kmortis
Biomechanoid, Director of IDIOCY (Region 13)
Anyone else want to read the thread that DOC is reading? 'Cause it sure ain't this one.
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Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.
- Thread starter DOC
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Lothian
should be banned
Lothian
should be banned
Simon39759
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X
Slide Rulez 4 Life
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1) What does "Christian hater" have to do with anything? Does it affect the validity of the claim?
2) What does "6th most influential person..." have to do with anything? Does it affect the validity of the claim?
3) How do we know Paul say "a [blinding] light"? Maybe he's just claiming it happened. Or maybe he had a seizure.
4) How did Paul know it was the voice of Jesus? Paul's letters clearly indicate that he had never met Jesus.
5) Why should an argument containing weasel-words (1), argument by popularity (2) and unfounded assertionS (3 & 4) carry any weight at all?
6) Who is "Luke"? We have no evidence that the author of the Gospel According to Luke is Luke the apostle, and plenty of evidence that it was not.
7) How does "Luke" know others saw the light? Was "Luke" there with Paul? Or is he just reporting Paul's claims? If he was there, how come he never said so?
8) Why should a hearsay account (6) of an event, with unsubstantiated assertions (7), carry any weight at all?
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kmortis
Biomechanoid, Director of IDIOCY (Region 13)
Didja ever think that maybe Jesus worked for Coppertone? Hrm? I bet you didn't, Mr. Smartypants.
Ichneumonwasp
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Where did Paul claim that he saw a light and heard the voice of Jesus?
The author of Luke reported three different versions of this event, so which should I believe? Yes, we've gone over it; there are contradictions, and your simple claim of no contradiction when the facts are there for all to see does not change what is in the text.
ETA:
Just to cut off the unnecessary reply, here is the evidence from the texts once again:
There are, most certainly, contradictions in the accounts. In the first Paul’s companions are said to hear the voice but not see anyone. In the second his companions are said to have seen the light but not hear the voice. In the third everyone falls to the ground, but there is mention only of Saul falling to the ground in all the other versions. In the first version the men are said to have stood speechless.
Version 1 from Acts 9:
[1] But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest
[2] and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.
[3] Now as he journeyed he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed about him.
[4] And he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"
[5] And he said, "Who are you, Lord?" And he said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting;
[6] but rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do."
[7] The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one.
[8] Saul arose from the ground; and when his eyes were opened, he could see nothing; so they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus.
[9] And for three days he was without sight, and neither ate nor drank.
Version 2 from Acts 22:
[6]"As I made my journey and drew near to Damascus, about noon a great light from heaven suddenly shone about me.
[7] And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, `Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?'
[8] And I answered, `Who are you, Lord?' And he said to me, `I am Jesus of Nazareth whom you are persecuting.'
[9] Now those who were with me saw the light but did not hear the voice of the one who was speaking to me.
[10] And I said, `What shall I do, Lord?' And the Lord said to me, `Rise, and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all that is appointed for you to do.'
[11] And when I could not see because of the brightness of that light, I was led by the hand by those who were with me, and came into Damascus.
Version 3 from Acts 26
[12]"Thus I journeyed to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests.
[13] At midday, O king, I saw on the way a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining round me and those who journeyed with me.
[14] And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, `Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It hurts you to kick against the goads.'
[15] And I said, `Who are you, Lord?' And the Lord said, `I am Jesus whom you are persecuting.
[16] But rise and stand upon your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you to serve and bear witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you,
[17] delivering you from the people and from the Gentiles -- to whom I send you
[18] to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'
The simple truth is that the accounts differ. And in none do we directly hear the voice of Paul; rather it is the author of Luke putting words in Paul’s mouth. Paul, himself, does not describe the event in this way. In fact, he relates no details, simply mentioning that Jesus appeared to him and that Jesus was revealed to him.
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Paulhoff
You can't expect perfection.
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I see a picture of about 15 stones. What is the earliest written account you know of that Julius Caesar (the man we have no signature for) was placed in a tomb.
How come you or any other skeptics never say this to Joobz when he talks about the servant/slavery issue probably 3 times more than I talk about martyred apostles.
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Cleon
King of the Pod People
Cleon
King of the Pod People
Yeah...See, DOC, there's this old saying that "extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence."
There have been dictators and military leaders throughout history; the existence of one specific individual is not remarkable. His existence is evidenced by the huge amount of contemporary documentation and archaeological remains. As it's been 2000 years, the lack of physical remains or signature (on biodegradable paper or parchment) is not an indication one way or the other of his existence.
You will note that nobody has demanded to know the location of Jesus' remains or his handwriting. (Assuming he was literate; if he was a Jewish male, this is not impossible.) Some contemporary ("contemporary" meaning not-decades-after-the-fact) documentation by third parties would be strong evidence for a historical Jesus. This is something Gaius Julius Caesar has in spades.
The difference is, Caesar's life is not intertwined with supernatural mythology; his life is not the basis of any religion, and it's not widely believed that he was the simultaneous son and physical manifestation of God on Earth.
In one case, there is an overwhelming amount of evidence for Caesar's existence and his personal role in the history of Europe. In the other, the only "evidence" was written down and compiled by committee long after the events described supposedly occurred.
Comparing the two (as you insist on doing, over and over and over and over and over again) isn't comparing apples and oranges, it's more like comparing apples and Bigfoot.
Elizabeth I
Philosopher
I think in doc's case there are religious objections to the use of the question mark.
Or at least he certainly seems to avoid it religiously.
Ichneumonwasp
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Not sure there is one. He was cremated after all. There were probably earlier accounts of his cremation, but the first one of which I am aware is Suetonius' Life of Caesar.
But what difference does that make in such discussion?
We have busts of Caesar. We have coins with his likeness. We have several of his own writings. We have contemporary accounts from Cicero and even references in Catallus' poetry to him, not to mention Sallust's references.
Trying to argue that we know more about Jesus than Caesar can only be based on ignorance.
Whether or not we can trust all the stories about Julius Caesar is another matter. I don't think any historian believes we can accept all the stories uncritically.
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