it's incompetent, and simply ignore it. Which is exactly what has happened to Ferrar, Harrit et al.

So the true test of validity of any scientific testing is not the original work, but rather independent, competent replication & confirmation of the original work.

It's now been (3? 4?) years since Jones, Harrit et al began their "thermite chips" work. Where is the independent confirmation?

Given 1) incompetent methodology & 2) amateur status of authors, & 3) lack of independent, competent confirmation, Farrer, Harrit et al. is a non-entity.

Don't let him hijack the discussion into techno-babble. Move on to the next topic. Tell him to get back to you once somebody competent has published something that matters.


Tom

PS. The absolute, 100% proof that there was no thermite used is the complete absence of any "thermite cut" columns in the debris. All the columns were in their as-manufactured 3 story lengths. (With a small number of 1 & 2 story lengths immediately below & above the mechanical floors).

This proof has not been destroyed, shipped off to China, melted down, etc. It exists today in the tens of thousands of publicly available photographs of the rubble pile.

If, as Steven Jones has stated explicitly (see pg 23 of that doc or this video), a significant percent of the columns on every floor were cut, then somewhere between 1/4 & 3/4th of all the column remnants in the debris pile would have to have "cut" or "blown apart" into 1 story lengths.

None of these short stubs are visible.

All of these cut columns would have clearly visible damage to their ends characteristic of the cutting method used. If Jones et al had managed to cut a sample vertical column using thermite, you'd be able identify the cut from 20' away visually. Or from 1/2 mile away (with a telephoto lens).

I've poured over hundreds of hi-res photos from ground zero. I've not found a single one of the 10s of thousands of columns which has any of these clearly visible features.

Where are the tens of thousands of cut columns in the rubble pile?
Where are the tens of thousands of ragged melted or exploded ends?

Note that the above (IMO, conclusive) argument against thermite applies as well to any type of explosive.
 
Last edited:
Hi Dave.

I don't know if you want to get too bogged down in the minituae regarding the Harrit/Jones thermite work - and really, I fully admit that doing so might open you up to a stunning display of BS from the other side - but just in case it happens, you may want want to peek at these two posts from a poster here named Sunstealer:
... and you may also want to take a look at whatever Jones had written in response to it. I thought I read somewhere that he noted those analyses and said something in regards to it, but if he's done so, I don't know the details.

------

Also, as another avenue of information: You may want to take a quick skim of NCSTAR 1-7: Occupant Behavior, Egress, and Emergency Communication. I say this because much is made of supposed "squibs" blowing columns, as well as Jones's own declaration of thermite being used on the same. Well, if you look at the stairwell diagrams in that report, you'll notice that on some floors the stairwells come quite close to the core columns. If those were honestly demolished via explosives or incendiaries, why did some people trapped in but surviving the collapse not be either blown to bits or burnt to a crisp? Truthers have never answered that. And yes, some folks were indeed trapped in stairwells when the towers collapsed.

------

ETA: I thought there were some posts around this subforum where we actually identified a set or two of trapped survivors and which stairwell they were on, and then went on to associate that with proximity to a core column. I swear I remembered looking over that, but I can't find the post(s). If anyone recalls, please post here. I'm not looking forward to duplicating that work.
 
Last edited:
Gage claims to have helped design a large fireproofed steel-framed high-rise in Las Vegas. I would love to ask him why the steel-framed building he designed needed fireproofing if its true, as he claims, that fire alone cannot cause the collapse of a steel-framed building.
 
Oh man, I cannot wait. Hopefully I'll have computer access on that day. Who else is gonna oppose D-Gage and the Truth Squad?
 
Gage claims to have helped design a large fireproofed steel-framed high-rise in Las Vegas. I would love to ask him why the steel-framed building he designed needed fireproofing if its true, as he claims, that fire alone cannot cause the collapse of a steel-framed building.

Personally one of the things I would also bring up are his case studies, specifically questioning why he compares buildings of different makes, and circumstances, (asserting that a concrete framed building should exhibit the behavior of steel framed construction and so forth).

Just my personal opinion, since these are the basis of a wide swath of his claims. It's an issue I'm sure if brought up he will have a difficult time answering to since no other individual I've spoken to supporting his theories has attempted justifying these comparisons.
 
Last edited:
Or possible just ask him if he can explain how scaling and different materials can affect proportional strength, and based on that, how he justifies the use of a cardboard box as a simulation of a 100 story building?
 
I just query how much you should be discussing this in public. Remember that your opponents will be reading this. They will have an advantage if you know what you are going to say or your tactics. I suggest those that will be participating in this debate do not give public feedback on what you think. So do not say that an idea is comedy gold if someone suggests you say something.
 
I just query how much you should be discussing this in public. Remember that your opponents will be reading this. They will have an advantage if you know what you are going to say or your tactics. I suggest those that will be participating in this debate do not give public feedback on what you think. So do not say that an idea is comedy gold if someone suggests you say something.

I actually don't think this is much of an issue.....

JREF is a public forum and yet truthers are not able to come here and effectively argue the various aspects of 9/11...both technical and non technical.

No one from the truther side has shown why NIST is in error....no one has debunked the various critiques by many of the users here (Mackey, TFK, NewtonsBit, SunStealer, etc)...there are many more names that I am not listing that have debunked everything from fake audio and photos used by the truth movement to the "stand down" idea.

Not to mention the many points, debates, and arguments raised by Roberts over the last few years.

There are over 100 peer reviewed journal articles that support the idea that the towers came down due to structural failure due to fire, while the truthers have only one article and it is in an "open journal" or a "pay to publish" journal.

And the editor resigned over the admittance of that article.

The best the truthers can hope for is to bring up some obscure point that their "opponent" isn’t familiar enough with to answer off the cuff and hope that this imply "proof" of an irrefutable claim.

So I would argue that it is the truthers who dare not show their hand, since each claim can be summarily dismissed with some research.

As for the "debunker" side.....when logic, science, math, engineering, and common sense are all on your side....you have a hand full of aces.
 
rj,

I agree with Newton.

There is absolutely nothing to be concerned about with regard to "showing our hand". That's the great thing about science & engineering: it flourishes under full, open disclosure.

Oh, yeah, Dave. One thought that occurred to me a while back...

A repeated mantra of the truthers is "why didn't other towers that caught fire collapse?"

It's been explained to them in detail every which way to Sunday (the physical damage of the impact, the loss of insulation, the instantaneous massive fire, the lack of a working sprinkler system, etc.)

But a good summary statement is the following:

"In the absence of the physical damage of the plane's impact, a significant percent of the columns would have to come up to about 700°C in order for collapse to occur. This is a tall order in a building with intact insulation & a working sprinkler system.

in the presence of the physical damage, a much smaller number of columns would have to only come up to only about 250 - 300°C in order for collapse to occur. This is easy to do with the loss of insulation, lack of sprinkler system, & massive fires."

(This is, of course, due to the loss of many columns, resulting in significantly higher, abnormal stresses on the remaining columns. And, per Bazant, Le, Greening, Benson (JEM ASCE, vol 134, 2008), at the higher stress levels, fatal amounts of creep happen at very low temps.)

Tom
 
rj,

I agree with Newton.

There is absolutely nothing to be concerned about with regard to "showing our hand". That's the great thing about science & engineering: it flourishes under full, open disclosure.
<snip>

Tom

The problem with the above is that this is not "science & engineering" it is a debate. You should win as you have the facts on your side. If this was a soccer match you should win with a score of 20-0. A win with a score of 5-2 would not be very good. I am just worried that they may work out how to counter something you say you will do on this forum. I mean you do not know what they will say, so why should you let them know what you will say.
 
Just do what they do.

Point out their inadequecies, in both experience with the engineering involved and lack of evidence.

And then attack them.

Answer nothing.

Ridicule them.

It's ludicrous that you're gonna even distinguish these lunatics by debating them. Let them wither on the vine. Just like should be done with lunatics like Jammy.
 
A repeated mantra of the truthers is "why didn't other towers that caught fire collapse?"

Bring along photos of the Madrid Windsor hotel - it consisted of a steel-framed part and a concrete-framed part. The steel part completely collapsed.

A bit of advice is to not let them get away with the Gish Gallop. If you're on one point, don't let them move to another unless they acknowledge that the previous one has been dealt with. If not, go back to it. Force them to pick their best arguments and stay with those - otherwise these guys can spew out so much BS in two minutes that it would take you the rest of the show to address them.
 
Bring along photos of the Madrid Windsor hotel - it consisted of a steel-framed part and a concrete-framed part. The steel part completely collapsed.

A bit of advice is to not let them get away with the Gish Gallop. If you're on one point, don't let them move to another unless they acknowledge that the previous one has been dealt with. If not, go back to it. Force them to pick their best arguments and stay with those - otherwise these guys can spew out so much BS in two minutes that it would take you the rest of the show to address them.

God knows Gage loves that tactic.

And please guys, if he starts talking about explosives again, PLEASE make him realise explosives and sound don't work the way he thinks they do?

 
Last edited:
From Winston Wu aka Scepcop:
Apparently, the paranormal blogger Michael Prescott wrote a critical post about my involvement with the 9/11 Truth debate, and declares that he is rooting for the JREF side on this one:

http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/mich ... -jref.html

See the ton of comments in his blog post. My response to Michael that I posted in his blog:
To Michael Prescott:

How much time have you spent researching 9/11? No one can claim that the full truth is known 100 percent. There are hundreds of unanswered questions and discrepancies and scientific impossibilities with the official story. Even you can see that surely?

Michael, just because the JREFers SAY that something is debunked does NOT prove that something is debunked. You as a critical thinker should know that.

FYI, the official fire collapse theory of the WTC has NEVER EVER been proven. Office fires burn at around 1000F while steel melts or softens at 2700F. JREF has NEVER been able to debunk that, neither has Popular Mechanics. They assume many things without proof.

More: http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1220&start=20
 

Back
Top Bottom