lomiller
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Anti-English discrimination in Quebec
- Thread starter Canadian712
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lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
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Wow, if there was ever a perfect example of the no true Scotsman fallacy this is it. That one “infamously dense” person was the leader of the group in question.
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader, TLA Dictator
We've got lots of free space here, why don't you elaborate on how you get a NoTrueScotsman out of that.
What you've said is known as the You Are Wrong Fallacy, not uncommon on these boards, unfortunately. Parizeau effectively squelched his own career with that statement and turned a lot of thinking yet sympathetical Quebecois against him. It doesn't matter if the party being referenced is Gandhi, saying that someone else did something wrong so it's okay for another to do so is quite obviously Tu Quoque - has nothing to do with NTS nor did my post.
Sword_Of_Truth
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I'm typing this post right now from a hotel room at the edge of Dorval Airport in Montreal. I spent four days here last week attending the annual conference of the Canadian Nuclear Society followed by an additional 9 days touring Montreal, Quebec City, Drummondville, Sherbrooke and Trois Rivieres.
One thing that has really stood out to me has been how everyone here speaks english! Even in the most heavily french rural areas outside the big cities, I had no problem going into restaraunts and stores and conducting my business in english.
Canadian 712, speaking as a usually unrepentant Alberta redneck, your neighbors have gone out of their way to accomodate you and I. I'll be back in Edmonton in less than 8 hours so I don't have to worry about it. But you can either choose to join me out here or meet your neighbors halfway.
Your current attitude doesn't seem to be getting you anywhere.
One thing that has really stood out to me has been how everyone here speaks english! Even in the most heavily french rural areas outside the big cities, I had no problem going into restaraunts and stores and conducting my business in english.
Canadian 712, speaking as a usually unrepentant Alberta redneck, your neighbors have gone out of their way to accomodate you and I. I'll be back in Edmonton in less than 8 hours so I don't have to worry about it. But you can either choose to join me out here or meet your neighbors halfway.
Your current attitude doesn't seem to be getting you anywhere.
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
Welsh is not a Gaelic language, Celtic, yes but not Gaelic.
I am all in favor of people preserving their traditiional language, but am not sure how well you can do that with law. The attempts of the Republic to make Ireland bilingual have meet with very mixed results. English is still the "Cradle Language" of most of the population, and although Irish Gaelic is required in schools, quite a few students treat it as "Pass and Forget" course. There are quite a few jokes in Ireland about that.
Slayhamlet
Master Poster
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I don't think he's saying that Welsh is a Gaelic (Goidelic) language. The syntax of that sentence is technically ambiguous but in context "Gaelic" should be understood only with "Scottish", not with "Welsh and Scottish". It's to distinguish it from Lowland Scots.
Almost correct. I was using it as an example of a language which enjoys a significant degree of government support and has maintained a large speaker base (Welsh) and one which, until a few years ago, was basically completely sidestepped in favour of English contributing to an ongoing (and drastic) erosion in the number of speakers.
Since many that frequent the same threads as me know that Gaelic is my first language, I'm not quite sure why the odd poster seems to assume I don't know the difference between Gaelic and Welsh language roots.....
Slayhamlet
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Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you were actually saying anything about Lowland Scots. I was just explaining (or trying to explain) why the term "Scottish Gaelic" is used instead of just "Scottish", since he was misreading "[[Welsh] and [Scottish Gaelic]] languages" as "[[Welsh and Scottish] Gaelic] languages".
Corsair 115
Penultimate Amazing
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I'm not 'supporting' anyone. I am pointing out that there's plenty of stupidity to go around if one wishes to be fair about it. Quebec is neither all to blame nor blameless for the language follies.
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader, TLA Dictator
It was a figurative statement. I know you weren't actually supporting him, but I also know that you know the invalidity of the TQ argument.
In short, I'm not shifting my support to the St. Henri version of rednecks just because Parizeau behaved like a horse's ass crybaby after the referendum went down. Nor was I going to support Levesque just because someone can tell us of a time they were embarassed because of their French accent in Saskatoon.
"Oh, yeah, well he did it first" just doesn't make it.
Canadian712
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The theory that French will vanish in Quebec if were not for Bill 101 is just a bunch of BS. If this assumption was correct, then Danish should have been long under the bed. Its 6 million inhabitants inhabitants speak a language that is shared only in Greenland and one part of Germany. But the numbers are small, less than 100,000 speak Danish outside the country. And guess what else? In Denmark, English is embraced as the language of internationalism and schools teach the language early and successfully. 90% of Danes can speak English and they speak it very well, compared to 32% of Francophone Quebecers. Graduate school classes throughout the country teach business courses exclusively in English to prepare students for the real world. Danes don't seem to be particularly afraid of becoming Anglophones or having their culture destroyed by English. Bilingualism does not lead to assimilation, a concept that the Quebec government does not seem to realize.
I'm seriously very tired of repeating myself by saying that French is not my issue, but the lack of freedom of choice when it comes to education. Firstly, Quebec is not a state it's a PROVINCE , which it means its laws have to abide with the Canadian constitution. Secondly, most Francophones are AGAINST Bill 101 and here's the proof
http://www.montrealgazette.com/life...+choose+language+education/3010906/story.html
66% of Quebeckers (61% of Francophones) backed this position in a telephone survey conducted by the Leger marketing company. When it comes to CEGEP(junior college), 84% of all Quebeckers (80% of Francophones) believing that universal access should be maintained.
stilicho
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I don't know if you mentioned it before but Mordecai Richler lamented this bill in one of his books. However, the issue was never language rights but provincial rights. I spent most of my life in Alberta and all the administrations there fully supported Quebec's rights and that was reciprocated too.
In the brief times I've spent in Quebec, everyone I've encountered understands this too. The well-off in Quebec send their kids to private schools that are either English-only or sometimes bilingual. Nobody is fooled about what Bill 101 means.
Are you a supporter of provincial rights or federal rights?
@Architect:
Originally Posted by Architect
With respect, that is a very partisan and simplistic view.
In your business dealings with nominal francophones, have you ever had difficulty when negotiating in English? I haven't but perhaps my experiences are anecdotal.
There are many examples of people slowly losing their language, and after a few generations they don't speak it anymore due to cultural assimilation. Just think of the youth of the many Native nations and Innu who can't speak their own language anymore.
Here's the example of the Dutch in Brussels:
loose translation:
"By the end of the 19th century, Brussels was still a Dutch speaking town. Sixty years later, Dutch had become a mere maternal language for a tiny minority. The city had previously been resisting over a hundred years of French domination during which Dutch had been banned from administrative office.
[...]
In 1947, the Dutch-speaking population were nothing more than a small minority. The number of people speaking exclusively or mainly Dutch had dropped from 45 to 24 % while the francophones had gone to 50 to 72% "Everywhere, you only had to have one Francophone for everyone to start speaking French", noted Ridder. In 1984, there were only 7800 students left in the Dutch primary education system in Brussels."
This shows how quickly a language can erode and die, 60 years is very quick to loose a language. And we see the same thing starting to happen to Montréal.
That's the only thing we want to prevent with those laws, to prevent French from disappearing from Québec, and North America (ironically, in our case French is the one we want to protect, while in Brussels French is the threat).
Check this as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frenchification_of_Brussels
Here's the example of the Dutch in Brussels:
http://www.ledevoir.com/international/europe/290665/la-bruxellisation-de-bruxelles
loose translation:
"By the end of the 19th century, Brussels was still a Dutch speaking town. Sixty years later, Dutch had become a mere maternal language for a tiny minority. The city had previously been resisting over a hundred years of French domination during which Dutch had been banned from administrative office.
[...]
In 1947, the Dutch-speaking population were nothing more than a small minority. The number of people speaking exclusively or mainly Dutch had dropped from 45 to 24 % while the francophones had gone to 50 to 72% "Everywhere, you only had to have one Francophone for everyone to start speaking French", noted Ridder. In 1984, there were only 7800 students left in the Dutch primary education system in Brussels."
This shows how quickly a language can erode and die, 60 years is very quick to loose a language. And we see the same thing starting to happen to Montréal.
That's the only thing we want to prevent with those laws, to prevent French from disappearing from Québec, and North America (ironically, in our case French is the one we want to protect, while in Brussels French is the threat).
Check this as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frenchification_of_Brussels
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That's because Denmark isn't in English dominated North America.
You do realise that the Scandanavian languages are, to a large extent (and excluding Icelandic) mutually intelliglble, don't you? And you acknowledge that Danish is used by the media, the courts, the government, and so in said country?
And yet to have wholly failed to respond to the points made about Scottish Gaelic and Welsh, likewise other posters point to the Native American languages which are close to extintion in the face of overwhelming anglo pressure.
I think it's your "real world" comment which is most telling, however, especially in conjunction with your comments about provinces. It's quite clear that you do have aproblem with these damned pesky Quebecois having the temerity to hold on to their language and culture.
To be frank, I seriousy doubt just how much of an effort you made to learn their language and I've yet to hear a good reason why you find it so hard to learn another tongue. It must be easy, after all 90% of Danes managed to become bilingual in English......
No, because I speak French sufficiently well to conduct business and hold normal discussions. I didn't find learning it particularly difficult, although I'm told I do have a very broad Scottish accent.
Cleon
King of the Pod People
