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Merged Israel Attacks Palestinian Aid Flotilla, According To Reports

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Source?

(for the claim that it's from the UN)

Bleah, you guys are no fun. So anyway, it's actually a published list based on items the UN Sanctions Committee banned from importation into Iraq between 1991 and 1997. I guess that no western country would blockade that stuff....
 
Bleah, you guys are no fun. So anyway, it's actually a published list based on items the UN Sanctions Committee banned from importation into Iraq between 1991 and 1997. I guess that no western country would blockade that stuff....

Ah... very clever! ;)
 
Hypothetically speaking, Israel releasing a list would be my top choice. Since we don't have that, maybe something like a shipping company policy on what isn't allowed. Even an activist group that has decent methodology and documentation would work.

I was editing my original while you were replying. Sorry about that.

Shipping regulations won't help here, as non-Israeli ships aren't allowed to dock in Gaza. You can't have missed the whole 'sea blockade' business, surely?

Meanwhile the International Committee of the Red Cross will confirm that such basics as glazing glass , basic antibiotics, prosthetic limbs and spare parts for dialysis machines are unavailable or in desperately short supply. To name but a very few.

Given that plenty of people are prepared to supply such things and that they are readily identifiable as being 'non terrorism-related items' why would Israel want to restrict their import into Gaza? Aid agencies would, I feel sure, even pay for the transport from an Israeli port.

You have, elsewhere in this thread, stated that Hamas is stealing the aid that is going into Gaza. To make any sense this would mean Hamas are sitting on huge stockpiles of antibiotics, ambulance spares, water treatment materials and X-ray developing fluids. I find this hard to believe. I suspect you do too.

The fact that such things are not available tells me that Israel must be restricting their import into Gaza. Otherwise the stuff would be there. But if Hamas is responsible for humanitarian aid going missing then all Israel has to do is to have neutral observers checking the stuff into Gaza and showing Hamas up for the bastards they are.

If Israel isn't actively seeking to keep Gazans hungry, sick and demoralised then it's doing a damn fine impersonation.
 
I was editing my original while you were replying. Sorry about that.

Shipping regulations won't help here, as non-Israeli ships aren't allowed to dock in Gaza. You can't have missed the whole 'sea blockade' business, surely?

Doh! I claim late night brain fartage! :o

Meanwhile the International Committee of the Red Cross will confirm that such basics as glazing glass , basic antibiotics, prosthetic limbs and spare parts for dialysis machines are unavailable or in desperately short supply. To name but a very few.
I assume you refer to this:
http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/israel-update-290410

Which says that there there are restrictions on unspecified medical spare parts but they aren't banned as they also say they did import those parts. It also says that they were importing and distributing the drugs, so those aren't banned. It also said it increased the level of service at the prothesis clinic, so it seems those aren't banned. Nowhere does it mention the shortage due to bans, which means you're making some unfounded arguments.


Given that plenty of people are prepared to supply such things and that they are readily identifiable as being 'non terrorism-related items' why would Israel want to restrict their import into Gaza? Aid agencies would, I feel sure, even pay for the transport from an Israeli port

You have, elsewhere in this thread, stated that Hamas is stealing the aid that is going into Gaza. To make any sense this would mean Hamas are sitting on huge stockpiles of antibiotics, ambulance spares, water treatment materials and X-ray developing fluids. I find this hard to believe. I suspect you do too.
No. Hamas has a history of stealing needed supplies and using as leverage over the population:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/06/gaza-un-aid-hamas

The fact that such things are not available tells me that Israel must be restricting their import into Gaza. Otherwise the stuff would be there. But if Hamas is responsible for humanitarian aid going missing then all Israel has to do is to have neutral observers checking the stuff into Gaza and showing Hamas up for the bastards they are.
It's already been proven that Hamas steals aid. And haven't you noticed the stories that Hamas isn't letting the aid from the flotilla actually get to the people of Gaza?

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/02/israel.palestinians.aid/

If Israel isn't actively seeking to keep Gazans hungry, sick and demoralised then it's doing a damn fine impersonation.
Only to those who wish to see it that way.

Hamas has been caught stealing aid before, they aren't letting the current aid in, and this lets aside the calls for genocide by their leadership. The fact that you think Israel needs to end the blockade and surrender control of the border to independent observers before you will call Hamas the bastards they are suggests you may never do so.
 
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I know you haven't been following this thread from the start, but two questions:
  • Do you think Israel is justified in maintaining a blockade given that weapons used against Israeli citizens have been smuggled into Gaza by sea in the past?
  • Can you explain why violence occured on only one of the many ships boarded by Israel during the blockade?


I have been following the thread from the start, I only skipped a few pages in the middle.

The thrust of my post was actually about the fact that this incident is a serious own goal for Israel, and they're coming over very very badly in the media presentation and the court of public opinion. I note nobody actually commented on the article I linked to, which was written by a native-born Israeli.

Yes, the Israeli spokesmen are coming over in exactly the same way as Mugabe's henchmen. The complete disconnect between what they are saying and what we can see is actually happening. The party line being repeated that we are the good guys and behaving perfectly reasonably.

At the same time, Israel's actions are seen as being completely disproportionate to the threat they are under. We see people in Israel with a pleasant, western lifestyle, symphony concerts and so on. At the same time we see a small group of people penned into a crowded ghetto, living in poverty and deprivation, being allowed aid shipments based on cold calorific requirements calculations and comments about them being "put on a diet". We see Israel building something that dwarfs the Berlin Wall, cutting through Palestinian land and annexing even more territory. We know about the nuclear weapons.

We're invited to believe that the small, poverty-stricken group represents a genuine threat of genocide against the large, prosperous, well-armed nation. It dosn't appear credible. Far from there being any danger of the Palestinians ejecting the Israelis from the entire territory, the danger seems to be of the Palestinians themselves being left with no remaining territory. Whether what they have at present could be a viable state is debatable.

The relative imbalance of might is so complete that Israel's protestations come over very badly indeed. It really does seem as if this "socialisation and indoctrination process" described by Pappe distorts the Israeli view of reality to a serious degree.

Situations where two disparate groups have genuine claims to the same bit of territory are never good. But no peace is ever likely to be reached if one side is intent on obliterating the other. The paradox is that while an Israeli might hear this statement as supporting their view that the Palestinians would like to eject the Israelis, the rest of the world sees it in terms of Israel's excessive heavy-handedness in trying to disadvantage the Palestinian territories into oblivion.

Rolfe.
 
The fact that you think Israel needs to end the blockade and surrender control of the border to independent observers before you will call Hamas the bastards they are suggests you may never do so.

Where did I say they need to end the blockade or surrender control of the border to independent observers? I was simply saying that having The Red Cross (say) observing what aid goes in and what then becomes available would prove Israel's case if it was all the fault of Hamas. It ain't happening.

And I do think Hamas are bastards.
 
I don't think many people on both sides are willing to compromise a bit.
I think what we can see from this episode is that the current blockade and containment doesn't really achieve Israel's goals either. Because the hardships the Palestinian populace endures are not blamed on Hamas but rather on Israel.
 
Does your media show the videos of the "activists" beating the soldiers with pipes and clubs?

What's your personal take on the issue?

How about this take:

The people being beaten were shooting (and killing) other humans with guns.


An unnamed Israeli commando, who purportedly led the raid on the Mavi Marmara, today told Israeli news website Ynet News that he shot at a protester who approached him with a knife. "I was in front of a number of people with knives and clubs," he said. "I cocked my weapon when I saw that one was coming towards me with a knife drawn and I fired once. Then another 20 people came at me from all directions and threw me down to the deck below."


Gaza flotilla activists were shot in head at close range
 
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How about this take:

The people being beaten were shooting (and killing) other humans with guns.


An unnamed Israeli commando, who purportedly led the raid on the Mavi Marmara, today told Israeli news website Ynet News that he shot at a protester who approached him with a knife. "I was in front of a number of people with knives and clubs," he said. "I cocked my weapon when I saw that one was coming towards me with a knife drawn and I fired once. Then another 20 people came at me from all directions and threw me down to the deck below."


Gaza flotilla activists were shot in head at close range

What does this prove, JJ? If a cop is approached by a man with a knife, and the cop orders the man to stop / drop the weapon, if he doesn't the cop can shoot to kill.
 
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