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Ed All 43 videos "Second Hit"" [Explosion]at WTC 2: Plane or No Plane?

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The only thing you can draw from that is that those specific witnesses did not see or hear the plane.

That is a selective interpretation. At a minimum, you must apply the same limitation to those who claim to have SPOTTED A PLANE. Witnesses are witnesses, neither more nor less. There are more who claim to have seen or heard an explosion than any other type of witness. Further, those reports are noteworthy for being contained in sources, business records, and thus considered reliable for purposes of evidence.

I am not saying there are no witnesses who said they saw and heard a jetliner; I am only saying the ones that are reliable are few in number; i.e., fewer than 20.

This is hardly surprising, as NYC is a big place with many tall buildings that would obstruct line of sight. Also, at street level, there is a lot of noise that might drown out the sound of an aircraft.

You are entitled to your speculation. But, your speculation is not proof of a darn thing.

This simply means that people heard an explosion. I don't doubt that they would define it as such, since many loud, indistinct sounds are often reported as explosions, i.e. gunfire.

The above is both speculative and a rationalization. One can take witnesses at their word and draw reasonable inferences. The fact is that of those who reported the incident in its intial aftermath, almost all of them reported "an explosion" and did not report "a plane crash." Ergo, the proper and logical inference to draw is that an explosion occurred and a plane crash did not.

I don't believe it, I accept it because that is where the evidence points. Same way that I accept gravity and evolution.

A return to obstinance. You have just articulated speculative rationalizations, as have been quoted and quoted fully. You cannot jumpt to the point you have based on what preceded it. Not in logic or in effective dialogue, anyway.

So what? Is that necessary if the aircraft took off and never landed? Is that ever a technique used to identify an aircraft?

Yes, that is how aircraft are positively, rather than speculatively identified.

I don't think it much matters, as seen above.

Minimization of the significance of a claim, by way of an a priori declaration does not refute the claim.

The bolded sentence sounds like weasel words to me. I am unsure what exactly you mean by it.

Well, if you're asking for clarification, it simply means the military exercises were a cover for the deception, consisting in false information inputs, like radar blips, teevee images and sound bites, pyrotechnical displays to emulate a plane crash, followed by annihilation of the towers, all as a reputed terrorist attack, but what was, in fact, an utterly astonishing, in its brutality, false flag operation. Who would do such a thing? I do not know. How many people had to be fully in on it, so to speak? Fewer than a handful, ultimately. Once again, I do not know who they are and am not inclined to speculate.

What do you mean by viable?

The radar claims are sourced to the recollection of individual personnel, given in statements that confirm that the claims are based on what people recall. As such, the claims are not viable as evidence. These claims are all sourced in this thread in earlier posts.

As a reference point, you can take a look at the inconclusive, speculative nature of the FAA report itself:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB165/faa7.pdf

what would be convincing? Describe what you would expect to see and hear if actual aircraft struck the buildings. If you don't address any of the rest of this post, please at least anser this question.

First of all, this issue has already been addressed as a part of NIST's $16million investigation. They could only claim that hypothesis was "partially validated" by observation; meaning what the videos show.

This is a thread about the ALL43 videos. Look at them. I have. I have reported, on a step by step, page by page basis what I see in them. This is one reason why your posts appear to me to be obstinate. It is not as if I have been coy or obtuse or less than forthcoming. On each and every page, I post a link to a specific video segment and describe why I think that video falsifies the claim a Boeing 767 is involved. In the first 20 or so pages of this thread, I posted actual still images, but that practice was proscribed and so now all I can do is post links.

Graphically and by way of sound, the ALL43 video segments, taken together or reviewed separately falsify the claim that what is depicted is a jetliner crash. For the most part, it can be said, there is no sound of a jetliner and the crash shows a jetliner doing what no jetliner could do if it crashed into a steel reinforced building and where the explosion is in the wrong place and at the wrong time.

That is what each and every one of the ALL43 videos show, singly, in groups of 3 or 5 or 10 and in the aggregate.

You can confirm this by looking at the video. You can confirm NIST's partial validation claim by looking at NCSTAR 1-2 searching the words partial validation."

See: http://wtc.nist.gov/NCSTAR1/NCSTAR1-2index.htm

See NCSTR1-2Bchapter 1-8, pg. 72/290

With the recognition that the one official investigation into the dynamics of what happened as a frame of reference, you can then take an objective look for yourself and form your own conclusion. When you do that, you can assess the situation on what "you see" or upon what "you think you see" or upon "what you would like to see" among other possibilities.

The only person you have to be honest with is yourself.

They didn't have physical access to the towers at the time of the impact. Partial validation is all they could ever get.

That is a rationalization and an excuse. Having an excuse does not alter the fact that their finding was one of "partial invalidation."

Define what you think admissible means.

Your query is not to my likeing because it is too pedantic. You are not the teacher and I am not in your classroom. I do not play 20 question games and I do not go off on wild goose chases after data that anyone interested can find for themselves.

If you have a claim you want to make about admissibility, then make it and I will respond.

Again, I don't believe. I accept based on multiple, independent, and convergent lines of evidence. But since you keep bringing it up, allow me to ask: What piece of evidence or line of reasoning would it take for you to accept that planes struck the WTC towers 1 and 2?

Your a priori declaration is not supported by any actual reference to any actual evidence. :boggled:
 
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Your a priori declaration is not supported by any actual reference to any actual evidence. :boggled:

Unless this is some kind of code for, "I'll never accept ANY evidence because my mind is already made up, and I'll find a way to dismiss ANY evidence that I'm asked to accept anyway", this was not an answer to his question.
 
Equally important, among the PAPD reports, nearly all of those who called in to report an incident said they "saw or heard an explosion." That is a fact. That evidence is NOT in doubt. What is in doubt is what conclusion can be drawn from what people actually said they saw and heard?

The PAPD concluded that they had aircraft impacts in both towers. Funny how you always leave that out.
 
Jam,



Horsepucky.

Two cars collide at an intersection.

That is an a priori declaration inside of a hypothetical construct of your own creation.

There are 100 people on the streets nearby.

Once you have succeeded in creating your own hypthetical construct, you can give that construct such properties as pleases you.

10 people happened to be looking in the right direction. They all say slight variations of "the red sports car ran the red light".

If I were constructing the hypothetical you have constructed I would make it more interesting by saying that some said "the light was yellow."

Can you say why you made the hypothetical so easy? :boggled:

For one thing, in setting up your hypothetical that way you have darn sure constructed one that does not fit the particulars of the witnesses of 9/11. Those witnesses did not all say a jetliner hit the WTC, giving slight variations on that theme.

A lot of them said no such thing; and, in fact, only a very few of them said they saw a plane.

Once again, Lurkers, here we have use of an improper hypothetical construct by someone seeking desparately to justify the unjustifiable, namely, the common storyline of 9/11.

The other 90 people were reading, distracted, looking the other way, etc.

That is why it is important to pay close attention to what people say and to examine what they have said for accuracy of understanding. The 10 people who report seeing or hearing whatever they report seeing or hearing were also subject to some distraction, in all likelihood, right?

I am not here telling you how to construct your hypothetical, rather I am merely asking what state of attentiveness do you attribute to your 10 seers?

Only an idiot or a troll concludes that a sensible assessment of this situation is "the evidence is 90-10 that the car did NOT run the red light.

That is not what I conclude; and, you have no basis for making the claim that I have.

Utter bilge.

Were are those who rant and rave about "handwaving" when one needs them?

They were not empty planes that took off that morning. They were assemblies. Assemblies of 4 planes, and lots of passengers, crew & luggage.

33 people from flight 11 & 12 from flight 175 have been identified by DNA analysis.

http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/planes/evidence/dailynews_halfvictimsidd.html

You rely on a debunker website as your source. That is FUBAR. The above link is to an inadmissible as evidence newspaper article from a rag that is most noteworthy for headlines like "BLONDE SLAIN IN LOVE NEST" and such like. Newspaper articles are not evidence. Please grasp this fact.

Luggage has been ID'd. Airplane parts (that don't have S/N's) have been ID'd.

With respect to the first claim, you provide no proof; with respect to the second one, you confirm its falsity yourself and you agree with what I have already stated; namely, no S/N identification and therefore no proof.

The absence of mountains of evidence does nothing to negate the conclusions from molehills of other, existent evidence.

Maybe you know what on earth you are trying to declare. I do not.

In this particular case, absence of molehills of evidence does not negate the mountains of existent, conclusive evidence.

You have not shown mountains of evidence. You showed an article from the NYDailyNews.

It appears that Dr. Charles Hirsch, NYC's chief medical examiner (in 2002) disagrees with you.

As of 9/11/02:
Patrice O'Shaughnessy
NY Daily News Staff Writer
Sept 11, 2002
[same url reference as above]

Same response as above. You are relying on inadmissible hearsay.

___

Regarding your capricious qualifier:



Please provide "an official, admissible as evidence forensic report" that the earth is round.

Does the absence of such a report constitute a compelling argument that the earth is flat?


Tom

That analogy is not apt and is not worthy of further response.
 
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The PAPD concluded that they had aircraft impacts in both towers. Funny how you always leave that out.

That is not what they concluded. I quoted the exact summary of what the PAPD knew they had versus what was speculated about.
 
You have not shown mountains of evidence. You showed an article from the NYDailyNews.



Same response as above. You are relying on inadmissible hearsay.



That analogy is not apt and is not worthy of further response.

The coroner disagrees with you. This fact was reported in the Daily News. Your handwaving is meaningless.

A better question: What evidence would you accept regarding the DNA of the passengers of the two flights that hit the WTC?
 
Greetings Lurkers. Please post.

33
http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums...owblurryhelicopterNoseOut800.png?t=1277822684

OK posters and lurkers. Please take a look, if you would, at version # 33. One of the more interesting aspects of this one is that the shadow thingy looks more like a whirly craft than a jetliner and also hits at the wrong angle.

Further, among the more interesting aspects of this one is that it refutes those who claim a jet engine came out the north face. What this video shows at about the 8:06 mark is that the firecracker burnt out completely and the streams that some debunkers used to create all sorts of debris claims out of, complete with graphic diagrams, are FUBAR. The streams burn out in midair.
 
I have posted a video showing the 43 versions of the explosion at the South Tower. In not one of them is there a clear and unambiguous image of an actual Boeing 767. The very best of the images shown in the very best of the 43 videos is inconclusive at best.

For the most part, the images are not that of a plane; rather thay are a)shadowy; or, b)blurry; or, c)cloudy; or, d) not there at all. And that goes for all of them.

And this just shows the level of lunacy here ... Jammie seriously expects crystal clear hi-definition images of a random chaotic event filmed by random people on varying quality devices ... in slow motion preferably.

IMAX if poss ... :rolleyes:

Yes, because all random events need to be filmed exactly as they do in the movies for them to have any validity in Jammieworld.

Yup ... there is certainly a lack of ability to distinguish between blurry captured reality and the thoughful definition of movie scenes !!!
 
And this just shows the level of lunacy here ... Jammie seriously expects crystal clear hi-definition images of a random chaotic event filmed by random people on varying quality devices ... in slow motion preferably.

IMAX if poss ... :rolleyes:

In 2001 when carrying a video camera was rare.
 
The coroner disagrees with you. This fact was reported in the Daily News. Your handwaving is meaningless.

A better question: What evidence would you accept regarding the DNA of the passengers of the two flights that hit the WTC?

Separate and apart from your reliance on an unsupported assumption in the first of your two paragraphs, your second one is worthy of a response.

I require neither more nor less DNA evidence than would be required to competently make the claim that persons have been identified by DNA; namely, the DNA records.

I would also recognize that based on the sensitivity of records of that nature, it might not be possible to get them very easily. One might have to resort to an official FOIA request and one might have to go through a process to get them. Further, the records ultimately obtained might be heavily blacked-out to protect personal data.

FOIA requests have been made and some are still pending. No DNA records have ever been produced. But, more interesting than that, the denial of the FOIA requests are unclear as to whether they even acknowledge the existence of such records or the finding of responsive information containing DNA identification. This is especially true with respect to Flights 11 and 175.

So, as a secondary source, I would accept a claim, by an official business record, that such records exist, provided the description of what is said to exist is specific enough to reasonably conclude that records exist and that identification via DNA was made in the records.

No such records exist to my knowledge, and I have looked.

As nearly as I can ascertain, as of today, the question of what DNA records exist or do not exist and whether or not remains of Flight 11 and 175 passengers are identified continues to be utterly unknown.

That means that claims that DNA evidence proves what happened are demonstrably false or unproven.

And no, I do not accept claims contained in newspaper articles. (period)
 
In 2001 when carrying a video camera was rare.

Indeed ... but I suppose that is what happens when common sense seems to be a quality lacking in some peoples thought process ... probably because it is too lost in the fog of pointless rhetoric and long-winded verbosity !!!
 
Jamm, while we are waiting for all of your (lurkers) support to show up and help you out, would you mind going back in this thread and address some of the questions that you refuse to answer?

I seek to address all legitimate questions that I can; and I routinely disregard rhetorical gotcha games.

If there are legitimate questions you can identify that you think need answering, post them.

Mind you, this process of dialogue works better when each poster posts up their respective claims. I'm not willing to engage in other posters' "20 questions games" as that process does not advance the state of information in a thread. I also do not put posters in that position either.
 
I require neither more nor less DNA evidence than would be required to competently make the claim that persons have been identified by DNA; namely, the DNA records.
What is your standing in requesting these records?
jammonius said:
I would also recognize that based on the sensitivity of records of that nature, it might not be possible to get them very easily. One might have to resort to an official FOIA request and one might have to go through a process to get them. Further, the records ultimately obtained might be heavily blacked-out to protect personal data.
When did you request them?
jammonius said:
FOIA requests have been made and some are still pending. No DNA records have ever been produced. But, more interesting than that, the denial of the FOIA requests are unclear as to whether they even acknowledge the existence of such records or the finding of responsive information containing DNA identification. This is especially true with respect to Flights 11 and 175.
You did request them yourself, right?

So, as a secondary source, I would accept a claim, by an official business record, that such records exist, provided the description of what is said to exist is specific enough to reasonably conclude that records exist and that identification via DNA was made in the records.
Perhaps you could post the FOIA that you filed here, so that we could all see it?

jammonius said:
No such records exist to my knowledge, and I have looked.
Let's just say that I give your word exactly as much credence as you give newspaper articles. Please provide a summary of where and how you have "looked" for these records.

jammonius said:
As nearly as I can ascertain, as of today, the question of what DNA records exist or do not exist and whether or not remains of Flight 11 and 175 passengers are identified continues to be utterly unknown.
I have highlighted and emphasized the important bits of the above text. This problem you have appears to be unique to one individual.

jammonius said:
That means that claims that DNA evidence proves what happened are demonstrably false or unproven.
The logical fallacy you have employed here is known as affirming the consequentWP. You are welcome.
jammonius said:
And no, I do not accept claims contained in newspaper articles. (period)
It is an interesting planet that you inhabit, whereby claims made by Judy Wood have credence, but claims made by coroners do not.
 
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Jammie seriously expects crystal clear hi-definition images

No-planers tend to make sure they use only the poorest quality footage available.

You are very unlikely to find a collection of impact videos of higher quality than those enclosed within this playlist...

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=DC1AE6E3F5C7FF8D

Most are in HD 1280*720 format.

Here's a wee aircraft...
175_8.jpg
 
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Well, my inbox is still empty, and so far, the only messages I have received since joining were from moderators, and one from a poster questioning my avatar. So, I really don’t expect to have to sort through a large amount of messages when I get home later.

OK, you have turned my attempt at humor on its ear.

The above was one of the biggest piles of bovine defecation I have read. The exercise going on during the week of 9/11 was a “Command” type exercise. And to think that only a “hand full” of people were involved in the planning and the carrying out of this exercise is shear nonsense. Even those involved in the day to day “real world” operations knew of this exercise. And that is why the question; "...Is this exercise or real world?..." was asked.

You haven't refuted the confusion that was caused by the inability to distinguish "real" from "exercise" in a situation that involved simulated hijackings.

In fact, you have not openly acknowledged that the military exercises taking place on 9/11 involved simulated hijackings.

You appear to be avoiding that key factor. You shouldn't.

Perhaps your pit crew, the “lurkers”, haven’t notified you that you have been lapped by everyone in the field. That includes all of us, or we… damn, that doesn’t include me, or “I”, or… aw, the hell with it.

Hey, that is one of the more creative ways to declare "you are right and I am wrong" to have appeared recently.

When are you going to learn that self-congratulatory declarations by a poster that that poster is right are useless? They are, if anything, indicators of a lack of self-confidence and of a need to reassure oneself.

Earth to Fess: It's alright with me if you think you are right. You may continue to think that for as long as you can. :D
 
As nearly as I can ascertain, as of today, the question of what DNA records exist or do not exist and whether or not remains of Flight 11 and 175 passengers are identified continues to be utterly unknown.
. (period)

You've been given this information several times.

You've been given a name and phone number with which to confirm it and possibly get more.

You've ignored or dismissed it.
 
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