Merged Israel Attacks Palestinian Aid Flotilla, According To Reports

[BeAChooser]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/02/israel.palestinians.aid/

Jerusalem (CNN) -- Israel has attempted to deliver humanitarian aid from an international flotilla to Gaza, but Hamas -- which controls the territory -- has refused to accept the cargo, the Israel Defense Forces said Wednesday.

Hamas is just plain EVIL.

 

[bit_pattern]

Would you like to correct this statement to reflect what actually was used against the IDF boarders, or do you wish to make your first impression here as a dishonest liar?

No, I'm basing it on eyewitness accounts, the video footage released by the IDF and their photo of all the "weapons" they managed to scrounge up, which largely consisted of tools necessary for the running of a ship, they'd obviously gone to great trouble to gather up everything that could conceivably be passed off as a weapon, going so far to take all of the kitchen equipment (they even had the steel on display!)

And if those tools were indeed used against the IDF during the illegal boarding of the vessel that would be justified as we now know, as more and more eye-witnesses are released, that Israel's chronology is entirely confected and that they were already firing on the vessel, and people were already injured, before they landed on the deck and that scuffle broke out.

As for quixotecoyote saying that Wikipedia is slanted against Israel, it has a section with legal opinions both for and against Israel's boarding, so dicks to your crying foul.

 

[WildCat]

even if this were not the case, any use of force must also be proportionate to the threat posed to the soldiers using it and a few kitchen knives and wooden sticks are NOT a proportionate threat to justify 9+ gunshot deaths.

So what would be a proportionate response?

Maybe sending 6 ships of militant Israeli settlers armed with bats, steel rods, slingshots, wrenches, etc to meet them?

 

[bit_pattern]

So what would be a proportionate response?

Maybe sending 6 ships of militant Israeli settlers armed with bats, steel rods, slingshots, wrenches, etc to meet them?

How about NOT sending in elite special forces who are trained to react with lethal violence? How about negotiating an outcome like any other liberal Western state would have done?

 

[JediKnight2.01]

How about NOT sending in elite special forces who are trained to react with lethal violence? How about negotiating an outcome like any other liberal Western state would have done?

Hasn't it already been established they were armed with paint-ball guns and were trained in non-lethal measures?

 

[applecorped]

How about no?

 

[bit_pattern]

Hasn't it already been established they were armed with paint-ball guns and were trained in non-lethal measures?

Yet they still managed to kill at least 10 and injure over 80 with gunfire? Strange that...

 

[IDB87]

And if those tools were indeed used against the IDF during the illegal boarding of the vessel that would be justified as we now know, as more and more eye-witnesses are released, that Israel's chronology is entirely confected and that they were already firing on the vessel, and people were already injured, before they landed on the deck and that scuffle broke out.

Who are these people that were injured, how were they injured, when were they injured? Where they gunshot wounds, or blunt trauma? Where did they receive first aid (if indeed they did), what are they doing now, what are they saying?

Etc etc.

In one of the videos JJ posted, you can hear a marker being shot several times. Is that what you're referring to when you say the crew was 'being fired on'?

 

[fallout]

""The international community cannot afford an Iranian port on the Mediterranean...The same countries that are criticizing us today, should know that they could be targeted tomorrow."

Who are you to speak on behalf of the entire international community? And here we go again with this bull, like the only way to prevent an iranian uprising to eliminate israel like the kooks love to fantasize, is keeping gaza under siege and complete misery.

 

[bit_pattern]

Who are these people that were injured, how were they injured, when were they injured? Where they gunshot wounds, or blunt trauma? Where did they receive first aid (if indeed they did), what are they doing now, what are they saying?

Etc etc.

In one of the videos JJ posted, you can hear a marker being shot several times. Is that what you're referring to when you say the crew was 'being fired on'?

We don't know, because Israel still has them in detention. But you can bet that the true story WILL come out and at the moment there is a pretty uniform accounts coming from eye witnesses that have been released that contradicts the IDF chronology.

 

[BeAChooser]

as we now know, as more and more eye-witnesses are released, that Israel's chronology is entirely confected and that they were already firing on the vessel, and people were already injured, before they landed on the deck and that scuffle broke out.

Of course the *activists* (gee, I thought they were supposed to be aid workers) claiming that have absolutely no motive to lie.

http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/06/israeli-ambassador-our-troops-didnt-fire-first.php

Michael Oren, Israeli ambassador to the U.S., insisted on CNN this morning that Israeli forces did not fire first during a deadly raid of a flotilla of aid ships -- and said Israeli soldiers only used force when they were "beaten and fired upon and stabbed."

Oren said the "so-called protesters" on the aid ships used iron bars, knives and guns to attack Israeli soldiers -- and that Israel had to stop the ships and "maintain this blockade in order to prevent Hamas from acquiring weaponry, not food and medicine."

But did the Israeli military fire first in the deadly raid?

"No, it did not," Oren said. "If it fired first, it was paintballs."

Here's a first hand account that's a lot more consistent with what the videos clearly show happened. But then, don't let the facts stop you from supporting terrorists.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3896796,00.html

Ron Ben Yishai recounts bloody clash aboard Gaza-bound vessel: The lacking crowd-dispersal means, the brutal violence of ‘peace activists,’ and the attempt to bring down an IDF helicopter

… snip ...

The first rope that soldiers used in order to descend down to the ship was wrested away by activists, most of them Turks, and [b[]tied to an antenna with the hopes of bringing the chopper down.[/b]

… snip ….

Navy commandoes slid down to the vessel one by one, yet then the unexpected occurred: The passengers that awaited them on the deck pulled out bats, clubs, and slingshots with glass marbles, assaulting each soldier as he disembarked. The fighters were nabbed one by one and were beaten up badly, yet they attempted to fight back.

However, to their misfortune, they were only equipped with paintball rifles used to disperse minor protests, such as the ones held in Bilin. The paintballs obviously made no impression on the activists, who kept on beating the troops up and even attempted to wrest away their weapons.

One soldier who came to the aid of a comrade was captured by the rioters and sustained severe blows. The commandoes were equipped with handguns but were told they should only use them in the face of life-threatening situations. When they came down from the chopper, they kept on shouting to each other “don’t shoot, don’t shoot,” even though they sustained numerous blows.

… snip ...

The planned rush towards the vessel’s bridge became impossible, even when a second chopper was brought in with another crew of soldiers. “Throw stun grenades,” shouted Flotilla 13’s commander who monitored the operation.

… snip …

The forces hurled stun grenades, yet the rioters on the top deck, whose number swelled up to 30 by that time, kept on beating up about 30 commandoes who kept gliding their way one by one from the helicopter. At one point, the attackers nabbed one commando, wrested away his handgun, and threw him down from the top deck to the lower deck, 30 feet below. The soldier sustained a serious head wound and lost his consciousness.

Only after this injury did Flotilla 13 troops ask for permission to use live fire. The commander approved it: You can go ahead and fire. The soldiers pulled out their handguns and started shooting at the rioters’ legs, a move that ultimately neutralized them. Meanwhile, the rioters started to fire back at the commandoes.

“I saw the tip of a rifle sticking out of the stairwell,” one commando said. “He fired at us and we fired back. We didn’t see if we hit him. We looked for him later but couldn’t find him.” Two soldiers sustained gunshot wounds to their knee and stomach after rioters apparently fired at them using guns wrested away from troops.

During the commotion, another commando was stabbed with a knife. In a later search aboard the Marmara, soldiers found caches of bats, clubs, knives, and slingshots used by the rioters ahead of the IDF takeover. It appeared the activists were well prepared for a fight.

 

[fallout]

Who are these people that were injured, how were they injured, when were they injured? Where they gunshot wounds, or blunt trauma? Where did they receive first aid (if indeed they did), what are they doing now, what are they saying?

Etc etc.

In one of the videos JJ posted, you can hear a marker being shot several times. Is that what you're referring to when you say the crew was 'being fired on'?

Nothing is yet being brought out, Israel is still working to build a super defensive case, the AIPAC big fish are still deciding what to do to the US congress to carry this on. Israel is working on the thin line of keeping everything secret and liberating a number of detainees just to avoid a blatant and fair reason for being declared war upon. Nothing comes out officially: number of dead, number of injured, full lists, full releases of the videos that the israelis did take and etc.. And what about the content of all the cameras they confiscated from the crew as soon as they boarded the ship?

 

[mortimer]

We don't know, because Israel still has them in detention. But you can bet that the true story WILL come out and at the moment there is a pretty uniform accounts coming from eye witnesses that have been released that contradicts the IDF chronology.

Are the peace activists inherently more truthful than the Israelis? If so, why?

 

[IDB87]

We don't know, because Israel still has them in detention. But you can bet that the true story WILL come out and at the moment there is a pretty uniform accounts coming from eye witnesses that have been released that contradicts the IDF chronology.

It seems you have already made up your mind.

JJ posted a video in which everyone was saying 'people are injured' and you're sold without seeing, hearing, or even knowing what the injury was, or even how it happened.

 

[fallout]

Hasn't it already been established they were armed with paint-ball guns and were trained in non-lethal measures?

Do you really believe this bull? It's kinda gross you might do.

 

[IDB87]

Nothing is yet being brought out, Israel is still working to build a super defensive case, the AIPAC big fish are still deciding what to do to the US congress to carry this on. Israel is working on the thin line of keeping everything secret and liberating a number of detainees just to avoid a blatant and fair reason for being declared war upon. Nothing comes out officially: number of dead, number of injured, full lists, full releases of the videos that the israelis did take and etc.. And what about the content of all the cameras they confiscated from the crew as soon as they boarded the ship?

Come again? This is worthy of a war? Really?

 

[fallout]

Yet they still managed to kill at least 10 and injure over 80 with gunfire? Strange that...

I think the kooks will say in response that the fire used was from the guns of the terrorists of the flotilla.

 

[IDB87]

I think the kooks will say in response that the fire used was from the guns of the terrorists of the flotilla.

The guns the activists used were taken from the Commandos they managed to detain.

No one is claiming (that I'm aware of) that there were firearms aboard the MM.

 

[WildCat]

I didn't realise a "covenant" was such a powerful weapon that it could be an existential threat to a nuclear armed state that receives billions of dollars every year in military aid!

It's not, but it is the official document, a mission statement if you will, of the governing body of Gaza.

Explain to me why Hamas should get a seaport again?

 

[stilicho]

We don't know, because Israel still has them in detention. But you can bet that the true story WILL come out and at the moment there is a pretty uniform accounts coming from eye witnesses that have been released that contradicts the IDF chronology.

How many of these eyewitnesses contradict the Israeli government's offer to dock at Ashdod?