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Ed All 43 videos "Second Hit"" [Explosion]at WTC 2: Plane or No Plane?

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Hi, I'd like to chip in.

By the way, I have not seen so much ad hominem attacks in one thread in a long time. 33 pages, seriously? And yet you all keep coming back...

(On a sidenote, I'm not allowed to post URLs here so I apologize for referencing my sources in a more cumbersome way.)

Well then, I've looked at the videos and after doing some research there are several things that struck me as curious. Maybe some of you could help me out with them.

1) What I find weird is that not in one video segment (maybe save the suspicious "tinacart" clip) there's anyone who would mention noticing the approaching plane before the explosion. What do you make of that?
Gee, that's a tough one. I guess the only conclusion to be drawn is there were no planes that hit the WTC towers.
2) The color "filters" on several segments look also very weird. It was a clear sunny day on 911, right? Yet some of the clips are wholly painted over with unreal colors such as violet, brown or blue... Not to mention that the backdrop in those clips is gone.
When we were rendering the animated planes over the stock footage backdrop of New York, it just didn't look right. The particular frames I was in charge of looked particularly cartoonish. We were told by our superiors that we needed to blur the finalized renderings so that they didn't look so much like a Porky Pig cartoon. I chose a sepia brown wash over mine.
3) Also I remember that at the pentagon there was this Mark Walter figure convincing everyone that upon impact a jetliner compacts its wings:
(see 1st video on youtube searching "mike walter 911")
Why didn't it happen at WTC then?
Actually, it did happen. We didn't think the general public would buy it, though. So, we airbrushed wing holes onto the sides of the buildings in order to further inflame the American public and move them closer to war with Iraq.
4) About witnesses - I'm sorry but I haven't heard of any "thousands" that would positively identify a 757 to have hit the second tower. I don't doubt some exist though. But as seen here: (look up Brasscheck TV, then navigate "the 9/11 files" and "The 9/11 Solution - RESTORED" )
it was not impossible to have false witnesses planted on the site.
On the other hand there were other witness accounts that are widely being ignored now by the media or the strict followers of the official line:
(see "watch?v=8n-nT-luFIw" on Youtube)
How can you have witnesses to something that didn't happen. C'mon now. Think!
5) In fact there's this website that I'd have expected a self-proclaimed Noplaner would use to their defense, that shows how the videos could have been doctored. Now I'm not saying that I'm buying into everything they have to say but some of it looks serious enough to merit discussion IMHO:
(septembersclues<dot>info)
Could have been doctored? Could have been? They were doctored, alright, and convincingly so. We're good at what we do.


Now please don't stick the labels Noplaner, DEWnut or other on me, I'd just like to have the above points accounted for somehow. Thanks.
Charmer, within this thread I've been conducting a little poll and was wondering if you might like to participate as the rest of us have. In your opinion, based on the 43 Videos video, would you vote PLANE or NO PLANE?
 
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Any 'No Planer' who asserts that there were no witnesses to the planes hittting the towers clearly has NEVER been to Manhattan.
Most 'no-planers' I have seen peddling their idiotic theory online tend to be European or Australian.

There are thousands of people wandering about the streets on New York City every morning, particulalry at rush hour- plus it is a major tourist center...NY is always a busy place.

It is to be hoped that some of the thread's "fallacy' vigilantes will send a PM to TitanicExplorer pointing out the fallacies in the above quoted post.

I think I can be of assistance here in providing a sampling of the data from which reliable and verifiable NYC witnesses can be found.

As posters know, I have always acknowledged there are witnesses who say they saw and heard a plane. I know of about 20 who I consider reliable.

The problem is, there are more reliable and verifiable witnesses who say they saw and hear an explosion in a context where, had they seen and heard a plane, it is more likely they would have said so, rather than that they had observed an explosion.

Here is a complilation of reliable evidence, containing both NO PLANE and PLANE SPOTTER evidence and information:

For posters who are fans of JREF, you have no better or faster alternative other than that of reviewing the 60+ pages of the two Dick Oliver threads found at:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171082

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174043

Those threads deal with many of the witness accounts, as well as the valid video data and audio data.

You can also review the PAPD accounts can be found at:

http://adam.pra.to/public/mir/www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/

You should also take some time to familiarize yourself with the 503 Task Force Witness statements (which I claim is the single best source of witness accounts and a source that easily qualifies as valid evidence)

Those can be found at;

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packag...12_WTC_GRAPHIC/met_WTC_histories_full_01.html

Once again, the above link is your best source of eyewitness information, bar none. It contains the best of the PLANE SPOTTER witnesses and the best of the NO PLANE witnesses.

I also suggest you avoid like the plague the jingoistic debunker websites that provide newspaper accounts and that ignore, completely, the fact that there are NO PLANE witnesses, who they do not reference, mention or otherwise acknowledge.

Another interesing source is the Ginny Carr audio:

http://www.sonicmemorial.org/sonic/public/archive.jsp

type in Ginny Carr

And the following video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuIACIpon7w&feature=player_embedded#!

The title of the above video is Amateur Footage Pt. 2.

And, you are also presently in the right place. The ALL 43 videos are an important source of witness accounts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc2tfVuaSrg

So, in review, you have (in order of importance, imho):

1--Task Force Witness Statements

2--1:16 Dick Oliver video

3--10:00 Dick Oliver video


4--ALL 43 second hits video, the subject matter of this thread.

5--PAPD police reports


6--Amateur Footage Pt. 2

7--Ginny Carr audio

This thread has also turned up some interesting information that is worthy of consideration.

There has been a link to the entire archive of teevee footage:

http://www.televisionarchive.org/sep...ml#September11

That archive link was provided by Thunder:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6037050&postcount=894

And, more recently Femr2 posted up a source for HD videos:

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_lis...1AE6E3F5C7FF8D

All of the above can be used to help sort out the strengths and the weaknesses of both NO PLANE and PLANE SPOTTER claims.
 
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110138.PDF

Q. Your name, sir?
A. Joseph Pfeifer, Battalion Chief, Battalion 1.
Q. Sir, on September 11, 2001, could you tell me
the events that took place that day?
A. Okay. I was working the night before in the
1st Battalion, and sometime about 8:15 or so in the
morning we got a call to Lispenard and Church for a
gas leak in the street. We were there for a while
checking on the gas leak, and then we heard the loud
roar of the plane come over, and we turned around and
we looked and we saw the plane coming down, heading
south towards the Trade Center, and made a direct hit
on the Trade Center.
Q. You actually saw it hit?
A. I saw it hit. Within about ten seconds after
that or so I gave the first report on the radio and
transmitted a second alarm for a plane into the Trade
Center, and then shortly after that, the units I was
with, I told them all to start in to the Trade Center,
and shortly after that I found a radio to transmit the
third alarm.
 
A couple of videos for you to think about Jammonius.

B52 Bomber crash

this video basically shows that if a plane hits something solid like the ground at high speed, it will explode on impact. I think the flash of light before the airplane hits the ground was the end of the wing clipping a powerline.

Air France Crash in Trees

on the other hand, this video shows that a plane can smash through lots of trees before exploding. this is like one of the twin towers, where the steel structure is NOT solid like the ground, but more like a whole bunch of tree trunks, which would still take a lot of force to break. this proves that airplanes don't always explode immediately ON IMPACT with something, like trees or a steel structure.

the airplanes that hit the twin towers were travelling a lot faster, so the would have a lot more force to punch through the structure, which they did. the side effect of smashing through the steel structure was that the airplane broke up, causing the fuel to explode, but only after the fuel had mixed with the air. this was less than a second after the plane hit, which is pretty much an explosion on impact in my mind.

Matt,

I think the issues you raise above were adequately addressed way back on pg 3, including a posting on that B-52 crash.

See:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5940901&postcount=91

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5940920&postcount=92

Planes explode and degrade on impact. That was not seen in the videos to have happened at the South Tower.
 
sorry

I know that post length and sanity are often inversely correlated, but since I had a minute.
Witness accounts said:
Lakshman Achutan (audio interview)

Lakshman Achutan was attending a meeting on the ground floor of the north tower of the World Trade Center when it was attacked. He describes the initial impact, his escape, and his view of the second plane as it approached the south tower.
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/afc911bib:@field(DOCID+@lit(afc911000144))

Sgt. 1st Class Stephen Atha

While sitting in the Chevy Suburban, he told his coworker it looked like the World Trade Center was on fire. As he turned on the radio and heard that a "small plane" had crashed into Tower One, "we saw the second plane come in as clear as day over the water right into the building, and ... I said 'This was not an accident,'" Atha said.
http://www.dcmilitary.com/dcmilitary_archives/stories/101801/11338-1.shtml

Daniel Bang

Daniel Bang, a 21-year-old financial analyst, was about one block away when he watched the second plane hit the South Tower.
"I had no idea what was going on, I just saw the side of the building explode out, he said.
http://www.sfgate.com/today/0912_chron_nyscene.shtml

Rich Bautista

Rich Bautista, 56, a construction consultant, was headed to a 9 a.m. appointment on 59 Maiden Lane, two blocks away from the World Trade Center, when he heard the first blast. "It was so fast, it was so loud," he recalls. "I just came out of the Fulton Street subway when I heard this terrifying explosion. I looked up and saw smoke surrounding the World Trade Center. People started running. There was mass hysteria." Bautista's co-worker Ernie Kneuer, 29, saw flames pouring out of the building. They went up to the 40th floor of their building just in time to see the second plane collide. "I saw dozens of people jumping to their deaths from the 80th floor," says Kneuer. "Bodies were landing on nearby rooftops and on the plaza."
http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/sept11/features/5183

Mark Belair

I saw the second plane hit. I had just come out of the subway at Sixth Avenue and West Fourth and noticed everyone on the sidewalk looking up. I followed their gaze to see a tremendous black gash in the north tower, about 30 blocks away, and overheard someone say a plane had just crashed into the building. At first we thought it must have been an accident, a small plane that lost control. Then it dawned on me that the damage was too great for a small plane or an accident. I figured it must have been an act of terrorism - horrible, but over. Then the second plane banked in low and, as I watched, slammed through the south tower and exploded into a fireball.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/parents/story/0,,554123,00.html

John Bloom

Then, as he watched horrified, Bloom saw the second plane approach: "For a moment it was pointed directly at me, then about five seconds before impact the pilot made an adjustment and banked about 20 degrees. He was making a correction! To go in at an angle? To make sure he hit the center?
"He sailed in so smoothly. There was that little moment when you see a plane level out before it touches down. It almost eased into the building. I waited for the blast, and it was strangely delayed. He entered on the opposite side of the tower but I saw the fire shoot out of my side before I heard the explosion. He had hit much lower, around the 50th floor, and this time the gash was infinitely worse."
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20060905/ai_n16707300

Jennifer Bodner

When she saw the second plane, she thought it was some sort of rescue plane, coming to help, or to put out the fire.
“I don’t know what I was thinking,” she said. “Then it hit the second building. I don’t even remember what happened after that. We all looked at each other and said, ‘We have to get out.’”
www.dailyhome.com (Web Archive copy)

Jena Bridges

Jena Bridges, a fifth-year law associate, was in a partner’s office at Broadway and 42nd Street waiting for a conference call when smoke and flames erupted from the north tower.
"One of the partners said, ‘Holy ◊◊◊◊!’ I turned around and looked out the window and said, ‘Oh my God,’" Bridges said. "Then as we were watching, we saw the second plane bank around into the second building, and there was this huge ball of fire."
http://www.cdalumni.org/news/vii1/November 2001/nyc-attacks.html

Richard and Cathy Brown

It was then that we heard and saw the second plane. As soon as we saw it, the basic shape of the attack became clear to me. We saw the pilot level the wings and heard him gun the engines, as if on takeoff. We couldn't see the actual impact, because of a building in front of us, but it exploded right above us.
September 11: An Oral History, Dean E. Murphy

Ralph Buchalter

"I thought I was a goner," said Ralph Buchalter, a friend of this reporter who works at the American Stock Exchange. "I saw the second plane hit. I was late going to work. The towers are two blocks from where I work.
http://members.aol.com/wockner/attack.html

James Calcagnini

James Calcagnini '84, president of East Coast Options Services, a commodities brokerage firm, worked in Building 4, adjacent to the second tower... As he walked across the courtyard, he looked up to see first tower ablaze and minutes later heard a roar and saw the second plane strike....
http://www.nd.edu/~ndmag/w2001-02/9-11survive.html

Ted Campanello

Ted Campanello '85 worked on the 29th floor of WTC Building 7 (the smaller, third building to collapse) as a vice president for Salomon Smith Barney. He was on his way to the building and looking up at the smoke coming from the first tower when he saw the second plane coming out of the corner of his eye. When it hit, he ran into the basement of the Hilton Millennium Hotel but after about five minutes went back outside and headed east...
http://www.nd.edu/~ndmag/w2001-02/9-11survive.html

Dana Carey

‘There's another plane,’ I exclaimed. We watched as it disappeared behind the first tower and was transformed into a ball of fire...
http://www.sygeplejersken.dk/sygeplejersken/default.asp?intArticleID=7006

FIREFIGHTER JOSEPH CASALIGGI
I left my rollup and my standpipe kit in the lobby. I went outside to the rig, changed the cylinder. While I was changing the cylinder, I was keeping an eye because the chauffeur was hooking up to the standpipe. I was keeping an eye, making sure he didn't get hit with anything.
It was at that time when I saw the second plane hit the building. I called a mayday. I told them the second plane hit the south tower of the building. I wasn't sure which floors it was, but I knew it hit the upper floors of the south tower.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110430.PDF

Peter Collins

Another co-worker, Peter Collins, a vice-president at Rowland Communications, saw the second plane strike the second tower.
"As we're watching the building on fire, I saw this plane sweep over the bay and I knew it was from Newark," Collins said. "It kept climbing, and all of a sudden it just went into the building. There was a spectacular fire and then a few seconds later you heard a pop. It went directly towards it, never deviated."
He said the scene was surreal.
"You're so used to terrorism happening all around you and you become numb to it," Collins said. "You see the spectacular happening right in front of you and you're just like 'whoa.' "
http://www.esubjects.com/curric/general/english_two/unit_two/pdf/ItWasAwful_HardNews.pdf

Carl Cunneff

Police guided us across the West Side Highway, then we heard a loud roar and looked up to see a second jet headed right for the south tower. We heard the engines speed up as it turned sideways and hit the corner of the building head on. It looked like it melted into a fireball.
http://web.archive.org/web/20010914...l.com/people/special/0,11859,174592-3,00.html

EMT SEAN CUNNIFFE
We were lined up on West Street, west side, right by the pedestrian bridge, between six and one, over here somewhere. I don't remember the supervisor's name, but they had us line up, put our stretchers and equipment on it. We were just waiting for further instruction.
As we were waiting there, counting the people jumping, that's when we saw the scope of it. We counted 39 people. It was sad. That's when it stopped being exciting and reality kicked in and we were hanging out.
The second plane came in. It was the biggest noise I ever heard in my life.
Q. Did you see the plane?
A. Yeah. We saw it, we heard it, we felt the heat from it, the debris. We ducked under a truck...
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110164.PDF

PARAMEDIC KEVIN DARNOWSKI
Right before the tolls on the Brooklyn side heading towards Manhattan at the Battery Tunnel, we were sitting in traffic and we watched United Flight 175 hit tower two, which was the south tower of the World Trade Center.
At that time everybody was just in shock. The firefighters and I were just really trying to get through the traffic when the plane hit, and we were just standing there in like awe of what was happening.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110202.PDF

Daya-Dominguez
Gabriella Daya-Dominquez (Husband worked in the South Tower of the World Trade Center on 9/11)
"My husband in the meantime, what was occurring with him at that moment was he was just entering his office. He was about 200 yards from the building. He saw the plane coming very low overhead. He saw it make a U-turn and bank right into his building. At that point he said he knew that this was not an accident, this was an attack and all hell broke lose. The pandemonium in the city was already going on. First with the North Tower. People were just standing there staring. They weren't really running, they were just watching. But by the second tower hitting people started running frantically.
http://www.arlingtonva.us/departments/Libraries/history/LibrariesHistoryOralHist911Citizens.aspx (Currently Broken)

Police Officer Tracey Donahoo

"One of the officers behind me said, 'Oh my God, Tracey, another airplane is coming!' I could hear the plane just coming and coming, and the engine was getting louder and louder. Then I heard it hit the South Tower. There was a shower of debris and parts of the plane... Airplane parts were falling and crushing police cars...
Women at Ground Zero, Susan Hagen and Mary Carouba

Greg Dubinsky

At the time, I was on the eighth floor, watching through the window, after we were informed that the first plane had hit. And I actually saw the second plane vanish behind the building. And the building just erupted in a cloud, a huge cloud of explosion. And I witnessed people jumping, I guess out of desperation from the towers.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/15/smn.12.html

Ingrid Ernst

Ingrid Ernst, a flight attendant on Lufthansa Airlines, was looking out her hotel window across the Hudson River from New York City on Tuesday morning when she saw a jumbo jet penetrate the second World Trade Center building.
``It was going as fast as a regular plane. I didn't realize what was happening, Ernst, 23, of Hamburg, Germany, told the Daily News by phone from the Sheraton Hotel in Weehawken, New Jersey.
Ernst was relaxing by her window, planning her vacation in Los Angeles today, when she saw one of the hijacked passenger planes crash into the middle-to-upper floors of one of America's tallest landmarks.
``You saw the plane disappear, then fire on the other side, she said of the jet, which appeared small from her vantage across the river. ``It was like you are in a movie - it takes you awhile to realize what's happening. You're just shocked, you can't think anything at the moment.

Daily News, September 12 2001

Evan Fairbanks

(VO) In a day filled with images we may never forget, this one stands out. The extraordinary footage of an American Airlines jet slicing through the number two tower of the World Trade Center. That image was captured by 40-year-old freelance cameraman Evan Fairbanks who had been working two blocks away.
Mr. EVAN FAIRBANKS: I suddenly saw a white flash from the left side of the frame, and I--and it lasted long enough for me to be able to identify it as a--as a jet.
CHUNG: When you saw that plane hitting the Trade Center tower, could you actually fathom what you were viewing?
Mr. FAIRBANKS: Not at all. It was very surreal. I felt like I was in another dimension, and, you know, we weren't even on the same planet. I guess as the human stories start to emerge, and we see more people, and we hear more names, it will become a lot more real to me. But right now, I feel like I'm still in the bubble of--of the day, and the whole experience is just kind of numbing.
CHUNG: (VO) Fairbanks has been a cameraman for 16 years. But today he wasn't operating on ex-perience; it was instinct. And that's what drew him back for one last shot. That's when the tower began to collapse.
Mr. FAIRBANKS: I was looking in the view finder, and I just saw this reverse mushroom cloud billowing down, and I realized my proximity, and immediately just turned and started running north.
CHUNG: (VO) But for Evan Fairbanks, this is the image that will haunt him and us for the rest of our lives.
Mr. FAIRBANKS: The image of that plane, just coming out of nowhere, coming into the frame and dis-appearing into the side, into the south side of the tower as if a floor had been hollowed out and it was a hanger that it was just landing in. We've seen these images in movies, and we know that it's all artificial, and Hollywood makes it. And it's hard to put together that it's real this time.
America Under Attack, ABC News, 10pm September 11 2001

EMT JARJEAN FELTON
...I seen the second plane coming. I'm thinking isn't that plane too low? I'm like... then I noticed, I seen it turn. It turned and went right in the building. But we're behind, like this is the building, it went in, and you see the explosion in the front...
Q: On the other side than you?
A: Yeah...
http://sfgate.com/gate/pictures/2005/09/10/ga_jarjean_felton.pdf

FIREFIGHTER THOMAS GABY
Q. The second plane?
A. I saw it coming in, I heard it, and bang, it hit.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110140.PDF

FIREFIGHTER JOSEPH GALASSO

After the first plane hit, we were here, actually. We could see the towers actually from here. So after the first plane hit, we saw it on the news. So we came up here to look out the window, and we saw it. We watched the second plane hit. Just as the second plane hit, that's when we received the alarm.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110322.PDF

Nicholas Gasper

Nicholas Gasper, a city transit employee who was standing on the Brooklyn side of the Brooklyn Bridge, said he watched the second plane "doing a tilt into the building. From what I saw, it looked like the plane sliced into the tower."
Arkansas Democrat-Gazette, September 12 2001

Karen Lane Gilsenan

Then, it happened again. We saw an airplane, coming from the south and headed right toward the second WTC tower. It looked so odd there. Planes are never flying in the middle of Manhattan like that. We were so close that I knew that it was a United Airlines plane. Yet the moment I saw the plane, it was clear that terrorists were attacking NYC. We all screamed. I grabbed my bag and ran for the stairs. "Get out, get out," we yelled as we ran.
www.wheaton.edu (Web Archive copy)

John Del Giorno, Helicopter Reporter, WABC-TV New York

We were climbing through eleven hundred feet towards an assigned altitude of fifteen hundred feet, and then we saw it. Paul Smith, my pilot, saw it before I did - an airliner, traveling from south to north, traveling low and fast.
"Now what's this guy doing?" I asked Paul.
"You see this yahoo?" he shot back...
I could see the rear profile with engines on both wings as it approached the statue [of Liberty]. A Boeing 737, I thought. And then it dipped. Not a graceful, gradual airliner turn like you see in commercials; this was a sharp, abrupt turn that put the plane into a forty-five-degree bank, and it flew into the shade being created by the smoke plume from the north tower...
I moved and focused the camera, placed the remote in my lap, pressed "play" and "record," and looked back up my camera monitor. It now contained the image of a huge fireball.
"Did he just...?"...
"Holy ****," Paul said calmly. "Yeah. He just hit the building!"

Covering Catastrophe: Broadcast Journalists Report September 11

Police Officer James E. Hall

While assisting a female burn victim, I observed PO Rivero look up towards the WTC tower #2. At this time the undersigned heard the sound of jet engines and observed an aircraft with a blue color tail fly directly into the south face of WTC Tower #2.
http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-police-reports01.pdf

Tara L. Harper

I was actually six blocks south of the World Trade Center at work when this attack happened. I heard about the first plane, and SAW the second plane hit. Once the second plane hit we knew it was terrorism and left our building.
http://unbound.intrasun.tcnj.edu/unbound/signal/miracle.htm

Stuart Hoffman

I happened to look up just as the other plane came in and crashed into the World Trade Center. I saw the plane, I saw it crash through, the ball of flame.
www.nationalstudent.tv (Web Archive copy)

FIREFIGHTER SCOTT HOLOWACH
At that time, I started walking towards Engine 3. Engine 3 drove south to the south pedestrian bridge to make a U turn to come back and as I'm walking towards the Engine to find out what Lieutenant Walsh wanted us to do, I heard the sound of a jet plane. I looked up and saw it pretty close and I was like holy ****. What's going on with the with the flight patterns. All of a sudden, the wings turned and it dove right into the building and it was screwed up.
At that time Chief Ganci was behind me and he thought there was another explosion in the north tower and that's when I turned around and said Chief, listen, there is a second plane that hit the other tower. He was like no no no no, we have another explosion. I said no, Chief, I witnessed it. I watched the plane hit the other tower. He is like are you sure. I said Chief, I'm 100 hundred percent positive I watched the second plane hit the other tower.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110114.PDF

Arthur E. Imperatore Jr

...Arthur E. Imperatore Jr., president of NY Waterway, based in Weehawken, N.J., said he had dropped his kids off at school and was driving to his office when he saw the second aircraft hit the other WTC tower. "From my car I could see both towers burning.
http://www.fireboat.org/press/prof_mariner_jan02_1.asp

Melissa Johnson

...I heard some shouts and a bunch of footsteps. A swarm of people was running towards me. Above the people I saw a big jet aimed at the World Trade Center. In a second, it became buried into the South Tower.
September 11: An Oral History, Dean E. Murphy

Dana Kincaid

I passed by the WTC a few minutes before the first impact, but did not hear or see it -- I must have been in the elevator of my building when that happened. When I got to our office cafeteria, a group of people were watching the fire in the north tower, a few blocks directly north of us.
At 9:14 am, I sent this e-mail via Blackberry to my husband:
I saw it! I saw the second plane fly right into the south tower. We wee looking at the fire from the first crash, which we heard was a small plane. The second plane was a JET. It was a big plane, looked like a 727, AND IT WAS DELIBERATE. I can't tell you how upset I am.
http://angrytoyrobot.blogspot.com/2006/09/another-one.html

Bruce Kratofil

...both Rachel and I heard a plane. Looking over the southern tip of Manhatten, we could see the United jet roaring in, just skimming the tops of the buildings. Normally, when you see a jet that close, it is taking off or landing and is moving relatively slowly. This one was at full throttle. I remember yelling something like "What's he doing there?" but it went quickly behind us and was blocked from view by the buildings along the water. We didn't see the impact, but we could hear it and feel it.
http://www.bjkresearch.com/ny

Adolfo Laurenti

“I saw this airplane coming from, I spotted around uh above the Statue of Liberty and coming in and coming down and down and my thoughts was that it was probably doing some form of reconocance [sic] over lower Manhattan to see what was coming in and when it got closer I thought well maybe its not a great idea to have a jet liner to deal reconocance over a you know populated area.”
Then it kept coming down and down and one point you had to realize, its really a matter of second but you had to realize that its not going to move up.
www.nationalstudent.tv (Web Archive copy)

Seymour Levy

It was approximately 8:50 AM, on a spectacular picture perfect New York City September morning, as I ascended the steps of the Canal Street subway station in lower Manhattan. It was then that I noticed a crowd of spectators all pointing skyward... southward towards Manhattan's tip. Then I saw it. Thick black smoke and flames emanating from the top floors of one of the twin towers.
"I think a plane hit the building," commented of one of the bystanders. I thought to myself, could this be possible on such a crystal clear day? My next thoughts were, how are the firemen ever going to get to reach those trapped in this inferno? As I gaped in awe, I saw it happen. Another plane smashed into the second tower emitting a gigantic fire ball and explosion. Is this really happening? Is this some sort of special effect Hollywood production I'm seeing? A frenzy of police sirens, and fire truck horns erupted, coming from all directions racing downtown at a maddening pace.
http://americanhistory.si.edu/september11/collection/record.asp?ID=108

Jacalyn Lee

Jacalyn Lee was on her way to work a few blocks from the Trade Center shortly before 9 a.m. when a low-flying plane roared above her.
"I said to the guy next to me, "It's going to crash in. It's going to crash in.' Then it crashed in, Lee said. "You thought anybody who was in there had to be dead.
http://www.sfgate.com/today/0912_chron_nyscene.shtml

Mark Lewis

MICHAEL MCKEE, BLOOMBERG NEWS
I was in a taxi, heading down Manhattan’s West Side Highway for a conference at the World Trade Center when the first airliner flew over us and crashed into the North Tower. It was 8:50 a.m.
Traffic came to an immediate halt. I jumped from the cab, climbed the fence and ran three blocks to the trade center as it began falling apart. I interviewed witnesses, including two financial industry workers riding their bikes to work.
"It was like a mirage," said Mark Lewis, a systems analyst at Citigroup Inc.’s Salomon Smith Barney unit. "I looked up and saw (the plane) melting into the building."
Just then we heard a tremendous noise, looked up and saw another large passenger plane slam into the South Tower, 50 or 60 stories up. Glass and debris rained down as we ran into a nearby building.
The Beaumont Enterprise, September 12 2001
http://www.poynterextra.org/extra/pdf/BeaumontEnterpriseW.pdf

Sherman Lewis

[Northwestern University] Trustee Sherman Lewis, whose office in the World Financial Center is across the street from the World Trade Center, was driving to work when he saw the plane crash into the building. He turned around and went home, said Ronald Vanden Dorpel, vice president for university development.
University Wire, September 21, 2001

Dina Manieri

Dina Manieri, who works for Morgan Stanley in Exchange Place, saw the plane hit the second building.
"My God. It's worse than the devil. I think this is the Third World War . That somebody could do this on purpose . . ." she trailed off shaking and crying.
The Star-Ledger (Newark, New Jersey), September 11 2001

EMT BRAD MANN

"We arrived shortly after the first plane hit the tower and began setting up EMS operations," says Mann. "By the time we realized what happened, we looked up and saw the second plane hit the second tower, and within a few minutes we were just running for our lives. It was like nothing I have ever seen in 15 years."
http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/CA_Archives/CA_Show_Article/0,2322,182,00.html

Assistant FBI Director Barry Mawn

I could see the north tower from here and really a huge black hole which was still, you know, some fire and smoking on the north side of the tower.
My initial thought was this was a terrible accident, but I requested that these people start to respond to the World Trade complex and that I would meet them down there. We were observing the evacuation when we actually saw the second plane come down, flying north to south, actually turn around. And then we lost it momentarily behind the buildings, and then the next time we saw it, it was headed straight for the south tower.
http://www-cgi.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0202/18/lt.17.html

Gene McGillian (unspecific - could be either plane)

"I saw (the plane) maybe 200 yards before it hit," said Gene McGillian of Dobbs Ferry, a broker at the New York Mercantile Exchange. "I saw all kinds of debris and body parts on the ground and on car hoods. You had to move pretty quickly because there were pieces of metal hitting the ground. It was horrible."
http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20010912/SPECIAL01/109120302/-1/SPECIAL0106

Kimberly Morales

"It was banking and it was flying far too low," says Kimberly Morales, a college student who was coming out of the Chambers Street subway station. "I could see a little bit of space between its nose and the South Tower. And then they came together in a big explosion and a huge ball of fire. It was instant."
September 11: An Oral History, Dean E. Murphy

Murray Murad

Maybe about 10 to 12 minutes after that first plane, I heard another plane. Then I said to myself, weíre being attacked.
I ran downstairs. No sooner did I run downstairs and look up, that I saw the second plane strike the south tower. It was such a vicious hit and such a precision hit, it was unbelievable.
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/Murad_Murray.txt

FIREFIGHTER JAMES MURPHY
After that I ran up to the roof on the third floor with me and Eric Bernsten. We were watching it. We could see it from here. We have an unobstructed view. The other guys came up too. All six of us were on the roof...
Then we saw the second one come up. It looked like it was coming up the East River from here. I guess it was coming from the south. I thought it banked over the East River, which is what it looked like. I thought it made a left over the East River and went right into it going from east to west. But as it turns out, it came from the south. Then we saw it just go right into the building and explode.
I remember talking to Eric. I remember Eric saying something, "Oh, my God, there's another plane." I was saying to him, "That plane is closer to us. It's really not a big plane going towards the building." Two seconds later it rammed into the building. You don't expect it. We just freaked.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110323.PDF

Haleh Nazeri

I stood on the street with about 100 or so other people and watched the fire with horror. Then all of a sudden I saw another plane, it was so loud and so low and so wrong. I knew before it even hit in that fraction of a second that something was terribly wrong and that my world would never be the same. When the plane hit, as you have all now seen, it created quite a bit of debris, which I saw flying towards me. The entire crowd turned and starting running the other way.
http://www.iranian.com/Features/2001/September/911/


Andrew Nelson

"There was no sound as these tremendous buildings went down," said Andrew Nelson of San Francisco, who was in New York visiting family and friends. "The World Trade Center was there this morning. I'm looking where the towers should be and they are not there."
Nelson was having coffee in a friend's West Broadway loft when the first of the hijacked commercial jets slammed into the World Trade Center.
"I'm watching the World Trade Center go up in flames," he said at 8:55 a.m., not knowing that he was watching the signature moment of the most staggering terrorist attack on the United States unfold.
"All of a sudden we heard this whoosh of low-flying jet, there was this murmur in the streets, knots of people were looking south and started screaming.
"The entire World Trade Center is on fire. Look at the shrapnel falling. It is falling into the streets."
Several minutes later, with crowds of store clerks, office workers and tourists gaping at the destruction, a second plane appeared in the sky.
"This plane banked around the side of the World Trade Center looking like it was going right at it. There was a huge fireball and it just exploded. People on the street screamed, cried no, no, no, and sobbed," he said. "It is horrifying. There is debris falling from windows. . . People on the street are gesturing, crying, in shock."
Some time later, the two buildings collapsed, first one, then the other. "The funny thing is, from a mile away on West Broadway, there was no sound. There was no sound when these buildings went down," Nelson said.
http://www.esubjects.com/curric/general/english_two/unit_two/pdf/ItWasAwful_HardNews.pdf

CHIEF OF THE DEPARTMENT DANIEL NIGRO (FDNY)

At some point after our arrival and after we had moved to the west side of West Street, I heard a loud roar of a jet, looked up and saw the second plane impact the south tower. At that point it was clear to me it was a terrorist attack. Earlier I didn't know what it was. I assumed it was an accident.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110154.PDF

FIREFIGHTER ROBERT NORRIS

We all got out of the rig, and we were standing there. We watched another plane come in. I felt the plane was coming underneath the pillar of smoke that was coming out of the first tower, but obviously it veered into the tower, and it took another hit.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110396.PDF

BATTALION CHIEF BRIAN O'FLAHERTY (FDNY)

Just then out of the corner of my eye, I could see this plane. I just remember the dark. It was in the shadow. It looked low. I thought, "What the heck is the guy doing?" I watched it, watched him turn and crash right into the south tower. Right away I knew it was terrorism or terrorists. I didn't know what the first one was, but I knew what the second one was.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110431.PDF

Scott Pasquini

Scott Pasquini had by now walked down toward Battery Park, along the river, and was standing in a crowd of people looking up at the North Tower when he heard a sound overhead and watched the second plane hit the other tower.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A38407-2001Sep15

Mike Penzer

About 9:03 a.m., as I was still looking north toward the Trade Center, I heard the very loud sound of a jet passenger plane flying very low behind me. I spun around and saw the plane directly above the Statue of Liberty and about to fly over our heads. Then, the plane avoided a high-rise just north of us and flew into the south side of the South Tower at about the 70th floor level. The huge plane disappeared into the even larger building, and a huge ball of flame and smoke erupted.
http://www.nabe.com/am2001/penzer.html

Dominic Perella

Dominic Perella had just gotten home to Brooklyn after working the overnight shift at the Associated Press. He was getting ready for bed when his roommate shouted into his room, saying Perella must not have known what happened when he left work.
"We went onto the roof, which has a Manhattan view," Perella said. "We saw the second plane approach. I thought it was a rescue plane or something, and then it disappeared from sight."
http://www.cdalumni.org/news/vii1/November 2001/nyc-attacks.html

PARAMEDIC JOEL PIERCE

...I watched eventually the second plane, I saw it. It looked like it was circling around south, then came back north, striking the south side of Tower No. 2.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110485.PDF

Stanley Praimnath
As Praimnath enters his office, his phone is ringing. A friend from Chicago asks Praimnath if he heard about the north tower being hit. He assures her all is fine.
But all is not fine. It is 9:03 a.m. and United Airlines Flight 175 is staring him in the face.
"Suddenly I see this big gray airplane with red letters on the wing and tail filling my window," Praimnath says. "It’s coming right at me."
Praimnath drops the phone and tucks under his desk in a fetal position as the plane obliterates the wall. The impact is a prolonged, gut-wrenching screech, a hideous, metallic roar. "It sounded like a huge steel cage being ripped apart," Praimnath recalls...
http://stanleypraimnath.com/1.htm

David Reck

David Reck was handing out literature for a candidate for public advocate a few blocks away when he saw a jet come in "very low, and then it made a slight twist and dove into the building."
http://www.gallupindependent.com/1999-2001/9-11-01.html

Andrea Refol

It was our 4-year-old Jordan's first day of pre-kindergarten. We left our house at 8:22 a.m.; I was on my way to a doctor's appointment, the radio was on, and we heard the news report. I had my first contraction. We were driving down Sackett Street in Brooklyn, and we watched the second plane make contact. My first thought was, Oh, my God, my appointment -- I'm supposed to have a baby!
http://nymag.com/news/articles/wtc/6months/testimonials/2.htm

Luigi Ribaudo

About 18 minutes later, Luigi Ribaudo -- who works nearby, in Tribeca -- heard a twin-engine plane making what he said was a strange noise. He looked up; he saw a plane that was "too low."
"It was going to hit something and it hit and exploded inside," he said.
http://www.esubjects.com/curric/general/english_two/unit_two/pdf/ItWasAwful_HardNews.pdf

EMT Mercedes Rivera
"As I passed by St. Vincent's Hospital below 14th Street, Paul said, 'Wow. Look at that plane. It's pretty close.' I said, 'Jeez, you're right. Look at the size of that plane.' We watched that plane get closer; it flew over us, it went over the Hudson River, then we saw it make a tilt and go right into the South Tower. It was like science fiction.
Then we saw the explosion...
Women at Ground Zero, Susan Hagen and Mary Carouba

Police Officer J Rivero

At this time I heard a loud roar coming from the south I yelled 'Al look at this ****' the plane smashed into W.T.C. #2...
http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-police-reports01.pdf

Steven Schiraldi
Steven Schiraldi, a Wall Street financial manager, was reached by phone in New York moments after the second tower of the World Trade Center was hit by a plane.
"I saw the second plane fly right past my window," he said.
Then he cut the conversation short with the comment: "I have to go now. They told us to evacuate the building. There is complete chaos here."
Later he told Catholic News Service that after he saw the plane fly past his office window, he watched it crash into the trade center. "It disintegrated on impact. My heart was pounding. I've never been so scared in my life."
His office building is about a half mile from the World Trade Center, and once he was evacuated he couldn't breathe from all the soot outside. All around him people were "screaming, crying and praying," he said.
http://www.archden.org/dcr/archive/20010919/2001091906wn.htm

Keith Schwer
Exiting the hotel within minutes, Schwer emerged to the heart of a chaotic scene—and thankfully was not struck or injured by falling debris. But once he saw the tail of the plane jutting out from the burning building, he realized this was not an explosion or an earthquake; it was an attack—and one that wasn’t over yet.
"We walked toward the Hudson River, so I saw the second plane coming down the river. It was so strange—I saw the plane bank, then I heard it coming and I saw that it was headed for the South Tower. I saw it go into the building."
http://system.nevada.edu/News/Publicatio/Regents--R/2001/rr_oct01.pdf

Ken Siebert
Ken Siebert, who works at 195 Broadway, also not far from the World Trade Center, said he had come out of the Church Street subway station as the second plane approached the center.
"I saw the plane bank and turn," Mr. Siebert said. "He turned, definitely turned, and banked it in there."
To Mr. Siebert, such movements indicated to him that terrorists were piloting the aircraft.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2001/09/12/myork_ed3_.php

Mitchell Simmons

Mitchell Simmons was in his lower-midtown Manhattan office Tuesday morning when a co-worker said, "You should see this, a plane just flew into the World Trade Center." Simmons, spokesman for e-mail list company 24/7 Media, joined staffers in CEO Dave Moore's 28th floor office, which had a clear view of the Trade Center.
"At that point, we thought it was an accident," Simmons said. "There were no news accounts yet."
Simmons added, "As we watched the building burn, we saw the second plane come around. It was very surreal because it felt like a movie, but it was reality."
As they watched the plane slam into the second tower, co-workers cried out in horror. "We knew then they were very deliberate attacks."
http://directmag.com/news/marketing_marketers_eyewitness_history

EMS CAPTAIN MARK STONE
We got in the truck, listening to reports coming in on Citywide and we ended up taking the Battery Park Tunnel underneath to come up on the West Street side of the incident. We came up right out of the tunnel. I was looking up to see if I could do a little more initial size up. That is when I saw the second plane hit the building. I just watched it coming in.
I see that the plane hit and I'm really thinking for the safety of the members that we got operating already ...
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110076.PDF

FIREFIGHTER JOSEPH SULLIVAN

Okay. We responded from quarters. The ticket came in at 8:54. We were going on the first alarm to the staging area by the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel. En route to the staging area, we were going down Columbia Street, saw the second plane strike the building and we went from being a, quote, good job or a rough job, or we were going to earn our money today.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110286.PDF

Maciej Swulinski

At this moment hearing a coming sound I raised my head. No! This is not happening. A big passenger jet was right above me. It was a blink of an eye. A fraction of second later the airplane disappeared inside WTC tower. I was standing at the base of the building that was the target of terrorist attack. There was no place take the cover. It was to late to run away. All I could do was just to cover my head with my bare hands and wait for the miracle. Parts of the building and from the airplane were falling on the street around me.
http://www.swulinski.com/9-11/My911.html

Joe Trachtenberg

Witness Joe Trachtenberg saw both attacks from a high-rise block on the other side of Manhattan. He said: "The first tower was smoking hard. Then there was another plane, and before we knew, it went kamikaze and flew straight into the other tower.
"There was a mass explosion, and windows flying. It was horrible."
Daily Star, September 12, 2001

Denise Weiss (audio interview)

Denise Weiss was at her school -- located near the World Trade Center -- when suddenly the students were asked to evacuate. She saw the north tower in flames and an airliner slam into the south tower.
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/afc911bib:@field(DOCID+@lit(afc911000117))

Tom Weber

So I'm sitting there, on the 39th floor, and we're used to plane traffic, the sounds of planes are very familiar, but I heard a much louder sound, a sound closer in proximity than I've ever heard before which caused me to look up in the direction of that sound. I saw a commercial airliner which appeared to be banking to the east just go what appeared to be right through the WTC causing an explosion on one end and an explosion on the other end...
...came back to the window and I saw the second plane, and I never gave the second plane any credibility because there couldn't be another plane flying into the World Trade Center because that's impossible, almost impossible as the first one. And it was flying south. It wasn't as direct a hit as the first plane was. It kind of hit like the edge of the building, but the explosion was way worse than the first one. The first explosion wasn't...as a matther of fact, the first plane didn't have as big an explosion as the second. The second hit and our building shook.
http://www.courttv.com/talk/chat_transcripts/2001/0911eyewitnesses.html

Peter YBarra

"It was the worst thing I've ever seen in my entire life, said Peter Ybarra, a 40-year-old civil servant who saw the second plane crash into the World Trade Center. "Those movies about Pearl Harbor, they were never real to me. I wish God had taken away my eyesight before this happened.
http://www.sfgate.com/today/0912_chron_nyscene.shtml

Tonya Young

...suddenly I heard an airplane.
I turned and saw a plane coming at an angle from the direction of the Statue of Liberty. It was low and a little to the right of where I was standing, but almost directly overhead. I followed it until I saw it go into the second tower.
September 11: An Oral History, Dean E. Murphy

FIREFIGHTER STEPHEN ZASA

Upon that time I heard a plane roar. I had my window down and on my side we saw a plane flying very low come right across us and with a loud, you know, the engines revved up, and I had mentioned to him, I had no idea that it was heading towards that way, and I just said like where is this guy going, you know, he was extremely low, not realizing it was another plane heading towards the World Trade, and we saw it struck the building, we saw a big mushroom of flame, of fire coming up, and it was like disbelief, and he had gotten on the radio and notified the dispatcher another plane had struck the World Trade Center.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110417.PDF

Rick Zottola

We were just about two minutes away from [the] South Tower and about to go up to our office when we heard this roar overhead; we looked up and there it was, flying low over the city.
The second plane impacted the South Tower while we watched and the explosion spat fire out into the air. We watched the whole thing, completely dumbfounded.
Tower Stories: An Oral History Of 9/11, Damon DiMarco

Unnamed SeaStreak captain

SeaStreak, another high-speed ferry operator between the Atlantic Highlands and Manhattan, also found its vessels located close by to provide almost immediate evacuation assistance. By 0840, the catamaran ferry SeaStreak New York had almost completed its run to New York and was heading up the East River. As it passed Pier 16 on the East River, the captain radioed the home office, "that he saw a plane hit the WTC. He continued up to East 34th Street, did the drop off and pick up, and while on the way back, again near Pier 16, he saw the second plane hit the other tower," said Joanne Conroy, marketing director of SeaStreak.
http://www.fireboat.org/press/prof_mariner_jan02_1.asp

Unnamed

Early this morning around 9 am, I heard the sound of a low flying airplane. It was so loud my immediate thought was that it was a terrorist or a plane that would land on our rooftop in Greenwich Village. Seconds later I knew the horrible truth...
http://www.readio.com/archives/0109/11WTC/nyclickers.html

Unnamed

As I'm flying closer, almost opposite the WTC, right next to the Harborside Center in Jersey City, I see this airliner coming down in a steep bank, my first thought was, WTF is this guy doing!??? Why is he diving so steep to take a look at the fire! And it's an airliner! (looked like a 737 to me at the time). I muttered something along the lines "Jeez, this guy is gonna get so fired by his airline, it's not even funny!" The next moment.... it hits the building.... I felt like I was inside a cartoon or a movie, maybe that "Independence Day" flick, at the moment I thought I was seeing things, like this can't be, this isn't real... But I had my camera in hand and snapped virtually a split second later after the impact, I was simply too awestruck when I saw the plane, so it didn't click in me to actually shoot the thing (but if I had a Stinger SAM with me, damn, I wish I did and I would).
http://www.maxho.com/wtc
 
I couldn't be bothered to go back through 34 pages, so; what caused the damage (not collapse, mind you) to the towers?
 
Matt,

I think the issues you raise above were adequately addressed way back on pg 3, including a posting on that B-52 crash.

No they weren't. You basically stated that the walls of the WTC should have absorbed all of the kinetic energy of the airplane, causing the fireball to remain completely external and not travel one bit inside the building. As was explained to you repeatedly, no wall of any building will instantaneously stop a fully loaded aircraft at speed. It's impossible, a material that strong does not exist. Yes, the walls of the tower would have absorbed a good deal of the plane's kinetic energy and most definitely would rip it apart. It would not absorb all of it, hence why the plane went through the wall like it was made of paper. The fuel was still moving forward when it ignited, hence the path of the explosion.

It's simple, and your argument to the contrary is completely ludicrous and defies the laws of physics.
 
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It is to be hoped that some of the thread's "fallacy' vigilantes will send a PM to TitanicExplorer pointing out the fallacies in the above quoted post.

I think I can be of assistance here in providing a sampling of the data from which reliable and verifiable NYC witnesses can be found.

As posters know, I have always acknowledged there are witnesses who say they saw and heard a plane. I know of about 20 who I consider reliable.

The problem is, there are more reliable and verifiable witnesses who say they saw and hear an explosion in a context where, had they seen and heard a plane, it is more likely they would have said so, rather than that they had observed an explosion.

Here is a complilation of reliable evidence, containing both NO PLANE and PLANE SPOTTER evidence and information:

For posters who are fans of JREF, you have no better or faster alternative other than that of reviewing the 60+ pages of the two Dick Oliver threads found at:
All of the above can be used to help sort out the strengths and the weaknesses of both NO PLANE and PLANE SPOTTER claims.


The fact that there were scores of people who were THERE on 9/11 and saw and heard both planes hit the towers pretty much deflates the no-planer assertion that no planes hit the towers. You are choosing not to believe their accounts.
Plus there is the little detail of airplane wreckage photographed at street level an on nearby rooftops that no-planers like to ignore.....oh wait, the no-planers assert that wreckage was 'planted', or the photos thereof are fakes. Silly me.
 
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Caution: Post # 1368 contains NO PLANE witness accounts

Hey Lurkers,

Carlitos has assembled a compilation of witnesses that is a bit misleading. Some of those he has posted, such as Evan Fairbanks, are NO PLANE witnesses, based on what they have said.

While I haven't reviewed all of the statements, there are some that are quite familiar. I have previously mentioned all those that come from the Task Force Witness Compilation as that is the best source of both PLANE and NO PLANE witnesses.

Carlitos' compilation runs into problems in just the first two witness postings, alone:

1--Carlitos' first source contains a LOC link that might not be working.

Note to Carlitos, can you repair that link, please.

2--Carlitos, second link contains the statements of more than just Sgt. 1st Class Stephen Atha, that same link contains the witness statement of another First Sargeant who is an excellent NO PLANE witness:

Sgt. 1st Class Joseph Wall

"Wall and others with him were staying in the Marriott Hotel located in the World Trade Center tower. He had already started his day's work in a windowless room in World Trade Center 7 when he mistook the noise of the first plane crashing for the air conditioning system kicking on. Once he heard the building was being evacuated, he, along with his coworkers, headed for the stairwell and started the five-minute journey from the ninth floor to the lobby. First from the lobby then the loading dock where he and others were allowed to exit the building, he saw an awful spectacle: a fireball from the plane crashing into Tower Two, debris falling from the sky, people falling and jumping from the towers. "I couldn't believe what I was seeing," he said. "I couldn't move and even if I could, there was nowhere for me to go. The crowd had stopped, mostly to see the towers, and was frozen just like I was."

http://www.dcmilitary.com/dcmilitary_archives/stories/101801/11338-1.shtml

The above statement is a devastating NO PLANE statement as to both the North Tower and the South Tower.

Those who are prone to rationalization might have difficulty reading the statement accurately, but, I do feel confident that posters have made some progress in overcoming the denial stage and might therefore grasp the signficance of what Sgt. Wall has to say.

I am not sure I would accept the source of the above statement, but that goes for both Wall and Atha. Also, the Wall statement has other problems as well in that it is apparent someone is putting words into his mouth. Posters do see that, right?

good luck
 
Matt,

I think the issues you raise above were adequately addressed way back on pg 3, including a posting on that B-52 crash.

See:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5940901&postcount=91

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5940920&postcount=92

Planes explode and degrade on impact. That was not seen in the videos to have happened at the South Tower.

Because a 767 ripping through a steel structure at high speed will behave exactly as a stalling B-52 does when it crashes to the ground. I mean after all, a solid object like a building is the same as a planet, right?
 
Sgt. 1st Class Joseph Wall

"Wall and others with him were staying in the Marriott Hotel located in the World Trade Center tower. He had already started his day's work in a windowless room in World Trade Center 7 when he mistook the noise of the first plane crashing for the air conditioning system kicking on. Once he heard the building was being evacuated, he, along with his coworkers, headed for the stairwell and started the five-minute journey from the ninth floor to the lobby. First from the lobby then the loading dock where he and others were allowed to exit the building, he saw an awful spectacle: a fireball from the plane crashing into Tower Two, debris falling from the sky, people falling and jumping from the towers. "I couldn't believe what I was seeing," he said. "I couldn't move and even if I could, there was nowhere for me to go. The crowd had stopped, mostly to see the towers, and was frozen just like I was."

http://www.dcmilitary.com/dcmilitary_archives/stories/101801/11338-1.shtml

The above statement is a devastating NO PLANE statement as to both the North Tower and the South Tower.

So because someone in a windowless room didn't see a plane, there wasn't one? This lunacy is getting ridiculous.
 
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The fact that there were scores of people who were THERE on 9/11 and saw and heard both planes hit the towers pretty much deflates the no-planer assertion that no planes hit the towers. You are choosing not to believe their accounts.
Plus there is the little detail of airplane wreckage photographed at street level an on nearby rooftops that no-planers like to ignore.....oh wait, the no-planers assert that wreckage was 'planted', or the photos thereof are fakes. Silly me.

You are not up to speed. The fact is that in so far as numbers of witnesses are concerned, there are more reliable NO PLANE witnesses than there are who stand for the PLANE SPOTTER claim. Just sit tight, as it were. You may have a chance to see how the witnesses stack up against one another now that Carlitos has provided some semblance of at least some PLANE SPOTTER witness claims. Something that PLANE SPOTTER proponents had not earlier done to any meaningful degree.

As to the plane parts myth, let me repeat again:

Not one part, piece, aspect or element of a jetliner, let alone a Boeing 767 and still less the Boeing 767s said to have crashed was positively identifed by any competent authority. You appear to know that as your quoted claim only asserts the existence of photographs of (alleged) plane parts.

In fact, the NTSB was pushed aside and not even allowed to investigate the alleged crashes. True, the debunkers like to rationalize both the nonexistent of positively identified parts and the lack of an NTSB investigation, claiming that since it was criminal, the NTSB was not allowed to investigate. However, that is nothing but rationalization. The NTSB often investigates crime related plane crashes.

Further, the fact remains, the NTSB is the agency within the US government that has the competence and the experience in plane crash investigation.

There was no rational reason to exclude the NTSB. And, the lack of positively identified plane parts basically negates the debunker ability to rely on plane parts as evidence. It is nonexistent.

I have elsewhere posted a photo essay in this forum showing how the so-called "engine" was planted at Church and Murray and otherwise fabricated. I have also posted proof that NIST, in its investigation, did not claim plane parts were found. I quoted the elements of the NIST report that refers to "postulated" plane parts.

See the Dick Oliver threads.
 
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You are not up to speed. The fact is that in so far as numbers of witnesses are concerned, there are more reliable NO PLANE witnesses than there are who stand for the PLANE SPOTTER claim. Just sit tight, as it were. You may have a chance to see how the witnesses stack up against one another now that Carlitos has provided some semblance of at least some PLANE SPOTTER witness claims. Something that PLANE SPOTTER proponents had not earlier done to any meaningful degree.

As to the plane parts myth, let me repeat again:

Not one part, piece, aspect or element of a jetliner, let alone a Boeing 767 and still less the Boeing 767s said to have crashed was positively identifed by any competent authority. You appear to know that as your quoted claim only asserts the existence of photographs of (alleged) plane parts.

In fact, the NTSB was pushed aside and not even allowed to investigate the alleged crashes. True, the debunkers like to rationalize both the nonexistent of positively identified parts and the lack of an NTSB investigation, claiming that since it was criminal, the NTSB was not allowed to investigate. However, that is nothing but rationalization. The NTSB often investigates crime related plane crashes.

Further, the fact remains, the NTSB is the agency within the US government that has the competence and the experience in plane crash investigation.

There was no rational reason to exclude the NTSB. And, the lack of positively identified plane parts basically negates the debunker ability to rely on plane parts as evidence. It is nonexistent.

I have elsewhere posted a photo essay in this forum showing how the so-called "engine" was planted at Church and Murray and otherwise fabricated. I have also posted proof that NIST, in its investigation, did not claim plane parts were found. I quoted the elements of the NIST report that refers to "postulated" plane parts.

See the Dick Oliver threads.

The FBI took the leading role in the investigation and relied on technical assistance from the NTSB. You shouldn't resort to lying to further your halluncination, that's just bad form.
 
As to the plane parts myth, let me repeat again:

Not one part, piece, aspect or element of a jetliner, let alone a Boeing 767 and still less the Boeing 767s said to have crashed was positively identifed by any competent authority. You appear to know that as your quoted claim only asserts the existence of photographs of (alleged) plane parts.
Well there was...

911-flight175windows-l.jpg

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/debunking-911-myths-planes
Looks like a plane part to me.

Besides, a plane hitting a building in excess of 500 miles an hour and exploding doesn't tend to leave giant, easy to pick up pieces.

Oh right, it was 'planted.' Silly me. :rolleyes:
 
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