Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Mary_H]

This is an incomprehensible post. Do you think any system must be okay if their citizens are living with it? The large majority of governments around the world are authoritarian dictatorships to a greater or lesser degree. When citizens express their displeasure with the government, they go to jail or get killed (for example, the Iranians who protested their government's rigged election). The practices of some Muslim countries are too notorious to recount. Do you think anybody freely voted for these atrocities? If citizens aren't protesting government corruption and tyranny, it's because they value their lives.

http://www.amnesty.org/en

Italy is certainly no dictatorship. In fact, some aspects of its government might create the impression that nobody is in charge. But according to a document posted on this thread, Italy didn't adopt the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" until quite recently. I suspect that the previous guiding principle, "what the government says must be true," still pervades the criminal justice system, particularly when a state prosecutor directs police investigations and calls himself a "judge." When Americans are imprisoned by such a system, it is reasonable for Americans to ask whether the system reached the correct conclusion. Saying "that's just the way they do things" doesn't resolve the question.

Good post, Bob.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

only one knife is needed

Does that mean that it is possible, maybe even likely, that more than one weapon was used?

The ordinary kitchen knife was not compatible with two of the three wounds, nor did it match the bloody outline of a knife found at the crimescene. The prosecution was forced by these facts into invoking a two-knife scenario, where one of them, smaller than the kitchen knife, was never recovered. On the other hand, this smaller knife could have made all three wounds and be responsible for the bloody outline.

@BobTheDonkey. Any knife could have made the third wound (those pesky little things called facts).

 

[Mrs.Columbo]

But according to a document posted on this thread, Italy didn't adopt the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" until quite recently

I do not see the problem here - this is a matter belonging to the state of Italy.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

presumption of innocence

But according to a document posted on this thread, Italy didn't adopt the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" until quite recently

I do not see the problem here - this is a matter belonging to the state of Italy.

In Vanity Fair, Judy Bachrach wrote “The Italian legal system, ecclesiastical judge Count Neri Capponi informs me, will not work in Amanda’s favor. ‘Our system stems from the Inquisition and also from medieval law,’ he explains. What this means, in effect, he says, is that justice in Italy ‘is based on the supremacy of the prosecution. This nullifies the fact—written in our constitution by the way—that you’re innocent until proven guilty.’”

 

[Mary_H]

But according to a document posted on this thread, Italy didn't adopt the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" until quite recently

I do not see the problem here - this is a matter belonging to the state of Italy.

Imagine for a moment the situation of an innocent person who is accused of a crime in a country where the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" is not embraced. What is an innocent suspect to do if they cannot prove they did not commit the crime they are accused of?

 

[Bob001]

But according to a document posted on this thread, Italy didn't adopt the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" until quite recently

I do not see the problem here - this is a matter belonging to the state of Italy.

I am astonished. If innocent people are being imprisoned that is a matter for everyone who cares about justice. Many posters on this thread have argued that Knox etc. were convicted properly based on evidence presented at a fair trial. That's a legitimate position to take, although I don't agree with it. But you seem to contend that it doesn't even matter whether the trial was fair or whether the defendants are guilty. By your logic, anything any government does to anybody is nobody else's business. I doubt that many people, certainly here, would agree with you.

 

[Malkmus]

Italy has no Jury, it is a paneel of judges. But you must not go so far, look at the Scott-Peterson-case:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Peterson
In later press appearances, members of the jury stated that they felt that Peterson's demeanor—specifically, his lack of emotion, and the phone calls to Amber Frey in the days following Laci's disappearance—indicated that he was guilty. They based their verdict on "hundreds of small 'puzzle pieces' of circumstantial evidence that came out during the trial, from the location of Laci Peterson's body to the myriad of lies her husband told after her disappearance."

IMO, the circumstantial evidence against Scott Peterson far outweighs that against Amanda or Rafaelle. Not only did he have a strong and clear motive for killing his wife, he was even recorded telling a woman that Laci was dead before she was even known to be missing. Not to mention his extremely guilty actions upon arrest which showed that he was planning on disguising himself and skipping town.

 

[Fiona]

In Vanity Fair, Judy Bachrach wrote “The Italian legal system, ecclesiastical judge Count Neri Capponi informs me, will not work in Amanda’s favor. ‘Our system stems from the Inquisition and also from medieval law,’ he explains. What this means, in effect, he says, is that justice in Italy ‘is based on the supremacy of the prosecution. This nullifies the fact—written in our constitution by the way—that you’re innocent until proven guilty.’”

Since he is an ecclesiastical judge I do not think we need let Neri Capponi detain us. His own legal practice may come from the inquistion: that is understandable given his position

http://www.ewtn.com/library/canonlaw/crifaith.htm

 

[capealadin]

Mary: Raffaele and Amanda may wish they had ACTED differently, but it wouldn't have changed the fact that they lied, and the evidence would prove that they were lying. Strange that only they were so confused, and yet could remember what they ate, what movie they watched, etc. They only get confused memories when their stories don't match up.Raffaele hasn't accused the police of beating him (what? were the police afraid he'd hit them back?) or co-ercing him. Not a word. And yet, he was the first to break.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

The ordinary kitchen knife was not compatible with two of the three wounds, nor did it match the bloody outline of a knife found at the crimescene. The prosecution was forced by these facts into invoking a two-knife scenario, where one of them, smaller than the kitchen knife, was never recovered. On the other hand, this smaller knife could have made all three wounds and be responsible for the bloody outline.

@BobTheDonkey. Any knife could have made the third wound (those pesky little things called facts).

Any knife? Are you sure? What about all these knives that were determined to not fit the wound in Meredith's neck?

(Picture borrowed from PMF. These are the knives that were found in the kitchen at the Cottage.)

And you didn't answer my question regarding whether you believe Rudy entered through Filomena's window. Do you, or do you not, believe Rudy entered the cottage through Filomena's window?

 

[tsig]

The word ignorant: lacking knowledge, or unaware, not informed. Many people are awaiting the translation, so yes, many are ignorant at the moment, as to the results. No rush, though, as the appeal will only be heard in November. As to the people who are doing the translation, they have a better understanding than the rest of us at the moment. Fair enough, as it is done on their time, and their expense. Anyone here who wants to share that advantage, start putting up the money. Oh, and dig deep.

The price for a ten thousand word document from Italian to English:

http://translatorcorner.com/searchresults.aspx?search=10982

I presume a twenty thousand word document would be twice as much and the use of legal jargon could up the price.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

In my view, the autopsy findings are consistent with the following scenario: A single intruder confronts Meredith with a knife, forcing her into the corner of her room against the wardrobe. He tells her to get on her knees, then puts the knife to her throat while pulling up her top and pulling down her trousers with his other hand. He inserts his fingers into her vagina, at which point she struggles against the knife, which causes the shallower non-fatal wound. Meredith then begins to scream, causing the attacker to inflict the large fatal knife wound(s). I think (but am not certain) that anatomically the breakage of the hyoid bone could easily have occurred during the infliction of the knife wounds, rather than during a separate strangulation.

I too believe it was Rudi alone, one of the reasons they give for multiple attackers, is the fact Rudi's DNA was found on Meredith's left wrist on her sweater and they say he couldn't be holding her down, holding a knife at her throat and be sexually assaulting her all at the same time. This is true, but those 3 things do not have to all happen at the same time.

Another reason they give is that two knifes were used, I've heard the 'famous' double DNA kitchen knife could only have made one of the wounds, I don't think it made any. I'ld rather know if there is a type of knife capable of making all 3 wounds by itself? If there is, then thats Rudi's knife.

One main difference here though, is that I also believe Amanda (at the very least) is sitting in the kitchen with her hands over her ears while Rudi is killing Meredith.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

I have been watching the video simulation of the brick through the window again. I still can't reconcile it with the reality of the situation.

1.In the video there does not appear to be a latch/lock on the interior shutters, whereas in reality the are and Filomena said they were locked. I they were not locked, could not the "burglar" just push them open rather than climbing up there to open the unlocked but wedged exterior shutters and then going back down to throw a rock through them?

2. There are pretty clear pictures of the lock/latch on the interior shutters in the pictures I have provided. They do not appear to be bent or damaged. So again why the rock if they were unlocked? I thought it was to break the window so the burglar could reach inside and unlock the latch, yet in the video they swing open through the impact of the rock.

3. What am I missing here?

Rose - I see you have been reachering the window quite a bit - what do you know about the '2 1/2 inch Nail'?

 

[christianahannah]

In Vanity Fair, Judy Bachrach wrote “The Italian legal system, ecclesiastical judge Count Neri Capponi informs me, will not work in Amanda’s favor. ‘Our system stems from the Inquisition and also from medieval law,’ he explains. What this means, in effect, he says, is that justice in Italy ‘is based on the supremacy of the prosecution. This nullifies the fact—written in our constitution by the way—that you’re innocent until proven guilty.’”

I take a positive position from the Count's quote. In fact, he quotes the (Italy) constitution as stating one is innocent until proven guilty. I would hope and believe that is what is applied to those brought before the court.

The other words he quotes are part his opinion and what he may have experienced in the past with the judicial system. They may not be true for the present.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Apparently Raffaele's appeal argues that Rudy cut himself when climbing up, and that this explains the cuts healing on his right hand when he was arrested. His right hand would be the one closest to the glass as he climbed up, of course.

I highly doubt they will argue that he cut himself on the glass before he even entered the house - and then, did not leave one drop of it anywhere after.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

please check the link I provided (again)

Any knife? Are you sure? What about all these knives that were determined to not fit the wound in Meredith's neck?

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=506&pictureid=3166[/qimg]
(Picture borrowed from PMF. These are the knives that were found in the kitchen at the Cottage.)

And you didn't answer my question regarding whether you believe Rudy entered through Filomena's window. Do you, or do you not, believe Rudy entered the cottage through Filomena's window?

BobTheDonkey,

From the link a post at Perugia-Shock I previously provided, "Professor Cingolani has been stressed by basically everyone about the relation between wounds and knife. He has been treating, even with surprising positions, all minor wounds.
Until Amanda Knox's lawyer Carlo Dalla Vedova brought him to say something very clear about the main one: any single-edge knife is compatible with Meredith's larger wound." It is the other wounds that are not compatible with this large knife.

Despite your repeated attempts to put words into my mouth, I hold no final opinion on the question you asked.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

To present this incident as "proof" that Amanda had a criminal past is desperate and false.

I'm going to back you on this on this one Mary, Thats like saying getting a jay-walking ticket and you have a record. Amanda's first 'Known" brush with the law, was when she killed Meredith.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

bioinformatics

DHis opinion on biological matters is no better than yours.

Fiona,

About Jason Gilder you also wrote (message 260), “He is a computer scientist.” The first statement is false, and the second is at best misleading. His Ph.D. comes from the computer science and engineering department at Wright State University under the supervision of Dr. Michael Raymer. And yet his research was chiefly directed by Dan Krane, who is a biologist. Drs. Krane and Raymer coauthored a textbook on bioinformatics
http://birg.cs.wright.edu/textbook
Thus he has training in both biology and computer science.

 

[TellyKNeasuss]

IMO, the circumstantial evidence against Scott Peterson far outweighs that against Amanda or Rafaelle. Not only did he have a strong and clear motive for killing his wife, he was even recorded telling a woman that Laci was dead before she was even known to be missing.

What was the date that the medical examiner's report was completed? What was the date on which Amanda told one of Meredith's friends that Meredith had bled to death?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

There is one thing, which is beyond my understanding:

Raffaele Sollecito, at the time of the crime 23 years old, well educated, with well educated and wealthy background, nearly completed computer-ingineer,
is not able stand up in court and declare his innocence and fight for it as a man!!

Instead of doing so he was hiding himself behind his (first-class) lawyers.
And beeing Italian he cannot even claim to be a victim of bias.

Any plausible comments for this?

I agree - but really if you think about it, both Amanda and himself could not both take the stand without doing major damage to themselves. I'm guessing they thought Amanda was the better talker and actor, and maybe less likely to break down.

What I really can't see, is how a 23 year old man, who took kickboxing for several years and weight trained in a gym, could not kick down Meredith's door, when I'm positive, my 13 year old son, who also takes kickboxing could do it. I would like to see a picture of Filomena's boyfriend that did kick down the door.