Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Mr.D]

I've brought this up before, but there was a different set of participants then. (And the context was different)

Leaving out this new Oggi magazine article, is there anyone here who thinks Guede is likely or probably innocent of involvement in Kercher's murder? I know the focus of this thread is on Knox (and to a lesser extent Sollecito), but surely both "sides" of the argument have a opinion on this and how his conviction fits in with their position.

And just for completeness I suppose; is there anyone here who thinks Lumbada might be guilty of involvement in Kercher's murder?

 

[RoseMontague]

From the appeal

Google translated...."On March 31, 2010 this defense has carried out investigations defensive Circondariale at the House of Ivrea (TO) Via Vercelli 165, where it appeared the
Mr. AVIELLO Luciano, born in Naples on April 28, 1969 and detained grant at this
Home district, as verbal recording attachment (all.to 1).
He wonders, therefore, that this Court should order the examination of Mr. Aviello
Luciano because of the novelty and occurred Minutes Annex (all.to
1) art. 603 c.p.p."

"In data 31 marzo 2010 questa difesa ha espletato attività di indagine difensiva
presso la Casa Circondariale di Ivrea (TO) in via Vercelli 165, ove è comparso il
sig. AVIELLO Luciano, nato a Napoli il 28 aprile 1969 e detenuto presso codesta
Casa Circondariale, come da verbale con videoregistrazione allegato (all.to 1).
Si chiede, pertanto, che codesta Corte voglia disporre l’esame del sig. Aviello
Luciano in considerazione della novità e del sopravvenuto verbale allegato (all.to
1) ex art. 603 c.p.p."

 

[Danceme]

(snip)

He added: 'My brother told me that he and an Albanian friend of his called Florio were breaking into a house to steal some pictures.
'The house they broke into didn't have any pictures and instead they found the poor English girl who started screaming like mad.
'Antonio stabbed her in the throat then he tried to stifle her screams.
'Meredith defended herself like mad, scratching and hitting out at him.'
Antonio's whereabouts are not known but he is thought to be in Naples.
Knox's lawyer Carlo Dalla Vedova said: 'What Aviello has to say is very important and his statement is part of our appeal. We are asking that he be called and give evidence.
'What he has to say is very significant because the keys to the house were never found and this aspect should at least be investigated and verified.'

There was nothing found under her fingernails

I don't know anything about this door. But if a door has a glass panel in it, it's not at all uncommon to install a deadbolt lock that requires using a key on both sides, so a burglar can't just break the glass and reach for the turn-button. Fire-safety experts usually recommend hiding an emergency key near the door where everyone in the house (who is supposed to be there, anyway) can find it. A standard lock is called single-cylinder; a lock that uses keys on both sides is a double-cylinder (two key cylinders). If Kercher had used a key to lock the door behind a visitor, someone would have had to unlock it with a key to leave. Of course, that might have kept her from escaping a visitor who turned violent, too.

Building codes do not allow front door hardware where you need a key to exit the house. Exit doors must have hardware that does not require special tools (ie. keys) or knowledge to open them. Thumbturns and similar only.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Well, well, well, what have we here? Judge Massei confirming the police knew by November 10th that Amanda regretted her accusation of Patrick? No wonder the guilters on this thread have quietly ceased blaming Amanda for Patrick's extended prison stay.

I will be sure to carry this quote with me into the other blogs, where that accusation is still being made.

And...yet...Amanda never apologized to Patrick. Which, coincidentally, is what was claimed. As far as I can tell, everyone agreed that Amanda had stated her regrets to her mother and the Court, but never to Patrick.

Amanda is, without doubt, responsible for Patrick's stay. She fingered him at which point the Police were required to verify his alibi. That's how it works, Mary. If I claim to have witnessed a murder and finger someone, even if I come back later and claim regret for doing so, the Police still must clear whomever it was I fingered.

It is, without doubt, unfortunate that Mr. Lumumba had to languish in jail for 2 weeks. However, if your angel hadn't fingered him, he would have spent no time in jail at all.

If Amanda had not fingered Mr. Lumumba, would he have had a 2 week jail stay?

 

[christianahannah]

And that could explain AK finding the front door open upon her return the following morning, and her finding Meredith's door locked.

Was there any other evidence which confirmed that the door was open when Amanda arrived at the flat the morning of November 2 other than Amanda saying that it was open?

 

[quadraginta]

We have been researching the front door for quite some time now. I believe that Rudy needed the keys to exit. This would reaffirm my belief that he climbed through Filomena's window. It would also give a better explanation of why he locked the bedroom door. The keys may have given him the idea to lock it.

To reiterate Fine's question more directly.

Do you or Charlie have photos of the front door?

It is fairly easy to determine if there is a thumb-turn on the inside side of the door or if it is indeed a double deadbolt.

Those Spheron-VR files ought to contain something which would settle the question if nothing else does.

 

[GrouchoMarxist]

I've brought this up before, but there was a different set of participants then. (And the context was different)

Leaving out this new Oggi magazine article, is there anyone here who thinks Guede is likely or probably innocent of involvement in Kercher's murder? I know the focus of this thread is on Knox (and to a lesser extent Sollecito), but surely both "sides" of the argument have a opinion on this and how his conviction fits in with their position.

And just for completeness I suppose; is there anyone here who thinks Lumbada might be guilty of involvement in Kercher's murder?

That is what I would like to know about it. On the one hand Guede's guilt has been, seemingly, assumed by both sides in most of the exchanges.

On the other hand, when the subject turned to Guede's past behavior and character, he didn't seem to be all that bad of a guy according to some.

The thing of it is, if he is a murderer/rapist now - he was probably* a pretty bad guy before, I think.

So, I too am wondering where everyone stands on the question of Guede's involvement.


* I actually had to look this word up, it didn't look right no matter how I tried it, still doesn't. Weird.

 

[LondonJohn]

In the UK, it's not true that fire regulations require all external doors to be able to be unlocked from the inside without a key. My mother lives in a house built in around 1985, and both doors into the house (the front door and the back door into the kitchen) require a key to lock and unlock them from inside and out.

I think the regulation probably just applies to hotel rooms, and "public" rooms - but not to private houses. I'd be surprised if the building codes in Italy were much different than in the UK (but I can't be certain of that, of course).

 

[Matthew Best]

So another home experiment.....look at the inside of your front door lock. Do you need a key to lock/unlock it from the inside?

Yes, I do, but I fail to see what the relevance of my front door is to this case.

 

[LondonJohn]

I've brought this up before, but there was a different set of participants then. (And the context was different)

Leaving out this new Oggi magazine article, is there anyone here who thinks Guede is likely or probably innocent of involvement in Kercher's murder? I know the focus of this thread is on Knox (and to a lesser extent Sollecito), but surely both "sides" of the argument have a opinion on this and how his conviction fits in with their position.

And just for completeness I suppose; is there anyone here who thinks Lumbada might be guilty of involvement in Kercher's murder?

Interesting post. I think the most that one could say about Guede is that he was in the murder room either at the time of the murder or shortly afterwards. And it's also fairly conclusive that he sexually violated Meredith in some way (either pre- or post-mortem)*. It's still hard to understand why he would leave her body and flee though. And as for Lumumba**, I think his alibi is currently unimpeachable, so I'd say that his involvement can be ruled out as of right now.

Incidentally, I wonder if either the police or (more likely) the defence have got hold of DNA samples from Luciano Aviello and/or either of his parents (if alive)? From these DNA samples, they'd be able to build at least a partial DNA profile of Luciano Aviello's brother - the man whom Luciano has accused. This partial profile might then be able to be compared with those DNA samples from the murder house which are still unidentified.

* Interestingly, the absence of tears or bruising in or around Meredith's genital area would tend to suggest that this violation happened either while Meredith was very firmly restrained, unconscious, or dead. Or that it was consensual, of course (unlikely, I think, but at least feasible).

** "Lumbada" sounds suspiciously like a Latin American dance

 

[LondonJohn]

PS - just for clarification about my Mother's front door (and back door): If the door is merely pulled closed (whether from the inside or the outside), the door is not locked. In this shut configuration, it can be opened from either the inside or the outside, using a similar twisting handle mechanism to that found on most internal doors.

In order to actually lock the door, it requires a key to be turned in the lock (again, from either inside or outside). Therefore, if the front door is locked shut from the inside, the only way of opening the door is first to insert the key to unlock the door from the inside, then to operate the handle.

 

[Agatha]

So another home experiment.....look at the inside of your front door lock. Do you need a key to lock/unlock it from the inside? (What's yours look like Bruce?)

I do need a key to lock/unlock my front door from the inside, and I have done in every house I've lived in (in the UK).

 

[stilicho]

And...yet...Amanda never apologized to Patrick. Which, coincidentally, is what was claimed. As far as I can tell, everyone agreed that Amanda had stated her regrets to her mother and the Court, but never to Patrick.

I wouldn't put too much stock in the Google translation. We already know there are some serious issues with it. If you recall, it was Google that told Dan O that Meredith was sleeping on the floor in her room.

On the other hand, when the subject turned to Guede's past behavior and character, he didn't seem to be all that bad of a guy according to some.

The thing of it is, if he is a murderer/rapist now - he was probably* a pretty bad guy before, I think.

At issue is whether Guede was a "girl-botherer", a "drifter", a "thief", a "police informant" or any of the other baseless slurs employed by the FOA crowd or the media. He had some documented problems in his past but nothing more or less remarkable than what the other two murderers had in theirs. He smoked dope and partied just like Raffaele and Amanda did.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Don't you think she would have dressed it up a bit if she were lying? Not to mention the fact that she first brought it up within four hours of the occurrence.

katy_did has effectively explained what is wrong with relying on the "word" of the police. If the police couldn't be bothered to tape the interrogation, they shouldn't be allowed to defend it.

What do you mean 'dressed it up a bit'? You don't think she dressed it up enough already?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Rudy's involvement

I've brought this up before, but there was a different set of participants then. (And the context was different)

Leaving out this new Oggi magazine article, is there anyone here who thinks Guede is likely or probably innocent of involvement in Kercher's murder? I know the focus of this thread is on Knox (and to a lesser extent Sollecito), but surely both "sides" of the argument have a opinion on this and how his conviction fits in with their position.

And just for completeness I suppose; is there anyone here who thinks Lumbada might be guilty of involvement in Kercher's murder?

I accept the DNA forensic evidence against Rudy Guede provisionally. The big difference versus RS and AK is that the evidence helped to make him a suspect, as opposed to the forensic evidence against AK and RS, much of which was analyzed after they were in custody. However, none of us have seen the electropherograms themselves, to the best of my knowledge. If the DNA evidence against RG is as flawed as that culled from the kitchen knife and bra clasp, his lawyers did him no favors by not arguing to this effect. I have about the same evaluation of the non-DNA forensic evidence.

The only person who had undisputed sexual knowledge of Ms. Kercher is Mr. Guede. Under those circumstances, the lightness of his sentence and the fact that the prosecutor is not appealing it are puzzling.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Well, well, well, what have we here? Judge Massei confirming the police knew by November 10th that Amanda regretted her accusation of Patrick? No wonder the guilters on this thread have quietly ceased blaming Amanda for Patrick's extended prison stay.

I will be sure to carry this quote with me into the other blogs, where that accusation is still being made.

Why are you pretending you didn't know about this? This is from when Amanda's mother went to see Amanda in prison and Amanda said to her she felr bad about Patrick and told her mother she was going back to her original story and Amanda's mother then declared this to the Anglo press and when questioned about it on the stand as to 'why' she didn't bother going to the police to tell them Amanda was now saying she didn't do it, her excuse was 'Because I don't speak Italian'....this is old, old stuff Mary.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Hi Bob001,
The UK newspapers seem to have a lot to read about involving the murder of Miss Kercher. Here's another interesting story:

Aviello, of Naples, said: 'At the time I was living in Perugia and my brother was staying with me.
'When he came to my house he had a bloodstained jacket on and was carrying a flick knife. He said he had broken into a house and killed a girl and then he had run away.'

He added: 'My brother told me that he and an Albanian friend of his called Florio were breaking into a house to steal some pictures.
'The house they broke into didn't have any pictures and instead they found the poor English girl who started screaming like mad.
'Antonio stabbed her in the throat then he tried to stifle her screams.
'Meredith defended herself like mad, scratching and hitting out at him.'
Antonio's whereabouts are not known but he is thought to be in Naples.
Knox's lawyer Carlo Dalla Vedova said: 'What Aviello has to say is very important and his statement is part of our appeal. We are asking that he be called and give evidence.
'What he has to say is very significant because the keys to the house were never found and this aspect should at least be investigated and verified.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...Meredith-Kercher-claims-Mafia-supergrass.html

I can't wait to read the comments section also!

Anyways, I wonder if there is anyway to show Miss Allesandra Formica photo's of Antonio Aviello or this Florio guy?
I also wonder if the police, or the defense have looked very hard for the missing apartment keys? I have always felt the keys were an overlooked clue. Might it be a good idea to at least try to search for them by using a metal detector in the yard of Mr. Aviello's last residence?
Even Frank Sfarzo of Perugia Shock says that he has looked for the keys and the knife. Gosh, if I recall correctly, Mr. Sfarzo even found a knife, not the murder weapon though, that the police never found in the immediate area surrounding the murder scene afterwards.
More superb police work done there, I suppose!
RWVBWL

I guess you didn't know the part where Aviello used to be Raffaele's cell mate.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Interesting post. I think the most that one could say about Guede is that he was in the murder room either at the time of the murder or shortly afterwards. And it's also fairly conclusive that he sexually violated Meredith in some way (either pre- or post-mortem)*. It's still hard to understand why he would leave her body and flee though. And as for Lumumba**, I think his alibi is currently unimpeachable, so I'd say that his involvement can be ruled out as of right now.

Incidentally, I wonder if either the police or (more likely) the defence have got hold of DNA samples from Luciano Aviello and/or either of his parents (if alive)? From these DNA samples, they'd be able to build at least a partial DNA profile of Luciano Aviello's brother - the man whom Luciano has accused. This partial profile might then be able to be compared with those DNA samples from the murder house which are still unidentified.

* Interestingly, the absence of tears or bruising in or around Meredith's genital area would tend to suggest that this violation happened either while Meredith was very firmly restrained, unconscious, or dead. Or that it was consensual, of course (unlikely, I think, but at least feasible).

** "Lumbada" sounds suspiciously like a Latin American dance

There are no samples waiting to be identified. They CAN'T be identified because they are to partial to be matched to anybody. Besides the fact, they belong to FEMALES. Aviello is a male.

 

[LondonJohn]

[EDIT TO ADD: Oggi is a glossy and gossipy Italian women's magazine.]

///

Only, Oggi is not a "glossy and gossipy Italian women's magazine". It's a fairly well-respected news and features magazine - covering politics, culture and society as well as lifestyle. Apparently, it's famous for its in-depth articles and its editorials:

http://www.mondotimes.com/2/topics/3/news/1/17417

I wonder where and why the idea arose that Oggi was essentially a gossip rag, with the implication of low editorial values and a focus on non-serious issues...?

 

[LondonJohn]

There are no samples waiting to be identified. They CAN'T be identified because they are to partial to be matched to anybody. Besides the fact, they belong to FEMALES. Aviello is a male.

Fair do's. If they all belong to females (which I admit I hadn't known), then any attempt to form a partial DNA profile of Aviello's brother would clearly not be relevant.