Lothian
should be banned
Ooooo you are naughty but I like you.
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Chinese workers pay a price for no Labor Unions.
- Thread starter DOC
- Start date
Where did you get that "fact"?
Even as China has moved to the spot of the world's fourth-largest economy, filling many Chinese with pride, suicide has become the main cause of death in the age group between 15 and 34.
http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking+News/Asia/Story/STIStory_312205.html
China also doesn't have that good a ranking according to the WHO:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
Higher than the U.S. and Canada.
Hokulele
Deleterious Slab of Damnation
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
You are soooooo going to get a sunburn.
I skimmed page 3. I guess I didn't do a very good job of it.
six7s
veretic
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2007
- Messages
- 8,716
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader, TLA Dictator
I'd like to correct a 'possible misconception that I may have been a part of. The conditions at that factory are not necessarily "normal" for China. They are legal, but they are not, by far, the norm any longer.
Many factories have relaxed many of the personnel controls that Hon Hai Precision thrives on. My first reaction on my first visit was that it's like a military camp. I've noticed no improvement in the return visits. Many of the managers I met are arrogant and derisive of the labour, and they are real big on slick presentation/surface to cover up rather dubious practices. I never did a social compliance audit there, but I'd imagine they'd pass. Like I said, they do it legal... they just don't do it nice.
Many factories have relaxed many of the personnel controls that Hon Hai Precision thrives on. My first reaction on my first visit was that it's like a military camp. I've noticed no improvement in the return visits. Many of the managers I met are arrogant and derisive of the labour, and they are real big on slick presentation/surface to cover up rather dubious practices. I never did a social compliance audit there, but I'd imagine they'd pass. Like I said, they do it legal... they just don't do it nice.
It seemed pretty much mart and parcel for the factories I've visited. Remember, this factory is the size of a small city. Most of these practices are in place to curb things like theft, which is a real problem in Chinese factories (the stories I could tell...). From western perspectives it may seem cruel, and it may not be as common as it used to be, but I wouldn't say it's uncommon.
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Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader, TLA Dictator
I've been to very many, though, that have evolved over the past five years and do not have such rigid controls, do not have them in uniforms, and have a very good rate of return on their out-of-province workers. Many larger complexes give the workers free access to the city beyond the gates, something that Hon Hai definitely limits.
Fair enough. I guess it depends on the size of the factory, and the kind of work being done there. I suspect that theft is a major contributing factor for these policies. I can also state with some confidence that Taiwanese owned factories generally have higher salaries and better workplace safety than, for example, Chinese owned factories.
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Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader, TLA Dictator
I don't think I'd make that statement considering the some 75,000 Taiwanese owned businesses in China. I've encountered some very good ones (Quanta comes to mind) and some very bad ones. The single condition that is there when you find a well-run worker-friendly factory environment is commercial pressure. If the clients put the squeeze on the factories, the factories get better. If the clients make cursory visits which are then followed up by a merchandising guy screaming at them on the phone for an hour because he needs his 4,000 chairs by the 17th and doesn't give a damn how many hours Mei Ling has to work? Well, the factory goes right back to its old ways.
And how do these compare to Chinese owned factories? Or Japanese?
Absolutely. And this comes back to my original point. Placing the blame solely on the factories shows an ignorance of the role customers play in the over all process. I worked in a factory that had both American and Japanese clients, and I can tell you that Japanese clients, while much more particular about their products, are not nearly as obnoxious as some American clients. The number of times we would ask for confirmation on a product, only to receive it too late to complete the order on time, despite the fact that receiving confirmation was a condition of the initial contract. Then they would blame us for not working fast enough.
Look, I'm not sitting here defending anything, but I do think that a lot of the comments being thrown are by people from the west who simply do not know what it's like for these factory workers. When you have no option but to work at a factory, with the only other option being starvation, working 12 hours suddenly doesn't seem too bad.
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader, TLA Dictator
To be clear, I'm not defending any of them, either. I re-posted here, in fact, because I was afraid that some of my earlier posts might have seemed to be supportive of Hon Hai.
As to well-run Chinese companies. Yes, there are quite a few. Ningbo Beifa comes to mind. I'm at a disadvantage, though, as I really can't name names without creating problems with NDAs my company has in place. But Beifa is a prime example of what I said earlier. They want to sell to the monster office supply chains: Staples, Office Max, Office Depot, Kinko-FedEx. In order to do so, they have had to pass some pretty tough inspections. Rather than glossing things over, though, they actually implemented the policies and made them part of the corporate culture.
My experience with the Japanese vs American vs European clients is somewhat different. I can break their behaviour down by business category. The big retailers (multi-product) tend to be much more socially conscientious. The HiTech are animals. The garment companies are penny-pinchers and will look the other way on any corner-cutting as long as the garment passes QC. Electrical appliance and machinery buyers tend to care about the engineering quality of the products, and thus tend to tie-in to longer relationships. Those guys are very very supportive of their own social compliance auditors and I've known one of them to cancel contracts with a company that refused to adjust its working hours, for instance.
By all of this I mean that Canon or Hitachi are more likely to behave like Apple or Dell than, say, Sogo. And Sogo's more likely to behave like Federated Stores than, say, Honda.
We are basically in agreement, and you have much more experience than I. Thanks for an interesting discussion.
Last of the Fraggles
Illuminator
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2006
- Messages
- 3,986
No it isn't. For a start the people are free to leave whenever they like. Nobody is forcing them to work there.
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader, TLA Dictator
Oh, you've been there, too? What was it like on your last visit...., which was when? Because two weeks ago it didn't look much like a prison to me. It looked more like a military camp - meaning they treat the workers like soldiers rather than at will labour, which is what they're supposed to be, but it certainly doesn't look much like what I've seen of pics and videos of Chinese prisons.
It makes no difference to me whether it is a person or the environment that is forcing me to do something. In either case I work to change that force.
Well, the environment around me forces me to work, otherwise I end up being thrown out on the streets. Am I a prisoner?
Last of the Fraggles
Illuminator
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2006
- Messages
- 3,986
They aren't forced though. They go there through choice. If they don't want to they can go elsewhere.
Just like you don't have to buy the products if you don't like the way they are made.