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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Yay. Thanks mods. Rose posted an extract from AK's appeal over on PMF about the test for blood done on the luminol footprints, which I think may also be relevant to the knife, LJ:

Thanks katy. It certainly seems that TMB is a sufficiently sensitive and accurate test for H202 to not throw up a measurable level of false negatives. In other words, if a TMB test showed no blood, there almost certainly was no blood. Interesting...
 
Yay. Thanks mods. Rose posted an extract from AK's appeal over on PMF about the test for blood done on the luminol footprints, which I think may also be relevant to the knife, LJ:
LondonJohn said:
Thanks katy. It certainly seems that TMB is a sufficiently sensitive and accurate test for H202 to not throw up a measurable level of false negatives. In other words, if a TMB test showed no blood, there almost certainly was no blood. Interesting...

Shamelessly stealing Fiona's response from PMF:
Fiona said:
Well no, not according to this article. Treatment with luminol on tile specifically does produce false negatives. So does washing with bleach, apparently. Are you saying that the TMB test was done first? If so where did you get that information?

http://projects.nfstc.org/workshops...ffect of Luminol on Presumptive Tests and.pdf
Prior to luminol testing, both PT and TMB performed well
in detecting the blood on all surfaces which had not been washed.
Both tests gave positive results 7/7 times. Similar results were obtained
on the surfaces which had been washed with either water or
soap and water. There were 14/14 positive results for both tests, although
a weak result was obtained for the sheetrock-V tested with
TMB. The testing of the surfaces which had been washed with
bleach gave strong positive results with PT on 5/7 surfaces; the
sheetrock-V was a weak positive and the sheetrock-H was negative.
For those same surfaces tested with TMB, 3/7 gave strong positive
results; one weak positive (tile) and three negative results (carpet,
sheetrock-V, and sheetrock-H).

<snip>

Four of the surfaces which gave positive
results with the TMB test before luminol treatment gave negative
results after treatment (both wet and dry), and one of the surfaces
which gave positive results before luminol treatment and after
luminol treatment (wet) gave negative results once the surface had
dried.
 
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I staunchly believe in the innocence of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. Help me understand those of you who believe in guilt. Do I have the following list right? Maybe this is how we can pinpoint where our differences lie.

This is my own creation, and I need it in list manner to understand you. I want to update it when notified of discrepancies with trustworthy sources. I will make additions that are in complete sentences referring to specific verifiable actions.

In order of importance, those who believe in guilt believe:

1) Amanda Knox accused Patrick Lumumba voluntarily of murder in her final middle-of-the-night unrecorded confession without coercion on the part of the interrogation team.

2) Even though Amanda pointed a finger towards Patrick Lumumba as the murderer and he proved innocent, her other statements in the interrogation were truthful, such as she was in the cottage covering her ears. This “covering my ears” statement is as good as admitting to abetting in the murder of Meredith Kercher, even though Amanda made no other statements regarding witnessing the actual murder.

3) That during this final interrogation, Amanda Knox was not threatened with jail for 30 years, nor hit on the back of the head, and she had an adequate professional interpreter. The denying of an attorney was for expediency and she was not yet a suspect. She was good enough at speaking Italian and mature enough to understand what was occurring. She deserves being sued for defamation for stating she was struck by the policewoman she identified with “long, chestnut colored hair.”

4) Rudy Guede was in the murder room assisted by Amanda Knox and Raffaele, even though there is no DNA or other evidence of Amanda's being there, and no communication was ever proven prior (or subsequently) via cell phone, or any evidence produced that they even really knew each other. Amanda knew Rudy by sight and had seen him a few times (due to her downstairs roommates) and Raffaele didn’t know him at all.

5) The bra clasp with Raffaele’s DNA collected 47 days after the murder (all the while Raffaele was in jail with NO evidence against him) found in a separate part of the murder room and even dropped on the floor by the collection team unquestioningly did indeed have his DNA along with 3 other people still unidentified. This DNA had to have been deposited while the murder was taking place by Raffaele himself. The rare low copy number process of DNA analysis used is sound.

6) The Double DNA knife found in Raffaele’s apartment several blocks away was indeed one of the murder weapons (there had to be 2 knives because Raffaele’s apartment knife was too big for two of the neck wounds), and the fact that Amanda’s DNA was on the handle, which could be expected since she cooked with it, definitely proves to be the murder weapon because Meredith’s non-blood DNA was found on the blade. No other knives from this drawer were tested to cross check for contamination. This is proof Amanda did at least one neck injury to Meredith.

7) The smoking of hashish by Amanda and Raffaele is an indication of poor character and helped lead them to becoming murderers. They may have been addicts. Amanda and Raffaele’s positive school attendance records and teacher interactions, or lack of prior history towards violence, have no bearing on this case.

8) Amanda Knox heavily influenced Rudy Guede and Raffaele. She had power over them.

9) Even though Amanda never did a true “cartwheel” at the police station while talking politely with police officers (she really did a yoga exercise), it doesn’t matter. It was behavior of a murderess, along with her purchase of underwear, and odd behavior at the police station witnessed by Meredith’s British friends who had learned of the murder several hours after Amanda.

10) Rudy Guede’s prior brushes with the law do not indicate a violent person. He needed Amanda Knox to push him to murder.

11) The times Amanda and Raffaele turned off their cell phones is an indication of guilt.

12) The conflicting statements by Amanda regarding times and durations of phone calls made to roommates and Amanda’s mother before the murder was discovered is an indication of guilt. The time of Amanda’s call to her mother in a different time zone, waking her up, is also an indication of guilt.

13) The interrogations were done properly and legally, and there is no way that Amanda Knox’s final statement in the middle of the night after 50+ hours of attendance at the police station and interrogations during the first 90 hours of the discovery of the body would have made the statements she did unless she was guilty. Doesn’t matter that she attended class that week and couldn’t sleep at night, because she was guilty. (Many students were fleeing Perugia due to fear.)

14) The mixed DNA of Amanda and Meredith in the bathroom they shared must be due to Amanda’s involvement in the murder. Also, the one case of mixed DNA of Amanda’s in another roommate’s room Amanda had entered is an indication of guilt.

15) There was a staged break-in. No doubt about it. (I need a succinct sentence or two here on why those who believe in guilt believe this.)

16) The prosecution’s leaking of evidence and falsehoods to the press in Italy has nothing to do with the outcome of the trial.

17) The illegal behavior in a prior serial murder case by the main prosecutor of Amanda and Raffaele, Giuliano Mignini, has no bearing on this case.

18) The noise citation Amanda Knox received due to live bands at a party she had in Seattle is an indication of a troubled person. (There was no rock throwing at this party as reported in tabloids.)

To sum up, I request those of you who believe in guilt to advise me where I am misunderstanding your positions as outlined above.

This looks like a pretty good summary in terms of putting the matter in perspective. In the interests of truthfulness, however, I will point out that (5) the bra fastener was not a low-copy-number sample and (9) the cartwheel apparently was a real cartwheel. As for (18) the rock-throwing at the party, it may have happened but nobody has ever said that Amanda was involved. Apparently she spent that evening in a long conversation with a friend who had just split up with her boyfriend.
 
Shamelessly stealing Fiona's response from PMF:

I just posted this as a separate post, then noticed you referred to the article Fiona posted as well:

Fiona posted a link to an article which is interesting in that it suggests there can be false negatives for the TMB test. But the problem with that claim in relation to the footprints is that the tests which were 'false negatives' were those where the tiles had been washed in bleach. The footprints can't have been washed in bleach, because they wouldn't be visible at all: there would be a "faint luminescence", as in the surfaces they tested in that paper, but no visible marks - certainly not as clear as the footprints are. They can't even have been washed in soap and water, since on the non-porous tile surface that would have washed them away completely. That's why Massei has to conclude they were invisible footprints that were left after the person had washed their feet.

According to that paper, the TMB test was positive for blood on an unwashed tile surface, washed with water, and washed with soap and water; the only surface on which it didn't test positive is where the tile was washed with bleach, which, as I said, is impossible in relation to the footprints.

I'm interested to know whether what Massei suggests is possible - could a diluted mixture of blood and water have produced such a strong luminol reaction? And given the strength of that reaction, is it possible it could then test negative with the TMB test?
 
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For those interested in the nail, I have posted a photo:

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/wall_showing_nail.jpg

I'd obviously agree that it's extremely unlikely (if not impossible) that an adult used that nail as some sort of foothold and didn't deform it (or the brickwork it was nailed into) in any way.

But I still can't see how a tall, athletic adult male couldn't pull himself up by his fingers until his waist (centre of gravity) was level with the upper window ledge, without needing to find any footholds between the lower window grate and the upper ledge. Upward momentum would be provided not only by arm strength, but also by a sharp push upward from the legs, via the firm foothold on the lower window's grate. This upward momentum would (I believe) be more than sufficient to propel someone up until their waist was level with the upper ledge, after which they could manoeuvre themselves fully onto the ledge.

Of course, this is all sheer speculation. But I believe that an entry to the murder house via Filomena's window would have been possible for an agile male. Whether that's what actually did happen, however, is another matter altogether...
 
Thank you for re-opening the thread.

Regarding the absence of blood on the "murder knife": one of the appeal documents appears to say that eminent forensic scientists believe there's a very, very low possibility of a false negative. That's to say, the fact that the tests for blood showed no presence of blood is (in their view) a virtual assurance that there was no blood on the knife. The blood tests appear to be sensitive to even miniscule traces of blood.

It's extremely interesting, therefore, that no blood was found on the knife, yet DNA from Meredith apparently was found on the knife - albeit found at sensitivities new to the world of forensic science, and sensitivities which have never been peer-reviewed, tested in research laboratory conditions, or replicated.

This raises interesting questions. For example, if the knife were one of the murder weapons, how could it have been cleaned sufficiently to remove all traces of Meredith's blood, but yet not cleaned enough to remove other sources of her DNA, such as skin cells? And, for example, if the knife had been extensively scrubbed with bleach after the murder to remove incriminating evidence, why did the oxidising agent in the bleach destroy any and all blood DNA, but leave some skin cell DNA intact?


After all the accusations that flew here yesterday about how Amanda's supporters have strong tendencies to ignore, avoid, evade, stonewall and hand-wave, I feel certain the questions you have presented here, John, will be addressed in detail by her detractors.
 
But we're talking here about TMB tests on a non-porous stainless steel knife, not luminol (or luminol/TMB) tests on tiles, sheetrock or carpet.

You mean the knife that had approximately 10 cells on it? And being as TMB is able to detect concentrations that have a minimum of 5 blood cells before bleach and/or luminol is used, I think your point is not as valid as you would hope.
 
You mean the knife that had approximately 10 cells on it? And being as TMB is able to detect concentrations that have a minimum of 5 blood cells before bleach and/or luminol is used, I think your point is not as valid as you would hope.

Hopefully we'll get to read the section on the knife from the appeals at some point. Presumably the defence wouldn't be so stupid as to miss the obvious fact you mention. How many cells were found on the knife? I guess if there were 5+, that should lead to a positive TMB test even if bleach had been used, right? I mean, bleach might have gotten rid of most of whatever was on the knife, but what was there was there, and would've tested positive for blood.

ETA: Oh wait, sorry, didn't read your post properly. You said there were 10 cells on the knife? Well then, they should've tested positive for blood with the TMB test, shouldn't they...?
 
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You mean the knife that had approximately 10 cells on it? And being as TMB is able to detect concentrations that have a minimum of 5 blood cells before bleach and/or luminol is used, I think your point is not as valid as you would hope.

But the prosecution is alleging that the knife was scrubbed clean with bleach after the murder. How did the DNA from 10 cells (presumably dermal/epidermal skin cells) survive the bleaching, whilst all the blood products (including the red cells necessary for a positive TMB test and the white cells containing the DNA) were oxidised and destroyed? This is some selectively-acting bleach here...
 
Shamelessly stealing Fiona's response from PMF:

Yeah, I guess that would pass muster over at PMF where people don't check facts.

The paper is here (your link was broken) and if you look at the table on page 839 the phenolphthalin test still showed positive results on horizontal sheetrock (which I imagine is the closest to tile) after luminol use even after washing with soap and water. Only washing with bleach wiped away the evidence of blood. There is no evidence whatsoever anyone cleaned that apartment with bleach.

So while it's certainly clear that the use of luminol makes it harder to subsequently pick up traces of blood, according to that paper it still should have been possible unless bleach was used, if we equate tile with sheetrock.

I find that interesting because I thought the simplest explanations for the male luminol footprints was that they were indeed very-slightly-bloody footprints left behind by Rudy. Given the evidence of that paper, it's starting to look more likely that the luminol footprints are just totally irrelevant.
 
You mean the knife that had approximately 10 cells on it? And being as TMB is able to detect concentrations that have a minimum of 5 blood cells before bleach and/or luminol is used, I think your point is not as valid as you would hope.

I believe it said numbers 176 to 183 were tested. It made mention that the knife was also tested, if I read it correctly.

Rep 176, Filomena's room, no description, Meredith's and Amanda's DNA*
Rep 177, Amanda's room, no description, Meredith's and Amanda's DNA
Rep 178, Amanda's room, bare footprint, Amanda's DNA
Rep 179, Amanda's room, bare footprint, Amanda's DNA
Rep 180, Amanda's room, bare footprint, Amanda's DNA
Rep 181, corridor, bare footprint, no profile
Rep 182, corridor, bare footprint, no profile
Rep 183, corridor, shoe print, Meredith's and Amanda's DNA
 
Shamelessly stealing Fiona's response from PMF:

(regarding false negatives with TMB.)

Let's look at this in terms of the totality of the evidence now available.

- There were a total of four bare footprints revealed with luminol, three in the corridor, and one in Amanda's room. The one in Amanda's room seems to have involved a couple of partial prints and so was tested three times (Rep. 178, 179, and 180).

- They don't say whether Rep. 184 (one of the hallway prints) was tested with TMB. I wonder if that is a mistake in the text of the appeal, because the span covers 176-183, i.e., all but one of the luminol reactions from the cottage. In any case, the net result is that Meredith's DNA was not found in any of the bare footprints, the TMB result was negative in every case where it was used.

- The prints did not form any trail or pattern, and the single luminol footprint closest to Meredith's doorway had the toes pointing toward, rather than away from, the door.

- There were no bare footprints inside Meredith's room, detected with or without luminol.

- Investigators recorded numerous places in Sollecito's apartment that also reacted with luminol, and tested them all for DNA, but has never tried to suggest these were made with anyone's blood.

Does the overall fact pattern support the prosecution's claim that the bare footprints detected with luminol were made with Meredith's blood?
 
I'd obviously agree that it's extremely unlikely (if not impossible) that an adult used that nail as some sort of foothold and didn't deform it (or the brickwork it was nailed into) in any way.

But I still can't see how a tall, athletic adult male couldn't pull himself up by his fingers until his waist (centre of gravity) was level with the upper window ledge, without needing to find any footholds between the lower window grate and the upper ledge. Upward momentum would be provided not only by arm strength, but also by a sharp push upward from the legs, via the firm foothold on the lower window's grate. This upward momentum would (I believe) be more than sufficient to propel someone up until their waist was level with the upper ledge, after which they could manoeuvre themselves fully onto the ledge.

Of course, this is all sheer speculation. But I believe that an entry to the murder house via Filomena's window would have been possible for an agile male. Whether that's what actually did happen, however, is another matter altogether...

As LondonJohn says, we have no way of knowing what actually happened.

However the manoeuvre of pulling oneself up and over a ledge is routine for amateur rock climbers, even without the opportunity to push oneself up using one's legs. As LondonJohn says the key is getting some upward momentum as you ascend to carry you over the awkward spot where you have very little leverage. It's not something the average couch potato could do, certainly, but it's well within the capabilities of fit people who aren't Olympic athletes.

Just to repeat myself however, a hypothesis which is still equally possible is that Rudy got in by other means and then broke the window to try to make it look like a random break-in. It's by no means necessary for the defence case that Rudy got in the window.
 
(regarding false negatives with TMB.)

Let's look at this in terms of the totality of the evidence now available.

- There were a total of four bare footprints revealed with luminol, three in the corridor, and one in Amanda's room. The one in Amanda's room seems to have involved a couple of partial prints and so was tested three times (Rep. 178, 179, and 180).

- They don't say whether Rep. 184 (one of the hallway prints) was tested with TMB. I wonder if that is a mistake in the text of the appeal, because the span covers 176-183, i.e., all but one of the luminol reactions from the cottage. In any case, the net result is that Meredith's DNA was not found in any of the bare footprints, the TMB result was negative in every case where it was used.

- The prints did not form any trail or pattern, and the single luminol footprint closest to Meredith's doorway had the toes pointing toward, rather than away from, the door.

- There were no bare footprints inside Meredith's room, detected with or without luminol.

- Investigators recorded numerous places in Sollecito's apartment that also reacted with luminol, and tested them all for DNA, but has never tried to suggest these were made with anyone's blood.

Does the overall fact pattern support the prosecution's claim that the bare footprints detected with luminol were made with Meredith's blood?

The other thing is even in that testing after cleaning experiment, some of the samples still came up as positive, yet none came up as positive here.
 
I find that interesting because I thought the simplest explanations for the male luminol footprints was that they were indeed very-slightly-bloody footprints left behind by Rudy. Given the evidence of that paper, it's starting to look more likely that the luminol footprints are just totally irrelevant.

That's what I think. They'd have gotten the same results even if no crime had occurred. They needed evidence against Amanda and Raffaele, so they freighted random forensic data with a significance that the facts simply cannot support.
 
This looks like a pretty good summary in terms of putting the matter in perspective. In the interests of truthfulness, however, I will point out that (5) the bra fastener was not a low-copy-number sample and (9) the cartwheel apparently was a real cartwheel. As for (18) the rock-throwing at the party, it may have happened but nobody has ever said that Amanda was involved. Apparently she spent that evening in a long conversation with a friend who had just split up with her boyfriend.

Thank you, Charlie. I will correct my list regarding the lcn in (5).

My source for the cartwheel incident is from what I thought Edda herself said on the Oprah show. Did I misunderstand her? I'll have to look that up.

Since Amanda herself was not involved in rock throwing, I'll leave my list the way it is on that issue.
 
Thank you, Charlie. I will correct my list regarding the lcn in (5).

My source for the cartwheel incident is from what I thought Edda herself said on the Oprah show. Did I misunderstand her? I'll have to look that up.

Since Amanda herself was not involved in rock throwing, I'll leave my list the way it is on that issue.

I believe Raffaele's appeal did indicate that although the sample was not small, it was mixed and Raffaele's portion of that sample was LCN. As I have now posted the appeals you can check and see if I remember this correctly.
 
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