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Merged Israel Attacks Palestinian Aid Flotilla, According To Reports

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Did you see the video of them using those things not to fix the engine of a ship, but to beat IDF soldiers who boarded it?

Are you claiming the IDF video was faked Kotatsu?


Legitimate self-defense. What would you do if people illegally attempted to board your ship having killed half a dozen people and injured dozens more?

Actually, dont answer that, you'd have hidden and surrendered. The point is, there is no recognised legal principle that requires one to surrender in this situation.
 
Was it the only way to send food there? Was it the most effective way? Egypt apparently offered to get it in there, if they couldn't trust the Israeli land routes option. Clearly it wasn't effective--do you think they really had a chance at running the blockade? Do you think they thought they had a chance at running the blockade? Obviously they failed at that, so what good was accomplished? Anybody fed?

The whole thing was meant to fail, it was an engineered confrontation for the purpose of creating "victims" to wallow self-righteously in PR. Has even that accomplished anything? Everybody who hates Israel still hates them, and everybody who supports Israel still supports them. Those who don't care still don't care.

But please don't let's pretend anybody actually expected them to win a confrontation with the IDF. The most naive possibly imagined that Israel wouldn't dare to touch them, as they are international intellectuals! and then they could land, distribute largesse, and congratulate themselves on a vast moral victory. But the realists would have know they stood no chance and would indeed be stopped. The purpose was never the aid, the purpose was publicity and uproar.

Nonviolent protest as a political tool. Highly effective, as Ghandi demonstrated.
 
They shouldn't allow anyone to transport weapons into Gaza, but they should allow people to transport everything else into Gaza. One way to prevent people trying from getting weapons into Gaza would be to work for a world-wide ban on weapon manufacture. Has Israel tried that avenue? Has anyone?
So until there's a "world-wide ban on weapons manufacture" Israel shouldn't be allowed to inspect the cargo headed to Gaza?

You're serious?

Really?

:boggled:

That is not what I heard on the radio interviews with the first kidnapped Swedes to return this morning. According to them, the Israeli on their ship attacked the peace activists who were using non-violent methods of resistance with tazers, paintball pellets, and their hands. It just didn't erupt into large-scale murder as it did on the Mavi Marmara.
By "attacked", you mean "forcibly removed", right? :rolleyes:
 
I don't know how sending food to malnourished people constitutes **** with Israel

If some group or other were firing rockets, say, from Germany (where I am) into neighbouring (and well armed) France I wouldn't be surprised to find myself spending a lot of time eating cold canned ravioli in the dark wearing a tin helmet.
If then asked by, say, my mayor if he should buy more rockets to invite airstrikes on my house or if I'd like to eat some real food .... decisions, decisions .. :rolleyes:
 
Was it the only way to send food there? Was it the most effective way? Egypt apparently offered to get it in there, if they couldn't trust the Israeli land routes option. Clearly it wasn't effective--do you think they really had a chance at running the blockade?

A few points here.

A. Previous attempts to run the blockade DID succeed so activist had reason to believe Israel might possibly relent and allow the flotilla through in order to save face internationally.

B. Yes, they were challenging the blockade and fully expected that the aid wouldn't get through, and if it did that would be an added bonus, the aim was to show the blockade for what it is. But NOBODY expected Israel would respond with quite this degree of violence and kill a yet to be determined number of civilians and injure upwards of 80.

C. Clearly it WAS effective, more effective than anyone could imagine, because the whole world now knows the level of desensitization the 40 year long occupation has wrought on Israel in that they think it is OK to respond to civil disobedience to this degree, we know all know (well, those of us that aren't blindly supporting Israel no matter what they do) that if Israel is prepared to do this to humanitarian activists, and somehoiw think it is normal and OK, then we can't imagine the nightmare Palestinian's have been living for the last forty years.
 
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Funny, blockade still seems to be there. Maybe the second flotilla should consist of Hollywood superstars! That would really impress everybody.

It seems to be far preferable as a form of protest to suicide bombing, and far more effective. It also makes the violence necessary in enforcing the occupation public, since access by reporters to the occupied areas is highly dangerous for journalists and difficult.
 
B. Yes, they were challenging the blockade and fully expected that the aid wouldn't get through, and if it did that would be an added bonus, the aim was to show the blockade for what it is. But NOBODY expected Israel would respond with quite this degree of violence and kill a yet to be determined number of civilians and injure upwards of 80.

C. Clearly it WAS effective, more effective than anyone could imagine, because the whole world now knows the level of desensitization the 40 year long occupation has wrought on Israel in that they think it is OK to respond to civil disobedience to this degree, we know all know (well, those of us that aren't blindly supporting Israel no matter what they do) that if Israel is prepared to do this to humanitarian activists, and somehoiw think it is normal and OK, then we can't imagine the nightmare Palestinian's have been living for the last forty years.

B: So.. who started said violence again?

C: Of course it was effective: incite violence - get some of your sheep slaughtered - claim victimhood - win the day. Well played.
 
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It is sick that a mother would use her own child for political cache in such a manner, even sicker is how well it seemed to work.
All criminals should just start carrying around babies, then they're completely unassailable, THINK OF THE CHILDREN!
"So I was robbing this bank, which is totally OK because it's an illegal bank, and then this SWAT team storms in and throws me to the floor and puts me in handcuffs, with complete disregard for my one-year daughter on my arm, who is so sensitive,and should never have to experience anything like this! I was treated like a criminal!"

Ugh...:covereyes

B. Yes, they were challenging the blockade and fully expected that the aid wouldn't get through, and if it did that would be an added bonus, the aim was to show the blockade for what it is.
Why? Who, exactly, thought it was there just for show? Did the "Aid Flotilla" people imagine that the international community believed it to be some kind of exceedingly lengthy Israeli blockade festival or perpetual warship parade or something?

But NOBODY expected Israel would respond with quite this degree of violence and kill a yet to be determined number of civilians and injure upwards of 80.
Then they were exceptionally stupid. When you throw yourself at commandos with pipes, knives and axes, they respond with violence. This is kinda a fact of life all over the world, and the level of naivete and ignorance required to assume otherwise is frankly astounding.

C. Clearly it WAS effective, more effective than anyone could imagine
Of course it was effective. The "hey, let's provoke a bunch of armed men to attack us and then portray them as vicious killers!" tactic has been a staple of activists for as long as I can remember. Sadly, it works wonders with people predisposed to condemn the people targeted. But now imagine this: you're a commando armed with a paint ball rifle, rappelling down to the deck of a boat. You're met with tangos armed with axes and knives, trying to kill you. You are badly outnumbered, and your comrades are already getting beaten up. Do you

a) Allow them to lynch you, or

b) Fight back?

No "On the Constitutional Bizzarro Kingdom of Hopping Lamas on Planet X, we dodge the question by babbling about how the blockade was illegal" option. Pick either A or B. Do you fight back or allow them to have their way with you, possibly resulting in your death?

Edit to do some reflecting:

Okay... so I've been following this thread since the beginning (yes, for a full thousand+ posts), and it's been a very interesting and disturbing read. Interesting because it's made me rethink a lot of what I thought about the Israel-Palestine spectacle. Disturbing because it showcases just how quickly people jump to the Israel Condemnation Bandwagon. It's pretty obvious that the people who jump into the thread and declare that "Israelis started killing people for no reason" haven't bothered to look up facts or critically examined the incident in any other way. Not that anyone can blame them, given a lot of media's fondness for reporting the Israel/Palestine conflict with a Palestinian bias.

I must say I am grateful for these people, though. I have two openly anti-Semitic (no, not the well-meaning "Israel needs to get her act together and treat Palestine better" kind, the actually anti-Semitic kind), and their nonsensical rantings about Israel, coupled with the ignorant ravings of the crowd here, has inspired me to look at the conflict with a more nuanced, balanced view. This may not have been the effect they hoped for (:D), but for all intents and purposes, I am very, very grateful for their help.
 
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A few points here.

A. Previous attempts to run the blockade DID succeed so activist had reason to believe Israel would relent and allow the flotilla through.

Oh, well, then, they should have just been let through then.

B. Yes, they were challenging the blockade and fully expected that the aid wouldn't get through, and if it did that would be an added bonus, the aim was to show the blockade for what it is. But NOBODY expected Israel would respond with quite this degree of violence and kill a yet to be determined number of civilians and injure upwards of 80.

I expected it. No nation can allow a bunch of foreigners to interfere with a military operation in its own territory. It's a breach of sovereignty. Nations can't let that sort of thing go, especially ones in conflict and surrounded by hostile neighbors. The same thing would happen if you messed around with those disputed islands in the Yellow Sea, or fooled around with the secessionist bits of Georgia.

And here's a "nobody could foresee!" prediction for the next incident: the casualties will be higher. Whether you like what Israel does or not, you can't expect to escape unscathed when you interfere with it.

C. Clearly it WAS effective, more effective than anyone could imagine,

Really? Friends of Israel remain friends. Enemies remain enemies. Critics continue to criticize. Blockade? Still there. I think you might be lacking in imagination if that's "more effective than anyone could imagine"!

because the whole world now knows the level of desensitization the 40 year long occupation has wrought on Israel

Anything new being said about said occupation, or same things said previously? I haven't heard any new criticism, just a new incident to repeat the same old ones.

in that they think it is OK to respond to civil disobedience

I think it only counts as civil disobedience if they were actually Israelis themselves. Foreigners messing around in other nations aren't protesting their own nations, they're protesting other people's nations.

to this degree, we know all know (well, those of us that aren't blindly supporting Israel no matter what they do) that if Israel is prepared to do this to humanitarian activists, and somehoiw think it is normal and OK, then we can't imagine the nightmare Palestinian's have been living for the last forty years.

Of course! You divide the world into "we all" who are good, and just, and kind, and intelligent, and share your views, versus "those who blindly support Israel no matter what", which is your very fair characterization of anyone who doesn't share your views. Definitely this boosts the credibility of your statements on the topic, and engenders much sympathy for the Palestinians.

For the record, I don't particularly care for Israel. I don't care whether it's right or wrong, any more than any other nation. (I don't suffer from the common delusion that nations are people and can be expected to act ethically rather than in their own self-interest.) My point is that it's a sovereign nation, with a strong military, and that defying it carries extremely anticipatable risks. Groups of individuals who choose to interfere in the military affairs of a nation are foolish, and doomed to fail (unless it's a very weak military and a very strong group, like Somalian warlords or revolutionary militias, etc). What they, or people watching the news, or posting on the internet about who is "right" or "wrong" is totally irrelevant to how things are, and how things will be.
 
B: So.. who started said violence again?

From eye-witness accounts, the IDF who were attacking the boat before any of those commando's hit the deck and the scuffles broke out. Plus, the illegal boarding of a vessel in international waters was in itself an act of violence

C: Of course it was effective: incite violence - get some of your sheep slaughtered - claim victimhood - win the day. Well played.

If by "incite" you mean provoking Israel by sending in a peaceful flotilla of aid to challenge their blockade, knowing that Israel would over react then, yes, I'm inclined to agree with you.
 
It seems to be far preferable as a form of protest to suicide bombing, and far more effective. It also makes the violence necessary in enforcing the occupation public, since access by reporters to the occupied areas is highly dangerous for journalists and difficult.

Oh, I agree, much preferable. The people getting violenced in this case, except for any children brought along, asked for it. Bombing victims are frequently innocent, in that they were minding their own business entirely and had no desire to **** with anyone.

I don't want to be menaced by the IDF, so you know what I do? I don't run any blockades. It's amazingly effective. I've been 100% successful in not being shot by the IDF so far.
 
Oh, I agree, much preferable. The people getting violenced in this case, except for any children brought along, asked for it. Bombing victims are frequently innocent, in that they were minding their own business entirely and had no desire to **** with anyone.

I don't want to be menaced by the IDF, so you know what I do? I don't run any blockades. It's amazingly effective. I've been 100% successful in not being shot by the IDF so far.

Oh, you can try to run the blockade and not get shot, it's when you attack the boarding party with knives, wrenches, pipes, etc. that you have to watch out.
 
Lets just assume for a second that the blockade is illegal and stopping the boats in international waters is illegal, and that Palestine has its own waters that the boats can legitimately enter without going through Israel's.

Assume those points.

Now tell me, what should people who want humanitarian supplies to be delivered to palestine do? The UN reports have all confirmed that more supplies are needed than are currently being delivered, and that Israel blocks movement of any supplies that can be used for construction.
 
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Oh, you can try to run the blockade and not get shot, it's when you attack the boarding party with knives, wrenches, pipes, etc. that you have to watch out.

I doubt that. As a matter of practicalities, it makes sense for at least a couple of casualties to occur, to help deter others. Someone with imagination might think twice about joining such activities if they knew there had been previous deaths, even if the odds were low in that the majority got out of it alive because of course, you might be the unlucky minority.
 
Concrete. Steel girders. Construction tools.

Not actually true, they aren't banned, they are restricted. It's expected that the requester proves what they are going to use it for before it is allowed in, but it has been let in multiple times even in the last 12 months, as you'd know if you actually bothered to read the thread.
 
Lets just assume for a second that the blockade is illegal and stopping the boats in international waters is illegal, and that Palestine has its own waters that the boats can legitimately enter without going through Israel's.

Assume those points.

Now tell me, what should people who want humanitarian supplies to be delivered to palestine do?

If Palestine isn't a state, how can it have it's own waters? If it does have them, making it a state, then your previous argument that the blockade was illegal because they aren't one fall over even more.

Personally since they have a government, I'd say that makes them a state even if others don't recognize them.
 
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