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OOS Collapse Propagation Model

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Bazant offers nothing about collapse initiation in any of his papers except his own personal opinions about what initiated collapse. He discusses many arguments concerning collapse progression, but they cannot be used to distinguish between natural collapse and a CD which exploits structurally weaker seams within a building, such as the OOS regions or a line of bolted column to column connections located along the 98th floor.


Everything Bazant says about the cause of collapse initiation is his own personal opinion presented as fact. The only supposed "proof" is in the "meticulous investigation of unprecedented scope and detail, conducted by S. Shyam Sunder’s team at the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST 2005).

This "proof" depends on many questionable claims by the NIST. The NIST provides the only known "proof" while Dr Bazant just narrates his opinion.

This "proof" of the cause of inward bowing and the claim that perimeter destabilization caused the collapses will be addressed in an upcoming paper.

So to be very clear concerning collapse initiation: NIST supplies the "proof" while Bazant just narrates his opinion.





Basquearch writes: "Major Tom believes CD occurred in NIST's Phase 1, Initial Collapse. Bazant is the wrong venue. The proper venue for Major Tom's CD claims is the NIST report. Analyze that instead."

Collapse initiation and early deformation are certainly the most important places to look. I agree with you that the Bazant papers are the wrong place to look. So when Bazant writes in BLGB:

"Previous analysis of progressive collapse showed that gravity alone suffices to explain the overall collapse of the World Trade Center (WTC) towers. However, it remains to be checked whether the recent allegations of controlled demolition have any scientific merit. The present analysis proves that they do not."

you will agree that this is false. Bazant is not the right venue for studying the central CD questions, though he claims his analysis proves CD didn't happen.


You would agree with me that Bazant cannot expel the accusation of planted explosives by describing collapse dynamics beyond the initial trigger as he claims. It is not the place to look.


We seem to agree with each other that Bazant is not the right venue. BLGB cannot possibly be used to determine "whether the recent allegations of controlled demolition have any scientific merit." When he claims to disprove CD in BLGB, he is wrong.

If you look at the CD theories that were proposed at the time those papers were published the Bazant papers are more than adequate to dismiss them, "missing jolts", "every second floor taken out to allow collapse progression", "freefall speed", "no steel framed building has ever collapsed due to fire" etc etc .All of those CD theories required explosives to assist the collapse in some way. Bazant shows that explosives aren't needed once the collapse is started and so those theories can be dismissed.

You, on the other hand, dismiss all truther CD theories as being wrong and instead promote you own brand of CD utilising weak spots and minimal explosives(or something) followed by natural collapse and therefore conclude that your theory is not countered by Bazant.

Congratulations.

Now all you need to do is present your theory and provide evidence in favour of it showing how your CD method can cause the observed column pull in, how the materials can survive the fires, how the planes were guided to those locations(or whether other locations were similarly wired to blow), why there was no residual traces of explosives or detonators found in the clean up and inspection, why there is no evidence of explosive shock waves causing broken windows, barotrauma etc.

You've got a long road ahead of you but at least you've got your first paragraph done about how Bazant doesn't disprove your CD method.

I can't wait for you to finish :)
 
Bazant offers nothing about collapse initiation in any of his papers except his own personal opinions about what initiated collapse.

What a whopper of a lie.

All of his papers are filled with the justifying equations and properties of steel and accepted engineering used to justify his opinions. Including initiation.

Something that is utterly lacking in anything of yours.

If you think he's wrong, everybody here would love to get a belly laugh from all the ROFLMMFAO that will ensue if you dare to step into that realm, and with the engineering justification similar to what he provides, attempt to refute it.

So please, debunk away.

Dr Bazant gave an unsubstantiated opinion that the early deformation and initial buckling sequence was caused by viscoplastic buckling of heated and overloaded columns in 2001. Only 2 core columns from the WTC1, 2 collapse initiation zones were recovered, so there is no proof that collective viscoplastic buckling of heated and overloaded columns. It is just his opinion but he presents it is fact.

Yes, he was speculating about the initiation as a prelude to explaining how even that in the most favorable to arrest, and also impossible, event of direct, square, axial impact of all the columns after a 1 story drop, there is zero chance of collapse arrest - which most rational people realize was the focus of the paper due to the lack of evidence at that early time.

And of course, once the lack of evidence of high temp steel revealed itself through NIST's annealing studies, he says this in 2008 "The initial speculation that very high temperatures were necessary to explain
collapse must be now revised". IOW, he admits that his speculation - which was devoid of evidence when he made it - isn't the only "no cd" explanation.

This is what professionals do. They admit their errors and show another way - "These effects of heating are further documented by the recent fire tests of Zeng et al.
(2003), which showed that structural steel columns under a sustained load of 50% to 70% of
their cold strength collapse when heated to 250C."

Oops, no opinions there either. It is based on real world engineering facts. He gives the paper that he bases this opinion on, and therein lie the engineering that he bases his statements on.

So you lied again.

Everything Bazant says about the cause of collapse initiation is his own personal opinion presented as fact. The only supposed "proof" is in the "meticulous investigation of unprecedented scope and detail, conducted by S. Shyam Sunder’s team at the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST 2005).

And unlike twoofs, they and Bazant can support their findings with known, accepted engineering facts. This relies heavily on the use of maths and physics, which have no opinion.

So again, you lie.

So when Bazant writes in BLGB:

"Previous analysis of progressive collapse showed that gravity alone suffices to explain the overall collapse of the World Trade Center (WTC) towers. However, it remains to be checked whether the recent allegations of controlled demolition have any scientific merit. The present analysis proves that they do not."

you will agree that this is false.

No. In that part, he's talking about collapse progression, as any rational, sane, and non-agenda driven person with any reading comprehension understands.

He is correct in the part that you carefully quotemine away:"The video record available for the first few seconds of collapse is shown to
agree with the motion history calculated from the differential equation of progressive collapse but,
despite uncertain values of some parameters, it is totally out of range of the free fall hypothesis, on
which these allegations rest."

So this time, you didn't outright lie. Rather, misrepresented the context.
 
I wonder if the numbers supporting other insane claims rise too?

Bigfoot.

Moon landings were a hoax?

Magic bullet?

Etc.

Cuz if they do, then this is proof that insane is incurable, and since the population is growing, then the raw numbers will rise in direct proportion - %age wise - to the increase in raw population numbers.

And of course, since 9/11 twoof is a relatively new insanity when compared to the above examples, it's only logical to expect for them to grow at a faster rate than the other, more "established" tripe.

It's not logical to expect that an insane conspiracy theory would gain ground among engineering professionals in the relevant fields.
 
You, on the other hand, dismiss all truther CD theories as being wrong and instead promote you own brand of CD utilising weak spots and minimal explosives(or something) followed by natural collapse and therefore conclude that your theory is not countered by Bazant.

Obviously, you prefer the truther theories that require huge amounts of explosives.
 
It's not logical to expect that an insane conspiracy theory would gain ground among engineering professionals in the relevant fields.

Electrical engineering, computer software engineering and landscaping engineering are the relevant fields? How so?

Oh you mean amongst "engineers" and architects... got it.

So on a list that claimed to have 1100 when it had 996, and has less than 50 degreed and licensed structural engineers I guess it is growing.

Of course in that group we have mininukes, dew, holographic planes.

How many of them have managed to get just a single peer reviewed engineering refutation of anything that NIST has done again?
 
These truth engineers backing in CD better get working, it has been 8 years and zero papers in a real journal. Maj Tom is writing garbage with super engineering support from a few fringe paranoid conspiracy theorist with the same evidence as Maj Tom; some moronic opinions based on lies, hearsay, and fantasy. CD is worse than beam weapons and nukes when you understand they are willfully ignoring evidence and trying to act like engineers attacking papers which stand on their own. I wish these wannabe engineers would gain some understanding of models and grow up after 8 years of failure. Delusions continue in Major Tom's world of it was CD, an inside job.

No CD Major Tom, no matter how good your paper is at anything, you can't change history and evidence. You are manufacturing delusions for the gullible; What College gave Major Tom his engineering degree?

I can't find any engineers who support the fringe few fantasy delusion pushers (FFFDP). I've only been an engineer since 1974; I have found some kids who support some of the idiotic plots Major Tom supports, but they based their support on nothing but moronic opinions based on lies, hearsay, and fantasy. The same as Major Tom.

Where is the latest draft of trying to back in CD with failed engineering with out trying?
... these 911 truth failed movement cult members are like Bigfoot followers, out there looking for evidence, making up evidence, making footprints in the 911 fantasy world of CD, mumbling Bush did it, as they apologize for UBL and his 19 buddies.
 
Electrical engineering, computer software engineering and landscaping engineering are the relevant fields? How so?

Most electrical engineers don't buy into the truther nonsense either....its a very very small minority...

As an EE.....all I had to hear was "the cell phone calls were impossible at cruising altitude" and I knew these "truthers" didn't know what the heck they were talking about.
 
It's not logical to expect that an insane conspiracy theory would gain ground among engineering professionals in the relevant fields.

Why not?

I'm fairly certain that if one were to take the time, you'd find that there are people in relevant fields that believe in all these hoaxes. IIRC, one of the moon hoax wackos, and he was on a tv debunking special, actually worked in the industry at one point.

This is because he probably has medical issues. Anyone can have medical/mental/psychological issues.

I see no reason to expect that being an engineer excludes one from these maladies.
 
Why not?

I'm fairly certain that if one were to take the time, you'd find that there are people in relevant fields that believe in all these hoaxes. IIRC, one of the moon hoax wackos, and he was on a tv debunking special, actually worked in the industry at one point.

Are you referring to Bill Kaysing? IIRC he was a librarian at Rocketdyne. Not the rocket expert he claimed to be. How untypical. Not.

This is because he probably has medical issues. Anyone can have medical/mental/psychological issues.

I see no reason to expect that being an engineer excludes one from these maladies.

The important thing is that when we study and analyze the evidence these people claim to have and the arguments they put forward we find that, whether they are experts or not, they are dead wrong.
 
Yes, he was speculating about the initiation as a prelude to explaining how even that in the most favorable to arrest, and also impossible, event of direct, square, axial impact of all the columns after a 1 story drop, there is zero chance of collapse arrest - which most rational people realize was the focus of the paper due to the lack of evidence at that early time.

A column to column impact is not necessarily the most favourable scenario for the survival of the building. Suppose all the column ends missed each other. Outside the core, there could be redundant energy to destroy the floors and bring down the perimeter walls, but inside the core, there might not be enough energy to destroy the columns and horizontal beams.
 
A column to column impact is not necessarily the most favourable scenario for the survival of the building. Suppose all the column ends missed each other. Outside the core, there could be redundant energy to destroy the floors and bring down the perimeter walls, but inside the core, there might not be enough energy to destroy the columns and horizontal beams.

My, my. It sounds as if you have a hypothesis.

Let's hear it.

All you need to do is supply support in the form of accepted engineering principles and make your case.

Or are we supposed to accept your word about it?
 
A column to column impact is not necessarily the most favourable scenario for the survival of the building. Suppose all the column ends missed each other. Outside the core, there could be redundant energy to destroy the floors and bring down the perimeter walls, but inside the core, there might not be enough energy to destroy the columns and horizontal beams.

There is no need to "destroy" any columns or beams, merely to break their connections. A lateral force will achieve this better than an axial force.

You can try this yourself with two pieces of wood glued together ....
 
Waitaminute... how the hell's the core supposed to just stand, let alone withstand forces without the lateral bracing from the floors? And on top of that, how the hell are the floor trusses supposed to separate from the core columns without pulling them in a direction they weren't designed to take stress in?
 
A column to column impact is not necessarily the most favourable scenario for the survival of the building. Suppose all the column ends missed each other. Outside the core, there could be redundant energy to destroy the floors and bring down the perimeter walls, but inside the core, there might not be enough energy to destroy the columns and horizontal beams.

Remember that the falling part of the core also has transverse beams, and that it's geometrically impossible for these to miss the transverse beams of the lower part. Remember, also, that the core was never intended to be capable of standing unsupported; all lateral loads on the building were borne by the perimeter columns and associated transverse members. And remember, finally, that significant portions of the core did survive the main collapse, but fell a few seconds later.

Dave
 
Remember that the falling part of the core also has transverse beams, and that it's geometrically impossible for these to miss the transverse beams of the lower part. Remember, also, that the core was never intended to be capable of standing unsupported; all lateral loads on the building were borne by the perimeter columns and associated transverse members. And remember, finally, that significant portions of the core did survive the main collapse, but fell a few seconds later.

Dave

Absolutely. I'm just at a loss as to how someone could seriously propose the stripping of the perimeter columns and the floors yet say that the core would somehow resist damage. It's as if they think the core would stand denuded, like some tree who's branches have been stripped off.
 
Most electrical engineers don't buy into the truther nonsense either....its a very very small minority...

As an EE.....all I had to hear was "the cell phone calls were impossible at cruising altitude" and I knew these "truthers" didn't know what the heck they were talking about.

N2276. Not EE's in general. But on the AE911twoof petition over three quarters are EE's, software engineers and even landscape engineers. That was my point. On the AE911twoof petition.
 
Waitaminute... how the hell's the core supposed to just stand, let alone withstand forces without the lateral bracing from the floors? And on top of that, how the hell are the floor trusses supposed to separate from the core columns without pulling them in a direction they weren't designed to take stress in?

The mind boggles.....
 
N2276. Not EE's in general. But on the AE911twoof petition over three quarters are EE's, software engineers and even landscape engineers. That was my point. On the AE911twoof petition.

Oh I know you weren't implying that...I was just trying to put in a disclaimer for the majority of my fellow EE's....

To be honest....I'm actually embarrassed that there are EE's out there who buy into the truther nonsense....
 
Why not?

I'm fairly certain that if one were to take the time, you'd find that there are people in relevant fields that believe in all these hoaxes. IIRC, one of the moon hoax wackos, and he was on a tv debunking special, actually worked in the industry at one point.

This is because he probably has medical issues. Anyone can have medical/mental/psychological issues.

I see no reason to expect that being an engineer excludes one from these maladies.

All you need to do is say whether you still believe that, in the particular case of the WTC twin towers, the event of a column to column impact would be the most favorable to arrest.
 
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