2nd Amendment for the U.K. -- long overdue

You know, I don't think many Americans truly understand the difference in attitude towards guns here.

Suppose gun laws were abolished tomorrow in the UK. Many Americans seem to think that Brits would run out and buy guns for home defence, and the situation here would be much as it is there. In fact, this simply wouldn't happen. Most British people don't want guns, they don't LIKE guns. If guns were legal, most people wouldn't have them anyway. (emphasis added)

For much of my early life the gun laws were a lot more lax than they are now. Nevertheless, I have never once met a person who owned a gun. If I were a career criminal who specialised in burglary back then, it would never even have occurred to me that a homeowner would have a gun, or that they'd threaten me with it if they did. (emphasis added)

Similarly if we adopted US style gun laws tomorrow, I'd imagine very few of what we might term "law abiding citizens" would go out and get one for home defence. The idea simply wouldn't occur to most people.

You do (unfortunately) see this type of mindset here in the US, predominately in large urban areas where a pacifist mentality abounds.

Forgive me as the image of merry old England includes scenes from Kubrick's, A Clockwork Orange so how about a little "in & out" love?
 
I know of at least one other person who went on a killing spree in a school. I can't find it on Google because it isn't often referenced. The word "Dunblane" will take a long time to lose its connotations, but I can't remember where this other incident occurred.

The reason? He didn't succeed in killing anyone, although there were injuries and the teacher scooped an award for bravery. The thing is, he didn't have a gun. He went in with a machete. No deaths.

Not technically a killing spree, then?
 
You do (unfortunately) see this type of mindset here in the US, predominately in large urban areas where a pacifist mentality abounds.

Forgive me as the image of merry old England includes scenes from Kubrick's, A Clockwork Orange so how about a little "in & out" love?

Do you have any facts or arguments to suggest why this attitude is misplaced in the UK?
 
Also, with the recent terrorist attacks in the UK would a law-abiding subject consider the means for self-defense or simply embrace the wrath of a lunatic as another benefit of living in the realm?

Mate, when they attacked Glasgow Airport we kicked the proverbial out of them - unarmed.

Levity aside, howoever, have you absolutely no idea about the security issues in the UK arising from 30 years of Reublican terrorism? Really, mate, you're all new to it.
 
Do you have any facts or arguments to suggest why this attitude is misplaced in the UK?

Maybe you should consider who came to your aid (aka; covered your arse) in WWI & WWII both economically and militarily.

Chamberlin's piece of paper Hitler gave him worked like a charm didn't it?

Next time, don't make yourselves look like such an easy (victim profile) target for such "criminals".
 
Mate, when they attacked Glasgow Airport we kicked the proverbial out of them - unarmed.

Levity aside, howoever, have you absolutely no idea about the security issues in the UK arising from 30 years of Reublican terrorism? Really, mate, you're all new to it.

Kudos to you boys for TCOB.

Yes, I reckon with all the security systems in place it'd be hard to scratch one's hiney w/o several agencies taking notice.
 
Maybe you should consider who came to your aid (aka; covered your arse) in WWI & WWII both economically

Yes, you did.
and militarily.

No. No you didn't. We stopped ourselves being invaded thank you very much (with a lot of help from the Poles, Norwegians and Free French) and the Russian offensive after Stalingrad would have easily mopped up the Germans.

Italy fell due to British pressure in North Africa.

So no, no matter what Hollywood might say, you did NOT save us in either World War. You arrived far too late to make much of a difference in WWI and you were unnecessary but helpful in WWII.


Chamberlin's piece of paper Hitler gave him worked like a charm didn't it?
Chamberlin was an idiot, therefore Britain would have fallen in days? No. Just no.

Next time, don't make yourselves look like such an easy (victim profile) target for such "criminals".

I assume you have either forgotten or did not know that the British pressured the hell out of the US into joining the war by displaying nationwide courage and steadfast determination not to ever give up? That we promised to fight them to the last man? That we, with our allies, held them off from the shores of Britain long enough that Hitler gave up on attacking us?
 
Seem's Telaynay's G'son suffers from a fairly common American ill...they can't seem to understand that the whole rest of the world does not look at the US in awe and wonder at how great it is, and we do not want to be just like it.

I think the US deserves some patience from older nations tbh.

They're just like we (Britain and other colonising nations) were about 200 years ago; a state in it's teenage years, striding about the world telling everyone what to do and how to do it, and getting upset that we all just don't agree that it's right, not to mention very clever and physically attractive to boot.

Remember what it was like to be 17 and know you knew everything, and be jolly passionate about making sure everyone heard it? That's how Britain felt 200 years ago, and it's how America feels now.

Then you get a bit older and start to realise that things aren't quite so cut and dried as you thought they were. You stop worrying about getting drunk and getting laid and having fun and running everyone elses house for them, and concentrate your efforts on keeping your own affairs in order, getting to work on time, getting the mortgage paid and feeding your kids. That's how the colonising nations feel now.

Except Britain. Britain is having a mid-life crisis and has taken to going out drinking and looking at girls and getting into fights with America. It doesn't really want to be like America, but it remembers when it was and gets a bit wistful. It tries to stop America making too much of a fool of itself but ends up looking just as silly. When it gets home at night, with a torn shirt and all it's money spent on Tequila and strippers, Britain looks at itself in the mirror and thinks; 'What the hell are you doing, you silly old sod?' and promises not to do it again. So Britain spends the week at work, while America lies around in bed watching porn, pays it's mortgage and feeds it's kids, but come friday night, here's America on the phone again, wanting Britain to come to the opening of the Eye Rack Nightclub...and Britain thinks; 'Why not?'
 
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I do not keep up with your country's crime stats so whether they are starting to escalate is probably something you might wish to investigate.

Many the dam break started out as a small crack.

Also, with the recent terrorist attacks in the UK would a law-abiding subject consider the means for self-defense or simply embrace the wrath of a lunatic as another benefit of living in the realm?


Well, it's fairly clear you're pontificating on something you know nothing about. What makes you think crime statistics in Britain aren't being collected and analysed on a regular basis?

The shooting sprees are easy enough to enumerate.

  • Michael Ryan, Hungerford, 1987
  • Thomas Hamilton, Dunblane, 1996
  • Derrick Bird, Whitecastle, 2010
Make of that what you like.

There is simply no demand or wish or pressure from the population in general to be allowed to own and carry guns. The overgrown child with his overgrown and functional toy guns is a rare phenomenon in Britain. As someone pointed out previously, the last time gun legislation was significantly tightened up, only a very small percentage of the population was affected - the vast majority didn't have the things anyway.

In fact, if you look at the profiles of the three men named above, you'll find that they fit the category of "gun nut". They all had legal weapons, and they behaved in a way more reminiscent of the US gun culture than the British norm. Face it, your puerile love affair with firearms is the breeding ground for these incidents, not the cure.

And as someone else pointed out, the Glasgow Airport bombers were set upon by the unarmed bystanders and nobody has been complaining that they didn't have a six-shooter in their sock. England and Ireland have had more experience of actual terrorist incidents than you've had hot dinners. It's actually got much, much safer in recent years, since the Northern Ireland peace process has been in place. In the 1970s I remember having my bag searched every time I went to the theatre in London, and that hasn't happened for years now.

You Yanks have absolutely no clue. We went through many years of very real and very serious threats of terrorism. Google Warrington, and Guildford, and Canary Wharf, and Brighton, and a lot more and that's without even mentioning the incidents in Ireland itself. And you know what? The main funding for all this was coming from America, smiled on and condoned by high US officials, who thought that their "Irish roots" entitled them to get all romantic about the "freedom struggle" and send lots of money to the IRA to buy Semtex from Gadaffi to blow up English children on the streets of Warrington.

You have no idea what it was like. You wouldn't listen to any pleas to close down Noraid and cut off the funding to the terrorists. That's right - in the late 20th century, Britain was under massive terrorist attack, funded from the USA.

And nobody wants to go around with a gun in their sock.

Then hey, you guys finally cop a hit, and you seem to think this has never happened to anyone else in the history of the world. You start pissing your pants in fear and advocating eveybody and their maiden aunt should be armed to the teeth. In the country that saw through the IRA years.

You really ought to figure out what you're talking about before you start typing.

Rolfe.
 
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Then hey, you guys finally cop a hit, and you seem to think this has never happened to anyone else in the history of the world. You start pissing your pants in fear and advocating eveybody and their maiden aunt should be armed to the teeth. In the country that saw through the IRA years.

I remember, a few years before the US finally discovered it could be got at, overhearing an American couple (tourists natch) discussing the signs all over the Underground telling people to watch out for unattended bags and packages:

''The English are so considerate, ain't they honey? They remind people to watch out for lost property...''
 
To be honest, when I first visited then moved to England in the early 1980s, I thought the bag searches at the opera were for tape recorders (yes I had a guilty conscience....) This never happened in Scotland, because the IRA didn't target Scotland. I got used to it after a bit, but Canary Wharf was close enough to be worrying.

Let's face it, if you can get blown up in a pub in Guildford, nowhere's safe. This went on for decades. The last thing we need is a lecture from clueless, spineless Yanks who didn't even realise they were paying for the bombs.

Rolfe.
 
You Yanks have absolutely no clue. We went through many years of very real and very serious threats of terrorism. Google Warrington, and Guildford, and Canary Wharf, and Brighton, and a lot more and that's without even mentioning the incidents in Ireland itself. And you know what? The main funding for all this was coming from America, smiled on and condoned by high US officials, who thought that their "Irish roots" entitled them to get all romantic about the "freedom struggle" and send lots of money to the IRA to buy Semtex from Gadaffi to blow up English children on the streets of Warrington.

You have no idea what it was like. You wouldn't listen to any pleas to close down Noraid and cut off the funding to the terrorists. That's right - in the late 20th century, Britain was under massive terrorist attack, funded from the USA.

And nobody wants to go around with a gun in their sock.

Then hey, you guys finally cop a hit, and you seem to think this has never happened to anyone else in the history of the world. You start pissing your pants in fear and advocating eveybody and their maiden aunt should be armed to the teeth. In the country that saw through the IRA years.

You really ought to figure out what you're talking about before you start typing.

Rolfe.
I don't know just how germane to your argument about guns this is, but it's something that hacks me off too. The fact that American citizens and some Government officials sponsored terrorism against their closest allies and yet now have the gall to act offended when people don't clamp down on "terror" like it was hiding under everyone's bed is a rather glaring and uncomfortable piece of hypocrisy.
 
Maybe you should consider who came to your aid (aka; covered your arse) in WWI & WWII both economically and militarily.

Chamberlin's piece of paper Hitler gave him worked like a charm didn't it?

Next time, don't make yourselves look like such an easy (victim profile) target for such "criminals".

Others have already taken apart the factual errors, but could you explain why, even if you were correct, this has anything to do with gun control in the UK? What relevance was your mention of airports and schools?
 
...snip...

Also, with the recent terrorist attacks in the UK would a law-abiding subject consider the means for self-defense or simply embrace the wrath of a lunatic as another benefit of living in the realm?

Why should the recent huge reduction in terrorist attacks make us more likely to want to own handguns?
 
Maybe you should consider who came to your aid (aka; covered your arse) in WWI & WWII both economically and militarily.

Chamberlin's piece of paper Hitler gave him worked like a charm didn't it?

Next time, don't make yourselves look like such an easy (victim profile) target for such "criminals".


When did the USA go to War in WWII?
 
Maybe you should consider who came to your aid (aka; covered your arse) in WWI & WWII both economically and militarily.

Chamberlin's piece of paper Hitler gave him worked like a charm didn't it?

Next time, don't make yourselves look like such an easy (victim profile) target for such "criminals".

Oh god, do you actually believe that?

Bloody hell, Australia and New Zealand had a bigger effect on the outcome of the Great War than the USA.

I seem to recall a certain soviet union doing most of the ass kicking in WW2 as well.
 
Oh god, do you actually believe that?

Bloody hell, Australia and New Zealand had a bigger effect on the outcome of the Great War than the USA.

I seem to recall a certain soviet union doing most of the ass kicking in WW2 as well.

The US sacrifices and Marshall plan are greatly appreciated, no need to downplay them.
However, I don't like the very simplified narrative that many Americans have in their heads about WWII.

Also, I never miss an opportunity to point out that it was the Russians that did the heavy lifting and the heavy bleeding. It's just weird that in the Western mind the Eastern front was some kind of sideshow.
 
Right so now we've corrected some factual errors about WWII and terrorism in the UK can we get back to why the UK would want a "2nd Amendment" like the USA has and what benefit we would gain from having it?
 

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