Helen Thomas resigns over remarks

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

You can say that about most countries in the world.

Exactly. Might is right when it comes to borders.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

its disgusting.

Would her comments be 'disgusting' if she were talking about members of the LRA or the people displaced by them in Africa going back where they came from?

Seems her comments like hers are only considered disgusting when the people in question parents and/or grandparents had sex somewhere close to where they currently live.

 

[bigjelmapro]

Why do Israelis own the land they are standing on? It seems to me that it is only because other more powerful countries care to grant them ownership over the other groups who contest it that Israel exists in its current state.

Via land purchases and actually winning 3 consecutive wars. These 'more powerful countries' didn't grant anything to the idea and the eventual Jewish state in the beginning (besides contradictory lip-service). British land reforms and immigration policies favored Arabs.

There's nothing fair or deserving about Jewish people having their own state, just as there's nothing fair or deserving about the non-Jewish people around them not having their own state(s). It's just what is - at the moment.

I expect the behaviour of all parties in this dispute to continue to degenerate until one of them kills enough of the others to prove they were right and the others were wrong.

Fill in x for country name. There's nothing really fair or deserving about nation building. Any Western country can atest to that.

 

[DC]

Would her comments be 'disgusting' if she were talking about members of the LRA or the people displaced by them in Africa going back where they came from?

Seems her comments like hers are only considered disgusting when the people in question parents and/or grandparents had sex somewhere close to where they currently live.

Her comments remembered me on my times when i was on counterdemonstrations of Neo Nazis or other racist scum groups.
XXX should go back where they came from, i heard too many times and it always was disgusting.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

Fill in x for country name. There's nothing really fair or deserving about nation building. Any Western country can atest to that.

And in light of this, what's so disgusting about this woman's words that isn't trumped 100 fold by the actions of Israelis and other groups in their nation building endeavours?

Isn't the very act of building a nation state effectively telling those who don't belong to it to go away (or else)?

 

[bigjelmapro]

And in light of this, what's so disgusting about this woman's words that isn't trumped 100 fold by the actions of Israelis and other groups in their nation building endeavours?

Telling Jews to go back to Germany and Poland (which effectively ignores where Jews resided predominantly before Europe) and not balancing this statement by telling Arabs to go back to the Arabian peninsula.

All in all, what Israel did is nation building - Light compared to many other nation building project. Doesn't make it any cleaner or fair, but a strange spectacle getting judged from other Western nations.

Isn't the very act of building a nation state effectively telling those who don't belong to it to go away (or else)?

Depends how you do it.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Black people in the US are Americans, not Africans. They are not occupying other people's homes and land.

The Indians might disagree.

 

[DC]

shouldn't we all go back to Africa?

 

[RhodyDave]

I wasn't aware any immigrants to the US other than the first colonialists 300+ years ago invaded and took over a section of land to make their own country out of it.

Unfortunately, your poor grasp of history is glaringly on display. The Western expansion in the U.S. was not 300+ years ago. The land grab of the mid to late 1800's, the colonization of Hawaii, the expulsion of Native Americans and Mexicans in the Southwest, all are in the recent historical past. You need to become more aware...

 

[RhodyDave]

Given that the current state of Israel would eventually be destroyed by those states around it without the backing of powerful countries such as the USA, I can only imagine that there are some strategic advantages in maintaining the current existence of Israel. Any suggestions for what these advantages may be? What use is the current state of Israel to these other countries?

I think you have it backwards. Without the temperance of the U.S. and the UN, Israel would have already destroyed its hostile neighbors - decades ago in fact. The Israeli army back during the 6 Day War was fully capable of wiping out the entire armies of Egypt, Syria, and Jordan. Without condemnation from the UN, and without support from the U.S., Israel eventually relented. Now with nukes, forget about it; Israel would use them against Iraq and Iran without much provocation.

The U.S. and UN keep Israel from destabilizing the region further. The main interest of the U.S. is in the oil. Once there is no oil, the U.S. will not be protecting the OPEC nations from Israel any longer. Whether Israel's position in this is wrong or right is another debate.

 

[Skeptic]

The Indians might disagree.

You and your obvious facts again.

Of course there are a few differences.

For example, the Jews who came to Palestine bought every grain of land they got until 1948... I somehow don't think American immigrants bothered to do that, now did they?

In 1948, the Jews got some land by war -- and also lost some land by war, such as Hebron and East Jerusalem. Of course that is never, ever, considered to belong to the Jews by those who speak of the "Nakba"... Arab land that fell to the Jews in a war is really still Arab; Jewish land that fell to the Arabs is also really still Arab. How... convenient.

Why did the war start? Because of the Arab rejection of the peace plan and a decision to attack the Jews and thrown them into the sea. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what would have happened if the Jews had lost that war. They would have been butchered to the last baby.

The "Nakba" really means "the result of the failure of Arab attempt to genocide the Jews in 1948". The only thing the Arabs are sorry about concerning 1948 is that their plan to throw the Jews into the sea had failed that time.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

You and your obvious facts again.

Of course there are a few differences.

For example, the Jews who came to Palestine bought every grain of land they got until 1948...

<snip>

Who from? Was there any complaints by other stakeholders at the time about these purchases of land? If so, why were their complaints invalid?

 

[Jekyll's Guest]

Can I just say the "Europeans go home and leave it to the Indians bit" is so Hackneyed it should have horses tied to it, with a little cockney riding on top?

"Hey, you shouldn't do this"

"Oh yeah, well white people have only been in the US for 520 years, go home!"

There is no legitimate native government to hand the country back to. This tribe sat on a bit over here, another had a bit over there, oh those guys over there moved around a lot. Oh yeah, and they liked to have little genocidal wars and steal little bits from each other too.

The only thing Europeans did was use the same tactics, en masse, and far more successfully.

Everyone alive who was born in America is American. Their grandparents were American. Their cats and dogs and sugar gliders are American.

Was there anyone in that part of the Middle East BEFORE the Jews set up their ancient kingdoms? I'd be willing to bet there were. Let's get them on the phone! Free land, enjoy the infrastructure!

 

[GrouchoMarxist]

Black people in the US are Americans, not Africans. They are not occupying other people's homes and land.

The Indians might disagree.

I don't know about Cleveland, but here in Tiger town about 40%-45% of us rent.

Oh, and we are Africans and Americans, but we didn't plan it that way.

 

[dudalb]

Again, people make this jump from Israel to Jews as if somehow they are the same thing and should be regarded as so.

I support the right of Jews to live their lives freely wherever they wish to without oppression. I don't necessarily think that means there is a right to a Jewish state especially if that right is obtained at the expense of the rights of others.

Should being a distinct religion/race entitle you to a state? I think there is a legitimate question there. Do the Mormons have a right to an independent nation within the USA if they want it? Did the Taliban Afghanistan have the right to exist without interference from the US and others?

The right to a nation state is a privilege accorded to all nations by the international community and with it comes responsibilities. I don't think Jews deserve a nation any more or less than anyone else, at the same time I can defend Israel's right to exist as a nation but I struggle with the concept of it being a 'Jewish state' and I see a stong argument that its existence should not be at the expense of the Palestinians.

And what are you going to do with the Five Million Jews in Israel?
All the anti Zionist have never managed to answer this question to my satisfaction.
ANd you seem to be totally ignorant of Jewish History.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

ANd you seem to be totally ignorant of Jewish History.

Rather than just leave it as an ad-hom attack, why not elaborate on what part of Jewish history you think is relevant?

 

[doobiedoright]

It would depend on the context. If Helen had said the Jews are all horrible disgusting people who deserve to be collectively punished for the behavior of some of them, that would be outrageous.

But that isn't what she said. She said it was her belief the UN had no right to 'give' Palestinian land away to Jews to atone for the sins of the Nazis. There is much validity in that belief. Because there was little validity in the suggested solution to the problem does not make the underlying belief invalid.
If you think about it, 70 years of Israel's oppressive response to the problem has proved to be an impractical solution as well.[/QUOTE]

So who told the alleged pals to get out in the first place so they could push the Jews into the sea?
Who then lost said fight and has refused all offers of peace for almost 70 years....you really are losing this battle just like your friends who have lost every battle with said peoples!

 

[doobiedoright]

Why do Israelis own the land they are standing on? It seems to me that it is only because other more powerful countries care to grant them ownership over the other groups who contest it that Israel exists in its current state.

There's nothing fair or deserving about Jewish people having their own state, just as there's nothing fair or deserving about the non-Jewish people around them not having their own state(s). It's just what is - at the moment.

I expect the behaviour of all parties in this dispute to continue to degenerate until one of them kills enough of the others to prove they were right and the others were wrong.

seems I remember reading that a lot of Israelis payed very generous sums of money for their land!

 

[Skeptic]

It's interesting how the Arab plan to kill all the Jews -- oh, I'm sorry, only the "zionists", I mean all the Jews within reach -- is called "disagreeing" with the Jews about whether they deserve a state.

I just disagreed with someone about whether or not they have the right to exist yesterday. The body is buried under the bridge. I did nothing wrong; can you prove someone has a right to exist? Huh? Can you?!

Will your view change if I told you the guy I killed was only a Jew, so hey, no big deal -- it's really just "disagreement" in that case, just like in the case of the Arab "disagreement" about Israel's existence?

 

[Thunder]

It's interesting how the Arab plan to kill all the Jews -- oh, I'm sorry, only the "zionists", I mean all the Jews within reach -- is called "disagreeing" with the Jews about whether they deserve a state.

Um.....isn't that the "Hamas Covenant" plan?

Now its morphed into the "Arab" plan.

Fascinating imagination you have there.

I know more than a few Arabs. None of them wish to kill me.

Go figure.

Helen Thomas' views are no more despicable than believing that Jews who believe in peace with the Arabs are self-hating.