Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[s_pepys]

hey guys

Reports in the daily mirror today about Mafia mans brother admitting that he is responsible for meredith kerchers murder. Looks a bit vague at the moment but may provide a welcome new subject to this thread. Whats everyones thoughts on this "new Development"?

lxxx

 

[s_pepys]

oh dear

note to self: must read before typing in future.

lxxx

 

[Bob001]

Building codes do not allow front door hardware where you need a key to exit the house. Exit doors must have hardware that does not require special tools (ie. keys) or knowledge to open them. Thumbturns and similar only.

Not in the U.S. Don't know about Italy.
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

 

[katy_did]

Well, this would be highly relevant information IF TRUE. But I suspect that it is false.

It was the spring-loaded latch mechanism in the door that was faulty, the mechanism that keeps the door securely closed when the lock is not locked. (The lock mechanism proper was NOT faulty!) So to keep the door securely closed it was required to lock the door. Fine. But from the inside---on all front door locks I've seen---no key is required to lock/unlock the door. Instead, for convenience, there is a small lever or knob used to "throw the bolt" into the locked position.

Yes, it seems that they locked the door because the closing mechanism didn't work, as a substitute for it. I think it's been confirmed on the thread that it's not unusual for a front door to be locked with a key from both inside and out, but it's also been emphasized a lot that this particular front door needed to be "locked with a key" to keep it closed - a phrase I don't think would be used if a key were only needed from the outside (if that were the case I think they'd just say it "needed to be kept locked"). Amanda's e-mail and her court testimony both state the door needed to be "locked with a key", as do Micheli and Massei's reports. I've posted these quotes before, but since it was waaaay back in the thread I'll re-post some of them. From Amanda's e-mail:

here's the thing about the door to our house: its broken, in such a way that you have to use the keys to keep it closed. if we dont have the door locked, it is really easy for the wind to blow the door open, and so, my roommates and i always have the door locked unless we are running really quickley to bring the garbage out or to get something from the neighbors who live below us.

From her court testimony:

LG: Precisely, did this door have a defect? What was the problem?

AK: It was defective, and if you didn't close it with the key, the door opened
by itself. You couldn't just shut it, the wind would open it.

And from Massei's report:

Tutte e quattro le ragazze avevano le chiavi del portone della casa che era un po' difettoso: per chiuderlo era infatti necessario usare la chiave.

"All the four girls had keys to the front door of the house, which was a little defective: in order to close it, it was in fact necessary to use the key". As I said, I don't think this would be emphasized quite so strongly if they just needed to lock it to keep it closed, and that they could have done so without using the key. Micheli also speculates at one point that one reason why Rudy may not have immediately left the house when Meredith got home (in the lone burglar scenario) is that he may have been 'locked in'. All of this does seem to suggest that the door was locked with a key from both sides, and that therefore anyone exiting the house would also have needed a key, as is suggested in Oggi.

 

[katy_did]

I do need a key to lock/unlock my front door from the inside, and I have done in every house I've lived in (in the UK).

Yes, I don't think it's at all unusual. Although the current house I'm living in does have a self-locking front door, my last two houses (both share houses in Melbourne, to demonstrate some sort of world-wide pattern!) have needed a key to lock both front and back doors from the inside. I stayed in a relative's house last week where that was the case too. I doubt that kind of door is any less common in Italy.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

To reiterate Fine's question more directly.

Do you or Charlie have photos of the front door?

It is fairly easy to determine if there is a thumb-turn on the inside side of the door or if it is indeed a double deadbolt.

Those Spheron-VR files ought to contain something which would settle the question if nothing else does.

We have photos. It is a double deadbolt. There is no thumb-turn.

 

[katy_did]

To reiterate Fine's question more directly.

Do you or Charlie have photos of the front door?

It is fairly easy to determine if there is a thumb-turn on the inside side of the door or if it is indeed a double deadbolt.

Those Spheron-VR files ought to contain something which would settle the question if nothing else does.

Is there any crime scene footage that would show this? I recall reading that the locks were replaced after the murder, so current photos of the house may not be any good. One problem is that the front door is set in a bit of an alcove, so they would need to have deliberately filmed it or taken photographs of it.

It seems to me that, if a key was used to lock the door from inside, this is something the defence should have picked up on before now (and certainly that the police should have done so during the investigation), since it's quite an important detail. If the door could be opened without a key, that would mean the main reason for taking Meredith's keys was in order to lock the bedroom door, which leaves open the question of who took them. If a key was needed to exit the house, on the other hand, that would suggest the keys were taken primarily for that purpose, and the bedroom door was locked opportunistically - which would of course tend to point towards a non-resident of the house.

ETA: Thanks for the above confirmation, Bruce.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Only, Oggi is not a "glossy and gossipy Italian women's magazine". It's a fairly well-respected news and features magazine - covering politics, culture and society as well as lifestyle. Apparently, it's famous for its in-depth articles and its editorials:

http://www.mondotimes.com/2/topics/3/news/1/17417

I wonder where and why the idea arose that Oggi was essentially a gossip rag, with the implication of low editorial values and a focus on non-serious issues...?

You are kidding right?

Here's the cover of the one that contains the latest story: http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?p=47405#p47405

It IS a glossy and gossipy magazine that doesn't have any respect by Italians. It's most commonly found in hairdressers for people to skim through while they wait to get their hair cut. It's a joke.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

apology on 30 November

Ms Knox also told the judge she was sorry for the trouble she had caused Diya “Patrick” Lumumba, a Congolese bar owner for whom she worked part time, by falsely claiming that he had had sex with Ms Kercher and murdered her in her bedroom, and that she had heard her flatmate’s screams from the kitchen.
The American stuident, who appeared in court wearing brown trousers and a sweatshirt, said: “I am sorry for Patrick and for the whole situation.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2974731.ece

Whether the apology was to Patrick or to the court about Patrick is the best example of a distinction without a difference that I have heard in some time.

 

[Amazer]

Ms Knox also told the judge she was sorry for the trouble she had caused Diya “Patrick” Lumumba, a Congolese bar owner for whom she worked part time, by falsely claiming that he had had sex with Ms Kercher and murdered her in her bedroom, and that she had heard her flatmate’s screams from the kitchen.
The American stuident, who appeared in court wearing brown trousers and a sweatshirt, said: “I am sorry for Patrick and for the whole situation.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2974731.ece

Whether the apology was to Patrick or to the court about Patrick is the best example of a distinction without a difference that I have heard in some time.

If I were in Patrick's shoes I wouldn't have considered that an apology, not by a long shot.

 

[katy_did]

I've thought before about the whole key situation. I too believe that the way the house was found is consistent with Guede as lone attacker, but for perhaps slightly different reasons:

Suppose that Guede did arrive alone at the house that evening, and that Meredith did let him in - using her set of keys to unlock the front door. She'd have almost certainly locked the front door again behind her, once Guede was inside the house.

So, suppose Guede then murdered Meredith (as the culmination of whatever preamble might have occurred). Suppose that he then went to clean blood off his hands in the bathroom, staged a break-in to suggest forced entry by a stranger, and made to leave via the front door. Except, the door was now locked: leaving would be impossible without a key.

Suppose that Guede therefore returned to Meredith's room - primarily to retrieve her set of keys in order to unlock the front door. While he rifled through her handbag (leaving mixed DNA), he found Meredith's complete set of house keys, and he also stole the money/cards that were in there and her two cellphones. He then noticed that since there was more than one key on the keyring, one of the keys was most likely the key to Meredith's bedroom door. Suppose therefore that he then spontaneously decided to take advantage of adding an additional barrier to the discovery of Meredith's body, and locked her bedroom door behind him as he left.

Now, suppose that Guede reached the front door, and unlocked it using the key from Meredith's keyring. Guede wouldn't probably have known the house (or its occupants) well enougn to know that the front door wouldn't stay shut unless it was locked shut. After all, most front doors automatically shut firm when pulled closed, and most also lock automatically in some was as well.

So, I think it would be perfectly logical for Guede to unlock the front door (with him perhaps assuming that it had been "double-locked" for extra security), then to exit quickly to the driveway. I would be pretty certain that he'd want to avoid lingering outside the front door for any time at all - in case he was spotted by a passer by. Therefore, it makes sense that he would assume that the front door would remain firmly shut (and probably locked to a certain level) once he pulled it shut behind him. He could therefore avoid lingering to put the key in the lock from the outside, and could instead escape quickly into the shadows.

And that could explain AK finding the front door open upon her return the following morning, and her finding Meredith's door locked.

I completely agree about the front door, and in fact said something similar in my earlier post before editing it. As you say, Guede wouldn't have known that the front door was faulty, and therefore wouldn't have realized it would blow open if he didn't lock it. The locking of the bedroom door is a slightly strange fact anyway, no matter who did it, and it makes a lot more sense if it was simply a spontaneous act by someone who took the keys for another reason (because he couldn't leave the house without them) and who decided to take advantage of the fact he had the bedroom door key as well. It might well be that the taking of the cell phones and the wallet was secondary to finding the front door key too (that his main purpose was finding the key, and that the idea to take the other things came only when he saw them in Meredith's bag). That would also make a lot more sense than someone deliberately seeking out things to steal just after having committed a murder. If it turns out Guede really did need the keys to exit the house, all the various facts fit together.

I'd only differ from your scenario in that I think it's probably more likely Guede was already in the house when Meredith arrived home, and that the locked door may have been what prompted the confrontation between them in the first place (perhaps Guede tried to get out, and Meredith heard him and came out to see what was going on; or he found he couldn't leave and searched for another way out, again attracting Meredith's attention). Having said that, I also think there's no reason Meredith couldn't have let him in to use the bathroom, since she was as familiar with him as Amanda was; and that if he was originally there because she let him in, he would have had a reason to make it look as if a complete stranger had broken in rather than someone who'd at least met the inhabitants of the cottage before. So although I don't think the break-in was staged, if it was, I agree that there's no reason Guede couldn't have done it and that things played out as you describe.

 

[LondonJohn]

You are kidding right?

Here's the cover of the one that contains the latest story: http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?p=47405#p47405

It IS a glossy and gossipy magazine that doesn't have any respect by Italians. It's most commonly found in hairdressers for people to skim through while they wait to get their hair cut. It's a joke.

Oggi carries serious and respected current affairs features.

Here, for example, is the amazon.com page for buying a subscription to Oggi:

http://www.amazon.com/Oggi/dp/B00006KR5A

The amazon.com "product description" is as follows:

"The traditional weekly magazine of the Italian family for over 50 years: it features exclusive reports and interviews and columns written by authoritative commentators of modern life and society. Printed in Italian."

Unless amazon.com fancies being taken to task for false description, that sounds pretty much like a magazine with a fairly good reputation to me. It's the most widely-read weekly news/features magazine in Italy (3m circulation), and its readership is mostly in the middle-class and upper middle-class demographic (ABC1 in marketing jargon). It doesn't sound to me like it "doesn't have any respect by Italians".....

And, incidentally, the Oggi Magazine cover featured in the amazon.com page has a feature on Chernobyl 20 years after the nuclear disaster. Oggi has also written exposes of Scientology in Hollywood, and it recently published previously-secret police documents which contested the official view of the 1975 murder of writer /film director / intellectual Pier Paolo Passolini. That doesn't sound much like glossy gossip to me..........

Oh, and I seem to recall that both Paris Match (France) and Stern (Germany) often feature photographs of models or celebrities on their front covers, yet both have established reputations for high-quality investigative journalism. It turns out that it is possible for the two genres to co-exist in the same publication......

I think that maybe we can quietly put this matter to bed now?

 

[Danceme]

Not in the U.S. Don't know about Italy.
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

We have photos. It is a double deadbolt. There is no thumb-turn.

I assume in a private home you can install what you like, even a keyed deadbolt. Building codes do not cover private dwellings, but as soon as you operate it as an apartment house then you are then supposed to have a permit and meet Codes. This is the way it is in Canada but I don't know about Italy or the UK. This lock would not be legal here if installed in an apartment house.

If it was keyed from the inside as well then I think the argument for an intruder, Rudy (or other convict of the day), taking Meredith's keys in order to leave the house makes a lot of sense.

Bruce, can you please post the picture of the inside door lock you say you have.

Also, whatever happened to your scaled depiction of a person Rudy's height being able to access the window bolt through the broken glass in Filomena's room. You promised this many, many times and I'd still like to see it, as I'm sure others would as well. Thanks.

 

[RWVBWL]

I guess you didn't know the part where Aviello used to be Raffaele's cell mate.

Greetings Fulcanelli,
I had indeed read some of Mr. Aviello's past. I'll chalk this up to just another strange coincedence. Please note Fulcanelli that I am not the 1 from ABC News, The Daily Mail, Oggi, etc, that is publishing the current story on Mr. Aviello's story. Please write to them if you feel that it has any bearing on the upcoming Appeals Trials of Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox. Heck, maybe Mr. Sollecito's lawyers would luv to know of this too?

Question for you:
What do you know, if anything, about any search for the missing apartment keys?
I ask this because Mr. Aviello said he hid them somewhere on the property of his last residence, so I would think that there would be some kind of search needing to be conducted. Especially since Mr. Aviello said he hid the murder weapon also.

Even Mr. Mignini has spoken up about this:
Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini told ABC News that his office will look into the matter as soon as possible.
"We must always verify what is presented to us," Mignini said.

Link: http://abcnews.go.com/US/Media/mafia-informer-amanda-knox-guilty-brother-killer/story?id=10865516

Get the, what is it, The Flying Squad out there with the metal detectors, "Pronto", please!

Anyways, you seem to find it strange that a guy in prison has come forward to try to free Mr. Sollecito and Miss Knox because he is in prison. And I find it strange that a homeless "troll", (my opinion only, it's a term I use for guys who dig thru garbage containers), came forward to helped convict Mr. Sollecito and Miss Knox.
Strange murder case, huh?

But you know what Fulcanelli, I wonder if there is some truth to what Mr. Aviello states?
For if not, is Prosecutor Mignini going to try and add more years onto his current prison sentence for slander? As he is trying to do to Miss Knox?
Hmmm...
RWVBWL

PS-Oops, 1 last thing Fulcanelli.
I erred when I posted that it was Perugia Shock's Frank Sfarzo who found a knife in the vicinity of the murder scene afterwards. It was acually someone from the "smiling team".
Sorry for that, I'll try to double check my info before I post.
But anyways, here's the link:

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2007/12/surprise.html

The police already were even using a metal detector back then too!
Re-reading this post, I found it kind of interesting that Mr. Sfarzo was already critical of the police's work habits into this particular investigation, way back on Dec. 18, 2007!
Hmmm...

 

[Jungle Jim]

Whether the apology was to Patrick or to the court about Patrick is the best example of a distinction without a difference that I have heard in some time.

I guess your not big on personal responsibility. Patrick was her boss and she knew him fairly well. She even spoke with him a couple of days before implicating him in Meredith's murder. The decent thing to do would be for Amanda to write him a note of apology.

 

[quadraginta]

We have photos. It is a double deadbolt. There is no thumb-turn.

My, that was easy enough. Why let so many posts go by wasted on conjecture when you could have simply said so to begin with? I, for one, am willing to take you at your word, but others may not be as generous. Perhaps you could share some of these photos?

I am led to wonder why Guede, if he was in possession of the keys and required them to exit the apartment, didn't go ahead and lock the door behind him. Why would he take the time to lock Kercher's bedroom door, allegedly to delay suspicion and discovery, and then leave the apartment entrance ajar?

 

[RWVBWL]

I am led to wonder why Guede, if he was in possession of the keys and required them to exit the apartment, didn't go ahead and lock the door behind him. Why would he take the time to lock Kercher's bedroom door, allegedly to delay suspicion and discovery, and then leave the apartment entrance ajar?

Hi quadraginta,
With his sexual desire most likely having been satisfied, it was time for Rudy Guede hit the clubs.
Maybe someone was heard or seen walking or driving in the very near vicinty as he left that the apartment that evening, and Rudy, if he was the last person to leave the apartment, might have gotten abit spooked and split, just closing the door without locking it, and it swung wide open again afterwards.
Hmmm...
RWVBWL

 

[GrouchoMarxist]

snip

I am led to wonder why Guede, if he was in possession of the keys and required them to exit the apartment, didn't go ahead and lock the door behind him. Why would he take the time to lock Kercher's bedroom door, allegedly to delay suspicion and discovery, and then leave the apartment entrance ajar?

Could be he didn't know the door would not stay closed without being locked.

Could be he didn't wish to spend even 1 second locking the door - and risk being seen.

Could be he's not big on personal responsibility.

 

[christianahannah]

I guess your not big on personal responsibility. Patrick was her boss and she knew him fairly well. She even spoke with him a couple of days before implicating him in Meredith's murder. The decent thing to do would be for Amanda to write him a note of apology.

I can see it both ways.

If Amanda apologizes to Patrick in court (which she did) there is an official record of her doing so and media reports would enlighten the public that Amanda had apologized and Patrick was not at fault. If Amanda apologizes to Patrick in writing it would be between her and him and perhaps would not carry the weight the court apology would.

Both apologies would be nice, however, she may have been advised by her attorneys on what the proper course would be as to an apology to Patrick.

 

[el buscador]

How would rudy know that the dead bolt had to be key locked for the door to stay closed and locked? The actual lock on the door was faulty but he wouldn't have known that, so he probably did lock the door when he left, just didn't take the time to also key it. Why expose his presence outside the house any longer than absolutely necessary.