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Moderated Global Warming Discussion

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Consensus on what? That Co2 is a greenhouse gas, and greenhouse gases are causing it to warm? So what.

I'd say a majority, a vast majority, of people agree with that.

As far as what this means for society and how it will change our earth is still being bantered about with varying levels of uncertainty.

Which is why the IPCC has always erred on the conservative side with its projections, the likelihood is that in most incidences the impacts will be more dramatic impact than the projections the IPCC adopted in order to achieve a consensus. A good case in point, sea level rise, uncertainties that were left out of the AR4 have become much more certain over the last few years.:

Higher sea-level forecast likely
TOM ARUP, GOLD COAST
June 30, 2010

THE world's peak scientific body on climate change will ''almost inevitably'' make a big increase in its predictions of sea-level rises due to global warming in its next landmark report in 2014, the vice-chair of the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change says.
 
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I fail to see how the difficulty of the solution changes the truth of the problem.

I fail to see how quoting the plight of the poison dart frog has any bearing on a global warming discussion?

Posing a doomsday scenario makes for great theater but how does that further the discussion on global warming?

I believe the truth of the problem, humanity is changing the planet, and not for the betterment of ecosystems. But this type of thinking only leads to the ultimate question of what is more important human well being or that of the many plants and animals that share the planet with us? We know what happens when it get boiled down to this, the animals and plants lose.

That's ultimately what I see the alarmists doing, and I honestly feel it's part of the reason the public is slowly losing interest in Global Warming. We're like children revolting against over protective and preachy parents. I'm not saying that's a mature attitude to have, but I think it's a reality none the less.
 
An innovative approach to saving glaciers. Stephen Chu was spruiking a similar idea back not long after Obama was elected, paining rooves and roads white to increase the planets albedo.


Andes makeover may save Peru's melting glaciers


By painting the mountains, Eduardo Gold hopes to replicate the effect of Andean glaciers, which reflect back sunlight and hence heat back through the atmosphere. The technique is scientifically plausible and, according to some scientists, may be the only method of lowering global temperatures in a crisis.

''A white surface reflects the sun's rays back through the atmosphere and into space. In doing so, it cools the area around it too,'' said the 55-year-old activist. ''In effect it creates a micro-climate, so we can say that the cold generates more cold, just as heat generates more heat.''

It is hoped the project will slow the melting of the glaciers.
 
The main issue driving my skepticism isn't the weather data being used to substantiate it, but instead the proposals being pushed to "solve" it, and the lack of an accurate comparable trend that would place blame squarely on most of human's activity.

Bolding mine.

I'd say that this has been fairly well established. It's the burning of fossil fuels that has lead to the an increase in global temperature.

What seems to be lacking is a full understanding of the feedbacks in the system that have prevented this enormous release of CO2 from already cooking the planet.

The AGW proponents continue to insist the scientists have made conservative estimates in model predictions, but when you read the studies you find that when they input the actual measured data the models spiral out of control.

The models lack the fidelity to properly handle the data right now so they essentially tone it back.

That's why you continue to get the claims that we are teetering on the verge a catastrophe. At any minute the feedbacks could all give out and the climate could find itself in a runaway state.
 
Which is why the IPCC has always erred on the conservative side with its projections, the likelihood is that in most incidences the impacts will be more dramatic impact than the projections the IPCC adopted in order to achieve a consensus. A good case in point, sea level rise, uncertainties that were left out of the AR4 have become much more certain over the last few years.:

Ha, see I beat you to this conservative estimate thing in responding to Grizzly.

Over the last few weeks I've read several papers that have made comment to the effect that the models don't properly react to data. They basically establish bounds on the data in order to input it to the models.

I'm fairly confident this is why they remain "conservative". I'm not saying there is anything wrong with this either, I'm just saying I think this is a result of not being able to accurately model clouds or even albedo.

Do you have any other explanation for why these estimates are conservative?
 
3bodyproblem to avoid the continued impression of continually moving the goalposts perhaps it would be better if you answered the following questions yes or no.

Does the IPCC AR4 represent the scientific consensus on climate change?

Do you disagree with the conclusions contained within AR4?

Do you consider those who disagree with AR4 but only publish their ideas (or only publish some subset of their ideas) on the internet real legitimate skeptics?
 
Ha, see I beat you to this conservative estimate thing in responding to Grizzly.

Over the last few weeks I've read several papers that have made comment to the effect that the models don't properly react to data. They basically establish bounds on the data in order to input it to the models.

No, they don't.
 
Since one of the features of sophisticated models is hindcast to test it's a bit hard to "limit" that data. :rolleyes:

for instance

The model's 2009 forecast, plus its hindcasts of the previous 14 hurricane seasons -- that's when the data that existed prior to each season is plugged into the model to reforecast the season and then compared to what actually occurred -- really show the model's precision. From 1995 to 2009, the model predicted a mean of 13.7 named storms of which a mean of 7.8 were hurricanes. In reality, the average during this period was 13.8 named storms with a mean of 7.9 hurricanes.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/06/100601162322.htm

Hindcasting to test models is a critical aspect...
Good layman's overview here
http://www.windows2universe.org/earth/climate/cli_models4.html

or you can always pose the question to Gavin et al and get answers from those who actually do this for a living and are recognized worldwide for their work...
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2010/05/on-attribution/
 
I'd say that this has been fairly well established. It's the burning of fossil fuels that has lead to the an increase in global temperature.

What seems to be lacking is a full understanding of the feedbacks in the system that have prevented this enormous release of CO2 from already cooking the planet.

The increase in CO2 so far has never been projected to "cook the planet", so there's no call for mysterious feedbacks which have prevented it. What has happened is that the world has warmed pretty much in line with the way it was projected to thirty years ago - projections that were based on established science.

The feedbacks that were projected to prevent that warming (principally based on cloud behaviour, but including Lindzen's Iris) didn't occur and there's no sign that they ever will.

The AGW proponents continue to insist the scientists have made conservative estimates in model predictions, but when you read the studies you find that when they input the actual measured data the models spiral out of control.

Utter nonsense. The models do not spiral out-of-control. They are physical models which closely mimic the actual behaviour of the climate, because they are based on the same physical principles and constants. Where you get this idea from escapes me. It's certainly not from reading the studies.

The models lack the fidelity to properly handle the data right now so they essentially tone it back.

Not so. Climate models have not gone astray, they are following the actual path of development very well. What has gone astray is the effect of climate change on ice, and for that they depend on what the ice-people say. Modelling ice behaviour (in the environment, not the laboratory) is a far more difficult task than modelling climate. And the ice people definitely erred on the side of caution.

This is understandable, of course. Glaciology self-selects for rather conservative people, people who don't need every day to present a new surprise. It was never an exciting subject until quite recently.

That's why you continue to get the claims that we are teetering on the verge a catastrophe. At any minute the feedbacks could all give out and the climate could find itself in a runaway state.

You have no good reason to think we aren't on the verge of a catastrophe. Even without AGW the world would be in a sorry state, with Peak Oil, Peak Land, no Population Peak close to hand, and an inordinate amount of global production devoted to weaponry. With AGW it just comes on that much sooner.

And the effects persist much longer, of course. That never helps in a crisis.
 
You may think this a little defeatist, and I would tend to agree. But I truly find the alarmists trying to tell everyone how bad it is the real defeatists. They just make people want to give up.

Just to clarify, is everybody who says there's a cause for alarm and therefore something should be done an "alarmist"?

Where do you draw the line?

Is everybody who says the potential cost of doing something about it is a cause for alarm an "alarmist"? After all, they just make people not want to do anything, which is equivalent to giving up.

Of course some people raised the alarm long ago, and have given up on anything being done about it before bad things happen. They were called alarmists then ...

Well, the ones who said Kyoto would bankrupt half the world were being alarmist. They'd mostly said the same about Montreal, so no surprises there. And acid rain before that.

The people who said AGW was a cause for alarm thirty years ago have turned out to be right. So I guess they weren't alarmists.

I'm just guessing, though. "Alarmist" is your word, so you must know better than me what it means.
 
Monday's Panorma "What's Up With The Weather?" is now available on iPlayer, for those in the UK who missed it:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00swp0k/Panorama_Whats_Up_With_the_Weather/

Yet another barbecue summer has been predicted, but do you really trust the forecasters any more? Despite governments, scientists and campaigners telling us the world's climate is changing, increasing numbers of us simply don't believe in global warming.

After one of the coldest winters on record and a vicious row about the science behind climate change, Panorama goes back to basics and asks what we really know about our climate and how it will affect us.

Panorama reporter Tom Heap speaks to some of the world's leading scientists on both sides of the argument, to find out what they can agree on and uncovers some surprising results.
 
Monday's Panorma "What's Up With The Weather?" is now available on iPlayer, for those in the UK who missed it:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00swp0k/Panorama_Whats_Up_With_the_Weather/

What the heck is Panorama and what idiocy leads them to believe that there are two seperate opposing and equally legitimate scientific perspectives upon the issues of climate change?

ADDENDUM: After a brief look at Wiki (because BBC show links apparently only work if you are in England), I now understand, what I don't understand is how sensationalist tabloid TV links and recent political blog discussions are making it on to a moderated discussion board about the science of Global Warming?
 
After one of the coldest winters on record

Which planet was that? :confused:

Canada's warmest winter ever 'beyond shocking'

Season was balmiest, driest on record

BY MARGARET MUNRO, CANWEST NEWS SERVICE MARCH 10, 2010 COMMENTS (328)

From the balmy Arctic, to the open water of the St. Lawrence and snowless western fields, this winter has been the warmest and driest in Canadian record books.

Environment Canada scientists report that winter 2009/10 was 4 C above normal, making it the warmest since nationwide records were first kept in 1948. It was also the driest winter on the 63-year record, with precipitation 22 per cent below normal nationally, and down 60 per cent in parts of Alberta, Saskatchewan and Ontario.

"It's beyond shocking," David Phillips, a senior climatologist with Environment Canada, said Tuesday. Records have been shattered from "coast to coast to coast."

Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/techno...ond+shocking/2666979/story.html#ixzz0sSP0S6Fu

2010: Warmest year on record

CAPTIONBy Amr Nabil, AP
Two separate sources of temperature data – the National Climatic Data Center and NASA – report that, through April, 2010 is the warmest year ever recorded.

The climate center (NCDC) reports that the Earth's combined land and ocean average surface temperature from January-April was 56 degrees, which is 1.24 degrees above the 20th-century average.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/sciencefair/post/2010/05/2010-is-warmest-year-on-record/1
 
The increase in CO2 so far has never been projected to "cook the planet", so there's no call for mysterious feedbacks which have prevented it. What has happened is that the world has warmed pretty much in line with the way it was projected to thirty years ago - projections that were based on established science.

The feedbacks that were projected to prevent that warming (principally based on cloud behaviour, but including Lindzen's Iris) didn't occur and there's no sign that they ever will.

Would you agree or disagree that the model predictions have been, for lack of a better word "toned back" since the late 70's? If you agree, why? If not I'll have to dig up some papers and go from there.


Utter nonsense. The models do not spiral out-of-control. They are physical models which closely mimic the actual behaviour of the climate, because they are based on the same physical principles and constants. Where you get this idea from escapes me. It's certainly not from reading the studies.

Do you know what super sensitivity is? I don't think you are. I suggest you read up on it and get back to me. I don't think you fully understand how they input data into the models. Most likely because you're only concerned with the results. I'll bookmark any interesting papers I find and post them in this thread as I see them. I'll search for the ones I've read and try to post them here as well.


Not so. Climate models have not gone astray, they are following the actual path of development very well. What has gone astray is the effect of climate change on ice, and for that they depend on what the ice-people say. Modelling ice behaviour (in the environment, not the laboratory) is a far more difficult task than modelling climate. And the ice people definitely erred on the side of caution.
This is understandable, of course. Glaciology self-selects for rather conservative people, people who don't need every day to present a new surprise. It was never an exciting subject until quite recently.

And clouds, convection, albedo...I'm sure there are others that I can't think of right now. I realize researchers never want to admit anything is complete, that closes the flow of funds. But there are many areas that need much, much more study before the models have the fidelity we need to make important decisions on what to do and where.


You have no good reason to think we aren't on the verge of a catastrophe. Even without AGW the world would be in a sorry state, with Peak Oil, Peak Land, no Population Peak close to hand, and an inordinate amount of global production devoted to weaponry. With AGW it just comes on that much sooner.
And the effects persist much longer, of course. That never helps in a crisis.

Aside from the fact that I heard this mantra preached 15 years ago? No there isn't a good reason to think we aren't on the verge of a catastrophe. The research indicates it's very unlikely, but not zero.(Sandia 2010)

I'm just no convinced the money isn't better spent on researching mitigation techniques instead of simply raising the kWh rates. The transportation sector needs to substantially reduce CO2. I don't see a lot of research in this area. I know Cummings is researching Liquid Natural Gas (LNG) in trucks, but aside from that I just don't see them making any headway.

Don't kid yourself, there technology out there right now that could reduce CO2 by 90% at coal and natural gas power plants. It's not even new technology, it's been around for 60 years and they use it in making commercial CO2. It's just that it would jack the price of electricity up to about $80/MW to produce. That would bankrupt the country in a matter of months. And that would reduce US emissions by what overall? 25%? at best.

To answer your question about alarmists, alarmists are the ones carrying on about the polar bears and nuclear energy. They seem to be doing a lot of talking but they really don't have a solution. In fact in many cases they are misleading people into believing we can do something about this right now. Aside from conservation and recycling, which should be second nature to everyone by now, there currently isn't a solution to the problem.
 
Perhaps someone with rather more experience and training in the field might weigh in with a different thought about "solutions"....

Take real action on climate change – Part 2 – the FAQ
Posted on 25 June 2010 by Barry Brook

This post follows on directly from part 1, which you can read here. Here, a list of frequently asked questions (FAQ) on climate change and nuclear energy are answered. These are quite deliberately not technical – you won’t find explanations of adiabatic lapse rates, actinide isotopes or Brayton cycle efficiency here! Nope… these are ‘big picture’ questions. I hope you find them stimulating, easy to understand, and appropriate to their target audience – the average ‘Joe’ and ‘Josephine’. Once again, this material was authored primarily by Marion Brook, in collaboration with various other BNC commenters. Thanks to you all for your efforts in developing this everyman’s guide.
much more to read on specific categories...
http://bravenewclimate.com/2010/06/25/take-real-cc-action-p2/

from
Professor Barry Brook holds the Foundation Sir Hubert Wilkins Chair of Climate Change and is Director of Climate Science at The Environment Institute, University of Adelaide.

He has published three books and over 150 peer-reviewed scientific papers, and regularly writes opinion pieces and popular articles for the media. He has received a number of distinguished awards in recognition of his research excellence, which addresses the topics of climate change, computational and statistical modelling and the synergies between human impacts on Earth systems.
more
http://bravenewclimate.com/about/

supported opinion with the chops to back it up .
 
Interesting argument.

Why exactly do the computational models turn to parametrization in large scale models then?

Do you even know what super sensitivity is?

I don't know. How about you source the papers you cite then we can all judge for ourselves?
 
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