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Merged Israel Attacks Palestinian Aid Flotilla, According To Reports

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To all those who think Israeli troops went in shooting even before being confronted by the activists:

Do you really think that the troops boarding that ship had such different orders than th troops boarding the other ships?
What possible strategic objective could that have?
And what would those instructions have been? Squeeze off a couple of shots, then go in with paintball guns?
Do you really think that elite troops go in firing live ammunition and then get beaten up by a guy with a pipe?

Really?

Can we at least put this idiotic claim to rest?
I'm also amazed at some of the claims made here and why they have not put to rest after more than 20 thread pages.:jaw-dropp
Oh and be sure that soon another person will claim this same crazy idea again.
 
Okey Dokey Artichokey,

Lots and lots of nonsense flying around what should be a skeptical thread, but- well you know.

I've not read the entirety of this thread, because it's now at multiple pages and frankly, I've got things to do in real life. I will address those few arguments I've seen here, as well as those arguments I've seen elsewhere. So I'm going to describe the events in question in the clear sunlit sheen of black-letter humanitarian and international law, as it is commonly understood, interpreted, and applied.

The Mavi Marmara was in international waters at the time of the incident. Whether or not it was conceivably in Israel's Economic Exclusion Zone is irrelevent, since that defines only Israel's rights to harvest and otherwise draw resources from the sea. They are not permitted to enforce Israeli law on ships not flying Israeli colors. Nor are they permitted to harass, or otherwise move along ships loitering or in transit. EEZ does not equal territiorial waters.

The naval blockade itself is illegal, and even if it were not, the Israelis make no claim to sovereignty (which is a specific legal concept) over Gaza, which means that they do not have territorial claims over Gaza, which in turn finally means that they have no legal right to enforce Israeli laws off of the Gaza coast. Palestine need not be a state in order for Israel to lack a claim to Gaza's implied territorial waters (defined by convention as 12 nautical miles from the shore). Similarly even if Paraguay was not a state, it does not immediately or indisputably give Bolivia the right to police its shores. (I've chosen two land-locked countries for giggles.)

Attacking a ship bearing the flag of another country in international waters outside those few and very specific instances where the burden of proof rests with the raiding navy (drugs, etc.) is not a war crime in and of itself per se. (The fact they attacked a humanitarian vessel is, as I'll describe.) However it is a very clear act of war. Which is why Ireland has been stern in its warnings to Israel regarding the ship bearing its flag, the MV Rachel Corrie. It's also why the UN Security Council met, and why Turkey recalled its ambassador. Some have described it as piracy- it isn't. It isn't because it was attacked by ships commissioned by the Israeli Navy.

The videos provided by the IDF lack timestamps. The videos provided by IHH were broadcast live, by contrast. The IHH shipboard video and testimony is that Israel had shot and killed people well before boarding. The Israeli video of the commando descent lacks a timestamp, making it impossible to verify or deny. Regardless their is little doubt that it was the Israeli navy that illegally surrounded them and impeded their progress, and whether they fired or used stun grenades panicked the passengers who perceive, rightly or wrongly, the IDF as being willing to kill humanitarian aid workers. The crew panicked, and responded accordingly. It was the Israeli Navy's job not to instigate, and to behave appropriately and according to the rule of law. The Mavi Maramara did nothing illegal, and only responded to unwarranted and disproportionate aggression.

The Mavi Marmara was also a vessel carrying humanitarian supplies and well known to be carrying humanitarian supplies long before the incident. According to the Geneva conventions regarding the treatment of civilians in war, as well as those governing care of the sick and wounded, humanitarian aid and medical supplies are to be permitted to pass at all times. The Israeli government does not dispute now, nor did they dispute then, that IHH was an impartial humanitarian organization as understood and defined by the Geneva conventions. Meaning they have no right to stop them regardless of naval blockade. Depriving people of sustenance is a war crime, and it was Benjamin Netenyahu himself who stated that his intention was to place Palestinians "...on a diet." The nature of this act and that of collective punishment is forbidden under the fourth Geneva convention. This makes what Israel did, by raiding the vessel and impeding its progress, not only an act of war against Turkey, but a war crime in its own right.

Apologists for Israel have been very active in recent days, but they often cannot respond to the legal issues because these laws have been around for a long time, and are specifically designed to remove any gray areas that might lead to unnecessary conflict. The laws Israel chose to break are among the clearest, most pragmatic, and well put-together instances of international law. The laws and conventions pertaining to the seas are not joking matters.


I would also like to address the ridiculous accusations against Cleon. I recently signed onto this site, and I seem to recall a guideline, "Attack the argument, not the arguer," -or something like that. I've met him personally in real life, and no, not with his facespace or mybook group or whatever the hell it is people seem to have a problem with, but at the Atlanta Skepticamp and other local skeptical events. Accusing him of being in cahoots with, sympathy with, or otherwise making sweet, sweet love to Hamas is all kinds of hilarious- and I would add, a fairly extraordinary claim.

welcome to the forum, nice and interesting post.
 
I've not read the entirety of this thread, because it's now at multiple pages and frankly, I've got things to do in real life....
Yes, reading already addressed issues, which comprises of the brunt of your post have already been addressed in detail. But hey, why should you make an effort?

The Mavi Marmara was in international waters at the time of the incident. Whether or not it was conceivably in Israel's Economic Exclusion Zone is irrelevent, since that defines only Israel's rights to harvest and otherwise draw resources from the sea. They are not permitted to enforce Israeli law on ships not flying Israeli colors. Nor are they permitted to harass, or otherwise move along ships loitering or in transit. EEZ does not equal territiorial waters.
Not the definition of an exclusion zone. The Mavi Marmara was given ample time to change its course and its intention to break the naval blockade. When all the warnings were exhausted, the IDF had the right to detain this ship, as stated in the International maritime law given several times now. You can address these laws and statutes and take a bit of time to address the issue specifically.

The naval blockade itself is illegal, and even if it were not, the Israelis make no claim to sovereignty (which is a specific legal concept) over Gaza, which means that they do not have territorial claims over Gaza, which in turn finally means that they have no legal right to enforce Israeli laws off of the Gaza coast. Palestine need not be a state in order for Israel to lack a claim to Gaza's implied territorial waters (defined by convention as 12 nautical miles from the shore). Similarly even if Paraguay was not a state, it does not immediately or indisputably give Bolivia the right to police its shores. (I've chosen two land-locked countries for giggles.)
Started already with a false premise. Naval blockade is legal. Circumvents the humanitarian clause of San Remo. Territorial waters are not the demarcations of the naval blockade and the publically declared exclusion zone. Israel is in a state of armed conflict with Hamas which is the governing body of Gaza. Again, take the time to read.

Attacking a ship bearing the flag of another country in international waters outside those few and very specific instances where the burden of proof rests with the raiding navy (drugs, etc.) is not a war crime in and of itself per se. (The fact they attacked a humanitarian vessel is, as I'll describe.) However it is a very clear act of war. Which is why Ireland has been stern in its warnings to Israel regarding the ship bearing its flag, the MV Rachel Corrie. It's also why the UN Security Council met, and why Turkey recalled its ambassador. Some have described it as piracy- it isn't. It isn't because it was attacked by ships commissioned by the Israeli Navy.
Another false premise. The ship was boarded and detained, not attacked. Bearing another flag does not exclude the potential of boarding the ship if its running a naval blockade after repeated warnings. The activists on board were not afforded the rights of protected persons (regardless if its a humanitarian ship or not) once they attacked those boarding within their legal right to board. This applied to those who attacked those boarding, not all those aboard.

The videos provided by the IDF lack timestamps. The videos provided by IHH were broadcast live, by contrast. The IHH shipboard video and testimony is that Israel had shot and killed people well before boarding. The Israeli video of the commando descent lacks a timestamp, making it impossible to verify or deny. Regardless their is little doubt that it was the Israeli navy that illegally surrounded them and impeded their progress, and whether they fired or used stun grenades panicked the passengers who perceive, rightly or wrongly, the IDF as being willing to kill humanitarian aid workers. The crew panicked, and responded accordingly. It was the Israeli Navy's job not to instigate, and to behave appropriately and according to the rule of law. The Mavi Maramara did nothing illegal, and only responded to unwarranted and disproportionate aggression.
IHH video shows a helicopter hovering and IDF navy frigates riding along in close proximity of the vessel. There's no specific time shown in the cut footage that allows the viewer to see when the shooting started exactly.

What's illegal surrounding? I find it curious that posters put the term 'illegal' before a word as if it gives more credence to a their statement and has some legal bearing. The IDF's fault was not to clear the top deck when they boarded the vessel. This would've been possible with a combination of flash-bangs and tear gas.

State your definition of disproportionality, because this is a legal term that has been used previously without any legal bearing either.

Its the IDF that responded in kind to the beating, shooting and/or stabbing of its IDF boarding party. The activists committed repeated acts of provocation and left no option for the IDF but to defend themselves.

The Mavi Marmara was also a vessel carrying humanitarian supplies and well known to be carrying humanitarian supplies long before the incident. According to the Geneva conventions regarding the treatment of civilians in war, as well as those governing care of the sick and wounded, humanitarian aid and medical supplies are to be permitted to pass at all times. The Israeli government does not dispute now, nor did they dispute then, that IHH was an impartial humanitarian organization as understood and defined by the Geneva conventions. Meaning they have no right to stop them regardless of naval blockade. Depriving people of sustenance is a war crime, and it was Benjamin Netenyahu himself who stated that his intention was to place Palestinians "...on a diet." The nature of this act and that of collective punishment is forbidden under the fourth Geneva convention. This makes what Israel did, by raiding the vessel and impeding its progress, not only an act of war against Turkey, but a war crime in its own right.
IHH had their stated intentions, its primary motivator was to break the blockade. The humanitarian corridor has been in place since the blockade was imposed. This has also been stated. There's no deprivation of food stuffs either. There's no act of war, state your position to this as well.

Apologists for Israel have been very active in recent days, but they often cannot respond to the legal issues because these laws have been around for a long time, and are specifically designed to remove any gray areas that might lead to unnecessary conflict. The laws Israel chose to break are among the clearest, most pragmatic, and well put-together instances of international law. The laws and conventions pertaining to the seas are not joking matters.
Quite the contrary. The law is on Israel's side in this regard. I just find it entertaining that you don't see yourself as an apologist for the IHH.

I would also like to address the ridiculous accusations against Cleon. I recently signed onto this site, and I seem to recall a guideline, "Attack the argument, not the arguer," -or something like that. I've met him personally in real life, and no, not with his facespace or mybook group or whatever the hell it is people seem to have a problem with, but at the Atlanta Skepticamp and other local skeptical events. Accusing him of being in cahoots with, sympathy with, or otherwise making sweet, sweet love to Hamas is all kinds of hilarious- and I would add, a fairly extraordinary claim.
Ah, so you've been summoned by Cleon. One can establish the position of the arguer by bringing in past memberships to certain groups. Its a certain character profile. Its also a bit of a 'gray area' as you would put it.

To close off, I do find it entertaining the sheer hypocrisy with this paragraph and the above one where you pigeonhole a group as Israel apologists, but have an issue with having a friend or whatnot classified as a Hamas or IHH or whatnot apologist.

Could've at least spaced this out by a few paragraphs to hide this bit, not that it would help your argument.
 
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Stop saying that like you know how much that is.

Actually as a former OTR driver I am very familiar with tonnage,how about you sport?

Just so you know it is a little over 33,069,300 pounds give or take a pound or 2!
FYI 2204 pounds are equal to 1 ton.....guess you can consider your self ....OWNED!:cool:
 
Actually as a former OTR driver I am very familiar with tonnage,how about you sport?

Just so you know it is a little over 33,069,300 pounds give or take a pound or 2!
FYI 2204 pounds are equal to 1 ton.....guess you can consider your self ....OWNED!:cool:

Well, lah dee dah. But I meant in terms of understanding whether or not that is sufficient to meet the needs of the Palestinian population.
 
I may be out of my league here but to my knowledge there is no way short of taking out a satalite that the IDF could of cut off their sat!
Also when there are no people shot in the head what is she gonna say?
You can cut off satellite communications within a certain area.

What I find incredible is this statement is coming from a filmaker whom remarkably doesn't have a video camera, recording device or anything, even when the IDF forces were following the lead ship for 5 hrs.

A bit more credible than the wife of the organizer of this flotilla who said she saw the shootings even though she was on the first ship that was already detained in the Ashdod harbor when the boarding started. Or a bit more than the accusation of the ex-ambassador to Iraq interviewed by Clancy on CNN that the IDF parachuted onto the ship firing MAGs. :D
 
Well, lah dee dah. But I meant in terms of understanding whether or not that is sufficient to meet the needs of the Palestinian population.
So take a bit of time to understand more if this is sufficient before asking. Mind you, the Palestinians receive the largest amount per capita of humanitarian aid worldwide. Bit of a quagmire to say that its not sufficient ontop of the black market smuggling.
 
Actually as a former OTR driver I am very familiar with tonnage,how about you sport?

Just so you know it is a little over 33,069,300 pounds give or take a pound or 2!
FYI 2204 pounds are equal to 1 ton.....guess you can consider your self ....OWNED!:cool:

1337 :rolleyes:
 
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I am, actually. Well, in a way. I believe a world-wide ban on weapon manufacture would be a very good thing, and would solve so many things (including the Israel vs Palestina question). I do not, however, seriously propose it as an avenue for the Israeli to explore to get the Palestinians to stop murdering them with their missiles.



You misunderstand; the peace activists were using non-violent resistance methods such as refusing to comply and standing in the way, whereas the Israeli soldiers used the tazers, the paintball guns and their hands. In at least one case, they pushed a man to the ground and stepped on his face.




You right....the head takers are much better with swords!
Guess you havent bothered to see any video!
Your version dosent jive!
 
You right....the head takers are much better with swords!
Guess you havent bothered to see any video!
Your version dosent jive!

Where does your version come from?


And Israel's message reached every corner of the world as well, and that message was "Don't **** with us". A very practical message for any nation to send.

Bullying is normally regarded as a symptom of fear and insecurity.

~~~~~~~~~~~

B: So.. who started said violence again?

.


Israeli military commanders.

~~~~~~~~~~

Oh, you can try to run the blockade and not get shot, it's when you attack the boarding party with knives, wrenches, pipes, etc. that you have to watch out.

Any comments yet of the extreme Israeli violence that witnesses are now describing, Mr/Ms Tentative Conclusions?

~~~~~~~~~~

I know I might as well be speaking to a brick wall here:rolleyes:, but do you want to know what really happened? Have a look:


These men are clearly not expecting a fight, otherwise they would never rappel onto the boat in this manner.

When did this happen and what happened before this, Safe-Keeper?


~~~~~~~~~~

I see no one has answered this yet:

Who was lynched?

~~~~~~~~~~

From your post I can only say that either:
1. You're blind and deaf for not seeing what happened aboard the ship.

How do you know what happened aboard the ship.

Open your eyes and ears.

This is all before any shots were fired.

How do you know?

~~~~~~~~~~

Or, you know, the civilian population could actually rebel against HAMAS, a terrorist organization that has as its goal the complete destruction of Israel.

Or else?
 
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... the fallacies are so thick in this thread it's absurd.

Just to recur:
Guilt by association, poisoning the well, ad hominum, false dillema (so popular here), appeal to emotion..

Also, I'll be very surprised if MV Rachel Corrie is not boarded. Personally, after this, I'd just deploy _expecting_ a fight. It's clear what the results going to be either way and there's no real sane reason to play nice.

(ALSO: Yeah, those activists are sure unbiased. There was really no good way this could pan out, and politics in that area are so polarized (and polarizing!) that at this point, neither side is "good")
 
If there is signficant global controversy over whether use of force in a particular situation is legal, and the UN has explicitly told a country not to enforce its blockade, then enforcing it with force is at best reckless as to the legality of that act and at worse tantamount to declaring indifference to international law.



Where was the U.N. after the nearly 200 acts of violence by islamic nut jobs in the past 2 months?
Their silence is deafening!
 
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