Chinese workers pay a price for no Labor Unions.

[Foolmewunz]

It makes no difference to me whether it is a person or the environment that is forcing me to do something. In either case I work to change that force.

And that work your doing? It's...... ???

 

[gabeygoat]

Oh, yeah ! Labor unions have always been at the forefront of suicide prevention..

If you don't count the dissolution of a large work force like the air traffic controllers...

no, but they gave us the five day work week, the 40 hour work week, no child labor, overtime, 8 hour days etc.

 

[six7s]

It makes no difference to me whether it is a person or the environment that is forcing me to do something. In either case I work to change that force.

And that work your doing? It's...... ???

... to change the force, of course!

Do not assume anything, Foolmi-Wanz. Clear, your mind must be if you are to discover the real villains behind the plot

The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, daenku32 would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure.

 

[six7s]

no, but they gave us the five day work week, the 40 hour work week, no child labor, overtime, 8 hour days etc.

All right... all right... but... apart from the five day work week, the 40 hour work week, no child labor, overtime, 8 hour days, the aqueducts, roads, irrigation, sanitation, medicine, wine, fresh water, education, public baths and public order... what have the unions done for us?

 

[DOC]

Maybe you want to read that article you linked to again. You seem to have missed the point I mentioned earlier, that THE WORKERS THERE ARE UNIONIZED, making much of this thread absurd to at least the fourth power...

Nowhere in the article does it say the workers at that company are unionized. In fact someone in here already admitted they aren't after looking into it.

 

[MikeMangum]

no, but they gave us the five day work week, the 40 hour work week, no child labor, overtime, 8 hour days etc.

Legislatures did those things; they did not come about because of collective bargaining. If unions wanted to limit themselves to voluntary associations of workers who work to influence labor policy, I would be all for it, but I can't stand the hypocrasy that says that when capital colludes to set prices (a cartel) it is morally wrong, but someone it is ok when labor does the exact same thing.

 

[DOC]

Let's say there are two companies. The workers at Company A have a 40 hour work week, are paid 1000 dollars a month, can talk to co-workers while working their 8 hour shift, can walk on the company street alone if they want, and can go to a union representative if their boss makes them clean a toilet as punishment.

The workers at company B have a 60 hour work week, are paid 300 a month, can't talk while working their 12 hour shift, can't walk on the company street alone if they want, and have no recourse if their boss makes them clean a toilet as punishment.

Now please answer these questions honestly:

In you were forced to bet $1000 on which company's workers would likely have the higher suicide rate over a period of 10 years which company would you bet on? A, B, Either one because the odds should be the same.

Also in your opinion would the workers of company B be more likely to get the same working conditions of company A with or without union representation?

Has DOC boy presented any evidence for any of his assertions yet?

If you answer my 2 questions about company A and B you'll get your evidence. I doubt you'll respond to those questions.

 

[zooterkin]

If you answer my 2 questions about company A and B you'll get your evidence. I doubt you'll respond to those questions.

You've already had answers to your questions; didn't you like them?

 

[DOC]

Legislatures did those things; they did not come about because of collective bargaining.

That's kind of like saying the right for women to vote did not come about because of the actions of women but because of legislation.

Here is some info on the part labor played in the 8 Hour day from the Wiki article "8_Hour_Day"

"In 1864, the eight-hour day quickly became a central demand of the Chicago labor movement. The Illinois legislature passed a law in early 1867 granting an eight-hour day but had so many loopholes that it was largely ineffective. A city-wide strike that began on May 1, 1867 shut down the city's economy for a week before collapsing. On June 25, 1868 Congress passed an eight-hour law for federal employees [3] which was also of limited effectiveness. (On May 19, 1869, Grant signed a National Eight Hour Law Proclamation.[4])

In August 1866 the National Labor Union at Baltimore passed a resolution that said, "The first and great necessity of the present to free labour of this country from capitalist slavery, is the passing of a law by which eight hours shall be the normal working day in all States of the American Union. We are resolved to put forth all our strength until this glorious result is achieved."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day

 

[littlehulkster]

This is one of the milder things that happens to the Chinese proletariat, really. Their government is Communist in name only, just like their Labor Unions are such in name only. They're all pawns of the government, which is in a serious ultra-capitalist kick right now.

China is not a nice place to live or work (For non-connected Chinese, that is, rich foreigners and connected Chinese have an easier time), but we ignore that because the West is so dependent on their cheap labor to maintain it's lifestyle.

I find it abhorrent, myself, and refuse to buy products which are made by exploited workers if I can help it (Sadly, I often can't), but I seem to be a minority in thinking it's wrong to cause death and suffering for my own vanity.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Nowhere in the article does it say the workers at that company are unionized. In fact someone in here already admitted they aren't after looking into it.

You're not real good at this, are you?


You need to read again, DOC. You've posted more than one article link. Try the one in one in your post #57.

https://freeinternetpress.com/story.php?sid=25887

The series of apparent or attempted suicides has shaken the management of China's largest electronics manufacturer. Liu Kun, 40, who calls himself the director of media relations, goes around in a sweat-soaked shirt. He avoids the word "factory," preferring the word "campus" - as if Foxconn were a university. In a battery-driven golf cart - steered by Chen Hongfang, second in command at the company union, which is controlled by the Communist Party - Liu shows a visitor around the palm-lined streets. They want to prove how good the workers have it.

And Wolfman commented that the Hon Hai workers IN TAIWAN are not unionized. He said nothing about the workers in Shenzhen.

 

[Foolmewunz]

<snip>
I find it abhorrent, myself, and refuse to buy products which are made by exploited workers if I can help it (Sadly, I often can't), but I seem to be a minority in thinking it's wrong to cause death and suffering for my own vanity.

How do you, personally, determine which labourers are exploited? Do you lump all Chinese producers into one big negative bundle, or do you have a ratings service or consumer watchdog organization that you go to?

Same question: Workers in India
Same question: Workers in Viet Nam
Same question: Workers in Bangladesh
Same question: Workers in Indonesia
Same question: Workers in Lesotho
Same question: Workers in Guatemala
Same question: Workers in Mexico

Not to mention Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Cambodia, The Philippines, Korea, Bolivia, Brasil, Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Turkmenistan, Jordan, ......

 

[littlehulkster]

How do you, personally, determine which labourers are exploited? Do you lump all Chinese producers into one big negative bundle, or do you have a ratings service or consumer watchdog organization that you go to?

Same question: Workers in India
Same question: Workers in Viet Nam
Same question: Workers in Bangladesh
Same question: Workers in Indonesia
Same question: Workers in Lesotho
Same question: Workers in Guatemala
Same question: Workers in Mexico

Not to mention Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Cambodia, The Philippines, Korea, Bolivia, Brasil, Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Turkmenistan, Jordan, ......

I said exploited workers, that is a term which applies to all workers, which is why I only buy products which are union made in the United States or Canada if I can help it, although European products will also work in a pinch. The only time I don't have a choice is electronics, which are almost never made by non-exploited workers these days.

Also, I noticed you're in Hong Kong. Do you profit off exploitation (Which I assume, judging from these questions and your perfect English) or are you just an especially sociopathic and well connected Chinese person?

 

[Foolmewunz]

I said exploited workers, that is a term which applies to all workers, which is why I only buy products which are union made in the United States or Canada if I can help it, although European products will also work in a pinch. The only time I don't have a choice is electronics, which are almost never made by non-exploited workers these days.

Why do you automatically assume that union workers in North America aren't exploited? You must not be sufficiently far left to have heard the argument that since the rampant union-busting of the 70s Union Management is often as bad as Management Management when it comes to taking advantage of the labourer.
But you have no respect for the unions in Europe? Some are rather better than the ones in North America when it comes to looking after their workers, you know?

Also, I noticed you're in Hong Kong. Do you profit off exploitation (Which I assume, judging from these questions and your perfect English) or are you just an especially sociopathic and well connected Chinese person?

Actually, I'm just terribly precocious. That's my actual picture in the avatar.

What do you mean by "profiting off of exploitation"? How many jobs can you name that are not somehow profiting off of someone who's being exploited?
For instance, what do you do? (My history is all over these boards.)

And why would my English skills lead you to make any assumption whatsoever as to the fact that I profit from the exploitation of others. As to your comment on sociopathic? Well, I just bolded that for you. I think people should sometimes be fed their regurgitated material when they're mouthing hyperbole just as a matter of course.

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

China is not a nice place to live or work

Are you speaking from experience? I would say there are 100s of millions of Chinese who would strongly disagree with that.

There are problems in China. There are many people who live terrible lives.

I would say the same is true to a greater or lesser extent in many countries - certainly in the UK and the US.

China is not however, some Communist hellhole where the people are stomped upon and oppressed on a daily basis. Its a developing country with a weird political situation and history. Is it worse than India? We don't often here about the working conditions there but then I guess India isn't seen as the Boogeyman?

 

[Toke]

Legislatures did those things; they did not come about because of collective bargaining. If unions wanted to limit themselves to voluntary associations of workers who work to influence labor policy, I would be all for it, but I can't stand the hypocrasy that says that when capital colludes to set prices (a cartel) it is morally wrong, but someone it is ok when labor does the exact same thing.

You are ignoring a rather important point here.

If one employee try to negotiate with the company, he will be told "take it, or leave it" because the company can afford loosing one employee.

If a representative of all the employees negotiate, the company will suddenly have to take him serious as the negotiations will be on even terms.

It is called collective bargaining, try not to confuse it with industry cartels.

 

[Toke]

How do you, personally, determine which labourers are exploited? Do you lump all Chinese producers into one big negative bundle, or do you have a ratings service or consumer watchdog organization that you go to?

Same question: Workers in India
Same question: Workers in Viet Nam
Same question: Workers in Bangladesh
Same question: Workers in Indonesia
Same question: Workers in Lesotho
Same question: Workers in Guatemala
Same question: Workers in Mexico

Not to mention Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Cambodia, The Philippines, Korea, Bolivia, Brasil, Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Turkmenistan, Jordan, ......

Don't try to confuse us with reality, you are clearly evil, and can just as well own up and admit it.

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

. The only time I don't have a choice is electronics, which are almost never made by non-exploited workers these days.

Wow... just wow.

I'll have to go and tell the sister in law who works for Samsung in Seoul that she is an 'exploited worker'. After that, I'll pass the message on to some of my buds in Intel, LG and Sony. Maybe we should start up some kind of charity for these guys? Only problem I can see is that they are all making more money than me!

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

You are ignoring a rather important point here.

If one employee try to negotiate with the company, he will be told "take it, or leave it" because the company can afford loosing one employee.

If a representative of all the employees negotiate, the company will suddenly have to take him serious as the negotiations will be on even terms.

It is called collective bargaining, try not to confuse it with industry cartels.

And if the industry got together to 'collectively bargain' a pay rate that would be OK too?

 

[Toke]

And if the industry got together to 'collectively bargain' a pay rate that would be OK too?

Yes, and that is how it works, every 10-20 years there will be nationwide strikes when disagreements over pay/work conditions escalate, and every union and employers association decide to remind the other side who is the stronger and have the most strike/lockout savings.

The only alternative I see is the employer v.s. each employee individually, you can see the results in most 3. world countries.