Helen Thomas resigns over remarks

[Jekyll's Guest]

No serious historian doubts that the bible was composed in Israel, and that there were Jewish kingdoms there. Since this was Skeptic's point, your reply above does not refute him. Instead you just evade the issue.

Ok then: Our holy text was written by Jews living in that area thousands of years ago is still a huge jump to "this is the land of our people."

Everyone is from somewhere originally.

"We're here now, uprooting my nation is utterly insane" I 100% agree with. The land is not hers to give or take. Territory has to be taken or it's keepsies.

"God says this is ours" = nonsense. And 'the bible says we came from here' is meaningless unless it's an off hand way of saying 'God gave it to us.'

I won't be demanding Ireland, Spain or Africa give me the keys and turn out the light on the way out.

Jews took land for themselves and held it, that's all I respect or need to, and anything else is unnecessary fairy tales.

 

[Jekyll's Guest]

And who has done that here?

See my post above.

 

[WildCat]

The bible has multiple cases of blatantly incorrect history contained within it though, so how can we cherry pick?

I could write a book about how Elvis came from Iran, bury it for a couple of thousand years, and maybe future people dressed like Elvis would descend on their cultural homeland?

There is ample historical and archeological evidence that Jews lived in Israel thousands of years ago, to at least Roman times.

And now there's even genealogical evidence that yes, all Jews are in fact one people: http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-jewish-genome-20100604,0,7364243.story?track=rss

 

[WildCat]

See my post above.

So who here is claiming that Israel should exist becaause God said so?

 

[Skeptic]

The bible has multiple cases of blatantly incorrect history contained within it though, so how can we cherry pick?

For the same reason we know Napoleon existed or Carthage existed or WWI was fought, or practically any historical event occurred or historical figure ever lived.

In all those cases, like the stories about the existence of a Jewish kingdom (and unlike the -- say -- story about the existence of the Garden of Eden), there is a lot of independent evidence in its favor.

Not only what the bible says, but what the Jews' enemies say, what the archeological evidence says, what strangers to the area who got in contact with them (E.g., Romans and Greeks) say, what the genetic evidence (about, e.g., the lineage of the Cohanites) says, and so on.

 

[marksman]

The bible has multiple cases of blatantly incorrect history contained within it though, so how can we cherry pick?

Are you saying historians are in disagreement as to whether Jews were living primarily in Israel between approximately 850 BC (possibly earlier) through 60 AD (save for the sixty or so years of the First Exile in the 6th century BC)?

As skeptic stated, although religious nuts in Israel claim domain to the land based on divine provenance, Israel as a nation merely contends that Jews have lived in the region before and have maintained a cohesive identity in part based on the dream of one day returning to this homeland. The accuracy of the Torah is not the issue.

The use of the Torah as evidence that Jews originated in and dwelt for significant periods in the region are. And I did not think there were any reputable scholars who disputed such facts.

 

[Jekyll's Guest]

So who here is claiming that Israel should exist becaause God said so?

'the bible says we came from here' is meaningless unless it's an off hand way of saying 'God gave it to us.'

This.

And now there's even genealogical evidence that yes, all Jews are in fact one people: http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-jewish-genome-20100604,0,7364243.story?track=rss

Isn't that actually shocking and contrary to our modern preference for a melting pot?

 

[Doctor Evil]

Ok then: Our holy text was written by Jews living in that area thousands of years ago is still a huge jump to "this is the land of our people."

Everyone is from somewhere originally.

"We're here now, uprooting my nation is utterly insane" I 100% agree with. The land is not hers to give or take. Territory has to be taken or it's keepsies.

"God says this is ours" = nonsense. And 'the bible says we came from here' is meaningless unless it's an off hand way of saying 'God gave it to us.'

I won't be demanding Ireland, Spain or Africa give me the keys and turn out the light on the way out.

Jews took land for themselves and held it, that's all I respect or need to, and anything else is unnecessary fairy tales.

I am not sure what you are trying to say here. Can you clarify?

What Helen Thomas did was a denial of Jewish history, in several ways. By claiming that the Jews home is in Poland and Germany, she i) eliminated the fact that these places were never really home for Jews, as they did not accept them. (This, by the way also applies to the period following WWII.); ii) eliminated the fact the land of Israel was historically the home of the Jewish people, and that many of them still considered it to be their home. iii) Showed ignorance on the actual origin of most Israeli Jews.

By denying Jews their history she have earned her criticism.

Now, it may be that I do not understand your other claims well enough, but they seem to be based on various wrong claims on the history of the Israeli-Arab conflict. If you clarify what you mean we can try to discuss that, but it would be a derail of this thread.

 

[WildCat]

I doubt that is true,

Oh, but it is. Just try, for example, to find any other country held to the "collective punishment" definition that apparently exists only for Israel.

but how exactly does it validate the accusation that people who criticize Israel are anti-semites? I understand anti-semites would likely hold Israel to a different standard than they would other countries, but that does not in any way establish the claim that people who criticize Israel generally do so because they're anti-semitic.

When the criticism is based largely on lies and misrepresentations no matter how often those lies and misrepresentations are pointed out, it sure makes you wonder, don't it?

The main people to blame for criticism of Israel are the people who work for the Israeli government.

The "Israeli government" is synonymous with "the Israeli people", Israel is a democracy. And you can be sure that historically the Jews have been blamed for the hatred they have received. Any good Nazi could tell you they got what they deserved.

 

[marksman]

PS - See here for an intelligent response to the above video.

That's not a response; it's an apologia, and one that ignores what Ms. Thomas said. Had she been referring only to the West Bank, she would have told the Israelis to "go back" to Israel, not to Germany and Poland. In fact, that's precisely why the interviewer asked the follow up question "Go back where"

Her statement only makes sense if she is talking about the complete dejudification of Israel, and Ms. Thomas, even in her apology and since never claimed her remarks were only about the West Bank. If that's hwat she intended to say, one would think that would be the first thing she would have said.

But she didn't mean that because she didn't say that. She said that Israelis should leave Israel, which is occupied land, and "go back" to Germany, Poland, the United States, and wherever they came from. I already posted links to the full interview in the two threads dedicated to discussing Ms. Thomas.

 

[Jekyll's Guest]

Now, it may be that I do not understand your other claims well enough, but they seem to be based on various wrong claims on the history of the Israeli-Arab conflict. If you clarify what you mean we can try to discuss that, but it would be a derail of this thread.

Tell her to sod off because Jews have lived there for 60+ years and have no intention of leaving unless it's by force, not because of any ancient cultural claims to the place.

The whole obsession with ancient legitimacy confounds me. Land taken and held by force has been a legitimate standard for every other nation on Earth, ever. Why some people think the Jews need some special privilege to explain away not giving what they took back to the losers is...confusing.

 

[Pardalis]

Regardless, the Israelis are living there now. It's their home now. The suggestion of removing them would be as much of a crime and injustice as anything Skeptigirl is accusing Israel of doing to the Palestinians.

She seems to say removing Palestinians from their home was a grave injustice, but Thomas' proposal to do the same to the Israeli Jews doesn't seem to bother her.

 

[LibraryLady]

I'm siding with the camp who will remember her in her heyday, and not judge her whole career by one unconsidered remark. This may be how she feels, but she is entitled to her opinion. I cannot think that she was actually thinking people should have been shipped back to the Holocaust, but I think she meant people should return to the lands they escaped from during and after it.

 

[marksman]

'the bible says we came from here' is meaningless unless it's an off hand way of saying 'God gave it to us.'

No, it's not. It means what skeptic said it means -- the Torah is part of a lot of archaeological evidence that Israel was homeland to the Jewish people for centuries, and that for centuries, the Jewish people dreamed of one day returning as a people to that homeland.

It does not mean "God gave it to us", though some radicals do mean it that way.

Isn't that [Jewish genetics] actually shocking and contrary to our modern preference for a melting pot?

How so? The melting pot has nothing to do with genetics. What an odd thing to say.

 

[Jono]

It's also dependant on the source of such comments like that of Helen Thomas', their position, nationality and/or their own ethniticity. If a palestinian agitator had, for example, said those words (which they have), it would be in part understandable even if it wouldn't make them more true or false. When the black nationalists in apartheid S.A felt like that, it was understandable, despite the absurd impracticalities involved.

In this case, would Thomas want to 'go back' to Europe as well, with the rest the offspring of european colonists/occupiers?

Edit: I just read that her parents were originally from Lebanon.

 

[WildCat]

The whole obsession with ancient legitimacy confounds me.

Maybe it's an obsession because people like you deny the historical roots of Judaism there, that Jews have lived there continuously for thousands of years, and many deny that the Jews are actually one people. All bogus claims.

 

[Doctor Evil]

Tell her to sod off because Jews have lived there for 60+ years and have no intention of leaving unless it's by force, not because of any ancient cultural claims to the place.

The whole obsession with ancient legitimacy confounds me. Land taken and held by force has been a legitimate standard for every other nation on Earth, ever. Why some people think the Jews need some special privilege to explain away not giving what they took back to the losers is...confusing.

Again, it seems to me that you do not know much about the actual history of the conflict. If you want we can discuss this. This does not change the fact that what Thomas did was to deny Jews of their own history, in several ways, as I explained above. This is the source of the criticism she is facing.

I may add that one can be ignorant about a subject, which is fine. (I am ignorant about many subjects.) One can also hold strong opinions about a subject. But it is hard for me to respect someone who holds strong opinions on a subject on which he is clearly ignorant. (BTW, I am referring to Thomas here.)

 

[WildCat]

Isn't that actually shocking and contrary to our modern preference for a melting pot?

 

[marksman]

I think she meant people should return to the lands they escaped from during and after it.

And you don't find that to be a horrifying position? We should take millions of Jews living in Israel, most of whom have been there since birth, and whose parents have also been there since birth, figure out where they came from (or presumably, where the majority of their ancestors came from) and ship them off to those nations?

It's not like she didn't know that Israel has been around for 60 years, and therefore generations of Israelis have been born there. The interviewer gave her an opportunity to say she was ignorant of the history of the region and she insisted that she was very familiar with the issues. The interviewer gave her plenty of opportunities to reverse her position and she kept digging deeper and deeper.

 

[Adrian Lopez]

There is ample historical and archeological evidence that Jews lived in Israel thousands of years ago, to at least Roman times.

But why does that entitle them to live on land that, by the time of Israel's establishment, was populated by others? As with manifest destiny, the main justification for the occupation is a kind of semi-religious "rightful heritage" claim.