How Big is the Holodomor Denial movement?

Paradox74

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_of_the_Holodomor

I'm familiar with the Holocaust Denial movement but not so much with this one. I'm reading that it's mostly concentrated in Eastern Europe (due to the numerous references in the Cyrillic languages) and was, unsuccessfuly, promoted by a few Western individuals and the American Communist Party.

In comparison, and after a quick search on Amazon.com, the Holocaust "Revisionists" have more literature than their Holodomor Denier relatives. Heck, there's barely any books that focuses on the Holodomor Holocaust to begin with.

Are there any skeptic sites that deal with this subject or is it too small to be dealt with?
 
I've never heard of the denial, although it sounds like something that would appeal to a lot of Russians.

ETA: This is a first. I visit a wikipedia page for something I'd never heard of, and I've personally seen both monuments pictured in it.
 
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While I heard of the "famine" I'd never heard of anyone outside the Politboro denying that it took place. I'm not surprised though. The Soviets were not famous for their forthcoming nature, and those who are in power now are basically cut from that same cloth...just with fabric softener added.
 
Basically, it is sort of a extreme left wing answer to Holocaust Denial. BOth are,in the end, driven by political ideology.
Note how like the Neo Nazis are the heart and soul of Holocaust Denial, hard line unrepentent Communists are the heart and soul of the Holomar denial movement.
A lot of the same people also try to downplay the Purges,and the horrors of the Gulag.
Yeah,it has not reached the level of presence that the Holocaust deniers have, but give it time......
 
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Not only have I never herad of Holodomor Denial, but I have never heard of the Holodomor. :boggled:
 
Not only have I never herad of Holodomor Denial, but I have never heard of the Holodomor. :boggled:

Artificial famine in Ukraine in 1932-33 that probably killed more Ukrainians than the war a decade later. It is believed the goal was to subdue the resistive Ukraine.

McHrozni
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_of_the_Holodomor

I'm familiar with the Holocaust Denial movement but not so much with this one. I'm reading that it's mostly concentrated in Eastern Europe (due to the numerous references in the Cyrillic languages) and was, unsuccessfuly, promoted by a few Western individuals and the American Communist Party.

In comparison, and after a quick search on Amazon.com, the Holocaust "Revisionists" have more literature than their Holodomor Denier relatives. Heck, there's barely any books that focuses on the Holodomor Holocaust to begin with.

Are there any skeptic sites that deal with this subject or is it too small to be dealt with?

The scale and extent of Stalinist crimes have been the subject of academic debate dating back to the 1980s, i.e. before the end of the Cold War and the opening up of Soviet archives, a debate which persisted after 1991

You can find a lot of relevant articles by people like Robert Conquest and Stephen Wheatcroft here
http://sovietinfo.tripod.com/

There are no 'skeptic sites' dealing with the issue but there is quite a lot of polemical material on a site called Art Ukraine, including reprints of articles and pieces by critics of the famine-genocide argument, such as Mark Tauger
http://www.artukraine.com/famineart/tauger.htm


Note: there is a genuine academic debate around the 1932-33 famine, that has to be distinguished from simple politicised famine denial, although both sides have instrumentalised, used and abused academic scholarship. Robert Conquest is attacked incessantly by those who might be called Holodomor deniers, but he is also criticised by historians such as Stephen Wheatcroft, in a more reasoned tone, although the polemics have got quite heated on occasion.

In Russia today, there is a fairly substantial movement of publicists and writers, including a few academics, who deny or soft-pedal Stalinist crimes. These include writers who deny that Katyn was carried out by the NKVD and still blame the Germans.

There is a quite interesting discussion of some of the recent pamphlet literature produced by Holodomor deniers in the former Soviet Union - including works by Ukrainian and Belorussian authors - in an article surveying recent literature on the Holodomor as a whole.
http://www.ukrainianstudies.uottawa.ca/pdf/UKL445.pdf
(this reproduces an article from the recently established journal of Holodomor Studies.) The key passages are on pp.21-22 of the PDF

The Library of Congress has now created a separate bibliographic category for Holodomor denial, which so far has six titles including Tottle's book, the others are all from 2006-2009 and written in Russian, even if some have been published in Ukraine.

A good example would be this work, which the aforementioned article describes as follows


Sigizmund Mironin’s
“Golodomor” na Rusi [28] (The Holodomor in Rus) appears to be a sequel to his earlier volume Stalinskii poriadok (Stalin’s order). While both books declare the Holodomor a nationalist project, “Golodomor” na Rusi attributes the cause of the famine across the entire Soviet Union to the chaotic period of the New Economic Policy of the 1920s rather than to Stalin’s intent on killing anyone. His earlier volume seeks to whitewash the entire Stalin era by dispelling several of the “myths.” Chapter titles include: The myth of the “Holodomor" of 1932-1933 – The myth of “The Great Terror” 1937-1938 – The myth of “genocide” of the deported
peoples – The myth of the Leningrad Affair – The myth of Stalin’s anti-Semitism (The Doctor’s Affair and the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee) – The myth of “Stalin’s paranoia” in the latter years of his life. Cleary, the Holodomor is but another issue to be dealt with in the process of historical revisionism.

The last point is crucial: Russian historical revisionists do exist, and in much larger numbers than the six titles classified as 'Holodomor denial' might suggest. The main form of historical revisionism is really to produce hagiographies of Stalin, extolling his positive achievements while ignoring or denying that he might have done anything wrong. They engage in multiple denials or minimisations, so the distinctiveness of Holodomor denial is not as clear cut as with Holocaust denial, because the Russian revisionists have not decided that only one Stalinist crime matters, whereas Nazi apologists long ago decided to ignore all other Nazi crimes and concentrate solely on the Holocaust.

Russian historical revisionists also overlap with the CT milieu in Russia. Someone like Yuri Mukhin churns out dozens of books (often only pamphlets) on a variety of related topics, peddling multiple denials and CTs. Indeed, Mukhin and some other Russian historical revisionists are also Holocaust deniers.​

 
Russian historical revisionists also overlap with the CT milieu in Russia. Someone like Yuri Mukhin churns out dozens of books (often only pamphlets) on a variety of related topics, peddling multiple denials and CTs. Indeed, Mukhin and some other Russian historical revisionists are also Holocaust deniers.[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/LEFT]



In a country where this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Chronology_(Fomenko)

gets more than token support I'm not surprised.
 
In a country where this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Chronology_(Fomenko)

gets more than token support I'm not surprised.

I was recently in Moscow and went into one of the largest bookstores in the capital; there was a raised shelf-case - thus about half the size of a floor-based one - dedicated entirely to Fomenko and the new chronology.

The history section was a bizarre mixture of hagiographies of Stalin and the works of critical academics, both Russian and Western, while the military section was similarly peppered with revisionist tripe alongside scholarly works.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_of_the_Holodomor

I'm familiar with the Holocaust Denial movement but not so much with this one. I'm reading that it's mostly concentrated in Eastern Europe (due to the numerous references in the Cyrillic languages) and was, unsuccessfuly, promoted by a few Western individuals and the American Communist Party.

We had one come here a few years back. I'll see if I can locate the thread.
 
It is interresting. When i learnt in school about the holodomor, it was pushed as a consequence of the bad agricole, economical politics and natural problem. Not on systematic intentional genocide. Now I learn thanks to this thread this has changed to be officially a genocide. I would like to know if our "liberal" left radical history professor had a hand in chosing a specific book....
 
The main reason that I'm introducing Holomodor Denial to this forum is this:

To try to gain the awareness of my fellow skeptics about this subject so that we are better prepared for the time when this pseudohistory will make it to the mainstream public of the west.

There's only one book on amazon.com that focuses on the Holomodor and most of the Denial resources about the Holomodor are in Russian or Ukranian. We don't have much to start with but, at least we know a little bit about it.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_of_the_Holodomor

I'm familiar with the Holocaust Denial movement but not so much with this one. I'm reading that it's mostly concentrated in Eastern Europe (due to the numerous references in the Cyrillic languages) and was, unsuccessfuly, promoted by a few Western individuals and the American Communist Party.

In comparison, and after a quick search on Amazon.com, the Holocaust "Revisionists" have more literature than their Holodomor Denier relatives. Heck, there's barely any books that focuses on the Holodomor Holocaust to begin with.

Are there any skeptic sites that deal with this subject or is it too small to be dealt with?

Here
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
 
It is interresting. When i learnt in school about the holodomor, it was pushed as a consequence of the bad agricole, economical politics and natural problem. Not on systematic intentional genocide. Now I learn thanks to this thread this has changed to be officially a genocide. I would like to know if our "liberal" left radical history professor had a hand in chosing a specific book....

Most scholars in the West would not label the Ukrainian famine as a 'systematic intentional genocide', for the simple reason that other regions of the USSR, notably Kazakhstan and the North Caucasus region of the RSFSR, were also heavily hit by famine in those years. Thus the degree to which Ukraine was specifically targeted is highly debatable.

There is much more widespread agreement that Stalin's decisionmaking and Soviet policies exacerbated the effects of the famine, which came hot on the heels of collectivisation and 'dekulakisation' from 1929 onwards, so that when the harvest failed, decisions to continue exporting grain in order to earn hard currency to pay for machine tools needed for the first five year plan, must be deemed rather dubious to say the least.

This view stands in contrast to the 'lalala-can't-hear-you' denial of certain western journalists in the 1930s and the efforts of some on the left to avoid the subject entirely, or to engage in denialism and negationism (like Tottle).

On the other side of the political spectrum, Western conservatives have certainly tended to embrace higher death tolls, greater degrees of intentionality on the part of Stalin, and to endorse the Ukrainian emigre interpretation that the famine was a deliberate, calculated attempt to destroy the Ukrainian nation.

It's also worth bearing in mind that if we compare with the Irish potato famine, although one can find plenty of evidence for anti-Irish sentiment and a degree of deliberate refusal to carry out famine relief motivated by the ideology of laisser-faire liberalism, and although the potato famine had a seismic impact on Ireland, essentially no scholars of Irish history would label the famine as genocide.
 
was there a massive famine caused by stupid Soviet farm policies?

yes.

was it particular to Ukraine? it does not appear to be.

was it an attempt at genocide of the population of Ukraine? doesn't appear that way.

i have yet to see evidence of a special intention to starve the citizens of Ukraine. does that make me a denier?

nope....cause I acknowledged the deaths and starvation and the agrarian policies that killed soo many.
 
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Not only have I never herad of Holodomor Denial, but I have never heard of the Holodomor. :boggled:

Neithe had I - not by that name, anyway. Perhaps this would account for the apparently small size of the denier movement, at least outside of the USSR. Why deny something that so few people have even heard of?
 
there was a large Soviet effort to deny the famine, but this was 60 years ago.

If it was a Soviet effort to deny the famine they were ably abetted by Western journalists and intellectuals such as Walter Duranty and George Bernhard Shaw.

Sadly some fascist types who deny the Holocaust have championed their own version of the Holodomor. Their belief seems to be, "There never was a Holocaust of Christians killing Jews but there was a Holocaust - the Ukranian famine - of Jews killing Christians."

Needless to say such views are extremely out of synch with reality.

As has been said, there does seem to be a legitimate debate about whether or not it was a planned act of genocide or a completely disastrous application of a hopelessly flawed and harebrained reordering of society. Either way Stalin can and should be seen as culpable.

Does anyone know if some of the Soviet archives on this issue are still locked up?
 

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