Obama's Katrina!

[leftysergeant]

It's like nobody here has ever heard of the concept of "reparations". Everybody agreed that the Axis was responsible for invading Western Europe in WWII. And yet, strangely enough, nobody wasted a lot of time saying "well, it's Germany's fault, let them fix it".
They did what needed to be done at the time, and made Germany accountable later.

What a great idea of how to handle this situation. Sieze all of BP's assets and and throw all the executives in jail and use their corporate and personal assets to pay the clean-up workers, just like we did the Nazi leadership and the war profiteers.

 

[BeAChooser]

http://blog.al.com/live/2010/06/feds_refuse_to_provide_spill_r.html

A month ago, as BP struggled to contain an oil spill that it estimated at 200,000 gallons a day, the Press-Register reported that the company's federal permit documents stated that it could handle a spill of 12.6 million gallons a day.

BP's documents also said that it could skim 17 million gallons of oil a day; thus far it has skimmed just 2 million gallons in seven weeks.

The documents -- BP's Regional Oil Spill Response Plan -- are riddled with inaccurate claims and errors, including an online address for an equipment supplier that instead links to an unrelated Japanese website.

In May, the newspaper asked the Department of Interior and the U.S. Minerals Management Service for the response plans of the five major companies drilling in the Gulf of Mexico, arguing that the public had an immediate need to know whether permits for other deepwater wells had been granted based on similarly flawed claims.

Neither federal agency would supply the plans without a Freedom of Information Act request, which the newspaper then filed.

… snip …

On June 8, federal officials denied the newspaper's request, stating that the agency did not see "an urgency to inform the public."

The newspaper, meanwhile, shared its original findings regarding BP's Regional Oil Spill Response Plan with two members of the U.S. House of Representatives' Energy and Commerce Committee.

The committee then obtained the spill response plans from the Department of Interior. That committee has since begun hearings on the spill.

Rep. Ed Markey, D-Mass., has said that the plans for Chevron, ConocoPhillips, Shell Offshore Inc., and ExxonMobil were identical to the BP plan that the Press-Register reviewed. All were produced by same Houston-based company, and all contained similar outdated or incorrect information.

Is BP really 100% culpable or doesn't the government, and particularly the Obama administration, share some responsibility for this? Afterall, what was the purpose of MMS? What was their job? If it wasn't to insure that the plans were adequate (and quite obviously they weren't), then perhaps we don't need an MMS at all. The agency is a waste of money. Why not just fire everybody at MMS and let the courts decide now and in the future issues of culpability and damages with no limits. THEN, these big oil companies (who by the way have been giving millions of dollars to politicians on both sides) might actually feel the need to do things properly. Because obviously under this and past administrations, they haven't. Well, at least under this one for sure.

 

[joobz]

Is BP really 100% culpable or doesn't the government, and particularly the Obama administration, share some responsibility for this? Afterall, what was the purpose of MMS? What was their job? If it wasn't to insure that the plans were adequate (and quite obviously they weren't), then perhaps we don't need an MMS at all. The agency is a waste of money. Why not just fire everybody at MMS and let the courts decide now and in the future issues of culpability and damages with no limits. THEN, these big oil companies (who by the way have been giving millions of dollars to politicians on both sides) might actually feel the need to do things properly. Because obviously under this and past administrations, they haven't. Well, at least under this one for sure.

BAC, you're preaching to the Choir.

I completely agree with you. Free markets are completely unable to self regulate. BP has demonstrated that quite nicely. Effective government oversight is needed. And the government is responsible for failing to provide this oversight.

As a nation, we cannot allow companies to run rampant as they so clearly have.

 

[leftysergeant]

Is BP really 100% culpable or doesn't the government, and particularly the Obama administration, share some responsibility for this? Afterall, what was the purpose of MMS? What was their job? If it wasn't to insure that the plans were adequate (and quite obviously they weren't), then perhaps we don't need an MMS at all.

But we do need the avency. We just need to throw the Shrub's people to the sewage treament facilty.

The agency is a waste of money. Why not just fire everybody at MMS and let the courts decide now and in the future issues of culpability and damages with no limits.

Because the courts are topop corruptible, and the current SCOTUS is one of most corrupt in my life time. BP would SO love your solution.

THEN, these big oil companies (who by the way have been giving millions of dollars to politicians on both sides) might actually feel the need to do things properly.

Not bloody likely, as it snads right now. Because obviously under this and past administrations, they haven't.

Well, at least under this one for sure.

Because they have not had time to purge the Shrub's trash from the agency.

 

[BeAChooser]

Free markets are completely unable to self regulate.

LOL! The only entity that has time and again demonstrated a complete inability to self-regulate ... is the government.

But you want to make it bigger.

 

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

LOL! The only entity that has time and again demonstrated a complete inability to self-regulate ... is the government.

But you want to make it bigger.

You seem to be giving conflicting viewpoints here. Blaming the goverment for failure to regulate while asserting that the free market can self-regulate. So why don't they? If government regulatory agencies aren't regulating wouldn't that be seen as a positive for your side? I mean, in the presence of little or no regulation from regulatory agencies wouldn't the free market become even more prosperous and we'd see the ability of the free-market to self-regulate?

 

[thaiboxerken]

I think BAC has the same problem that the uber-religious people do.

 

[AlBell]

"effective government oversight"

How many oxymorons can we make out of that bit of nonsense?

 

[BeAChooser]

while asserting that the free market can self-regulate

Where have I done that? I don't believe I ever have suggested that on any thread on this forum. And certainly not on this one. Some regulation of free-market entities is necessary. But if the MMS isn't doing it's job, aren't we just wasting money on it? If the government cap on damages and perceived approval of less than adequate plans by the government are encouraging companies like BP to engage in unsound, environomentally risky operations, wouldn't we be better off eliminating those caps and the defense in court offered by shoddy government oversight, and just rely on the courts and our people to wisely and severely punish transgressors. Rather than relying on politicians who line their pockets year after year with money from these companies and who then give waivers on important oversight regulations to the companies? Especially politicians who get into power promising *change*?

 

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

Ahh, good enough for me. We agree on something.

 

[BeAChooser]

I think BAC has the same problem that the uber-religious people do.

You need to be more specific. What problem would that be?

I only ask since you apparently feel the need to attack me rather than actually defend Obama from my charges.

 

[BeAChooser]

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/p...-drilling-is-_absolutely-safe__-96603724.html

Who told Obama drilling is 'absolutely safe'?

(crickets)

 

[thaiboxerken]

You need to be more specific. What problem would that be?

Saying one thing, then saying something that contradicts your first saying, and then saying you never contradicted yourself.

 

[leftysergeant]

Where have I done that? I don't believe I ever have suggested that on any thread on this forum. And certainly not on this one. Some regulation of free-market entities is necessary. But if the MMS isn't doing it's job, aren't we just wasting money on it?

What we spent on it under the Shrub was wasted. If we get rid of the worhtless slugs he hired, it might actually work for a change. Obama has started that by splitting it into two agencies.

If the government cap on damages and perceived approval of less than adequate plans by the government are encouraging companies like BP to engage in unsound, environomentally risky operations, wouldn't we be better off eliminating those caps and the defense in court offered by shoddy government oversight, and just rely on the courts and our people to wisely and severely punish transgressors.

Legislation is pending to remove the cap and the courts are not adequate to even settle with Alaska over the Valdez disaster. They actually screwed Alaska on that one.[/QUOTE]

 

[BeAChooser]

Saying one thing, then saying something that contradicts your first saying, and then saying you never contradicted yourself.

Well you're going to have to give us a specific example. Links, post #s, quotes, etc. Because I think you're spouting hot air ... which is something that you seem to do a lot. For example, you claimed in one thread (why I think it was this one! ) that "They did controlled burns of oil, but with that much oil, it didn't do much." Which was nothing less than a lie since multiple government sources stated the controlled burns were very successful.

 

[thaiboxerken]

You really think we can burn the oil at a faster rate than it's coming out of the well?

 

[BeAChooser]

Oh my … the NYTimes doubting yet another claim of Obama:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/19/science/earth/19enviro.html

From the Oval Office the other night, President Obama called the oil leak in the Gulf of Mexico “the worst environmental disaster America has ever faced.” Senior people in the government have echoed that language.

… snip …

But is the description accurate?

Scholars of environmental history, while expressing sympathy for the people of the gulf, say the assertion is debatable. They offer an intimidating list of disasters to consider: floods caused by human negligence, the destruction of forests across the entire continent and the near-extermination of the American bison.

“The White House is ignoring all the shades and complexities here to make a dramatic point,” said Donald E. Worster, an environmental historian at the University of Kansas and a visiting scholar at Yale.

… snip …

Still, for sheer disruption to human lives, several of them could think of no environmental problem in American history quite equaling the calamity known as the Dust Bowl.

… snip …

Among sudden events, the Johnstown Flood might be a candidate for worst environmental disaster. On May 31, 1889, heavy rains caused a poorly maintained dam to burst in southwestern Pennsylvania, sending a wall of water 14 miles downriver to the town of Johnstown. About 2,200 people were killed in one of the worst tolls in the nation’s history.

… snip …

Perhaps the destruction of the native forests of North America, which took hundreds of years, should be counted as the nation’s largest environmental calamity. The slaughtering of millions of bison on the Great Plains might qualify.

… snip …

Oil spills, too, seem to be judged more by their effect on people than on the environment. Consider the Lakeview Gusher, which was almost certainly a worse oil spill, by volume, than the one continuing in the gulf.

… snip …

It continued spewing huge quantities of oil for 18 months. The version of events accepted by the State of California puts the flow rate near 100,000 barrels a day at times. “It’s the granddaddy of all gushers,” said Pete Gianopulos, an amateur historian in the area.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Wait.. the "Liberal" press is actually having criticisms of Obama?! Tell me it isn't so! I thought the mainstream media were all just shills.

 

[theprestige]

Yes, very apt analogy.

Remind me again, how many billions of dollars in profits did Germany earn in the financial quarter previous to the end of the war? And what specialized knowledge did Germany have to fix the problems that needed fixing?

If the cleanup effort needs more resources right now, then one of three things needs to happen:

• BP needs to voluntarily dedicate more resources to cleanup right now.
• The government needs to compel BP to dedicate more resources right now.
• The government needs to dedicate its own resources right now, and sue BP for reparations later (or concurrently, but you get the point).

If this spill isn't such a big problem that it needs more resources right now, can somebody please explain to me what all the fuss is about? Is this, or is this not, a disaster of epic proportions, that needs to be cleaned up as soon as possible, by any means necessary?

ETA: I mean, you seem to be implying that even if the government could do more to clean up the spill, they shouldn't because cleanup is BP's responsibility; and even if BP is unwilling or unable to prevent the spill from harming people and the environment on a grand scale, the government should not step in, because it's BP's responsibility. Is that what you meant to imply?

 

[Lurker]

Let's see.

(...)

I am just trying to get your opinion on something and have used a variety of ways to see if that is so. I admit I initially misinterpreted something you said and ascribed a position to you.

Now, I am just wondering if you actually hold that position or not. It is a simple question, my friend. Here, let me repeat it again:

Do you think Hannity, O'Reilly, Limbaugh (and others) are right or wrong when the say that the reason we are deepwater drilling is because environmentalists have forced them into deep water by not allowing drilling on land or in shallower coastal waters.

I humbly await your response. Note, this is not a strawman, it is just asking your opinion.