Merged Israel Attacks Palestinian Aid Flotilla, According To Reports

[Zach Aviv]

As far as I can tell, that's always been the case. All the Gazans need to do is sign a pact of non belligerence with Israel which would force the two state solution. Yet they refuse, preferring instead to "elect" a government committed to eradicating Israel.

Is constant war what the people of Palestine REALLY want ?

You completely naive to Jewish goal. You completely fooled by propaganda of two state solution. We Jews will never accept two state solution. Whatever Palestinians do we Jews persecute them into eventually leaving Land of Israel. Land of Israel belong to Jews. This is why we attack and kill people who help humanitarian for Gaza like ship of goods.

 

[quixotecoyote]

We could do that just as soon as you acknowledge that the the definition I listed as provided by your link is exactly what is going on here and is in fact, collective punishment. The whole thing stinks of it.

You posted the definition of a 'collective' which has as much relevance as saying the Palestinians are going to go grow artichokes and smoke dope.

So what crime are these Palestinians being punished for?

 

[Skeptic]

Can you cite the legal precedent for this claim?

World War II. The US collectively punished Germany and Japan for the actions of its government.

World War I. The US collectively punished Germany for the actions of its government.

The Civil War. Lincoln collectively punished the South for the actions of its government.

Every war whatever in any other case in modern history. One side, or usually both, collectively one another for the actions of their government.

Moral of the story: war bad, but only Israel is not allowed to actually fight a war, you know. When it does so, it's collective punishment.

 

[Stout]

what makes you think Israel would allow a peace-treaty with Gaza only?

Well, we appear to have two separate governments in one Palestine here, and it is Gaza that's under discussion. AFIK, there's no blockade, nor HAMAS in the WB.

the purpose of the Gaza embargo was to force the Palestinians to rise up against Hamas

And so they should, unless they want to keep living in a war zone.

The Palestinian people will NEVER betray their fellow Palestinian brothers, no matter how much food, fuel, and supplies Israel and Egypt keeps out.

What do you mean by betray? Give up on the destruction of Israel idea ?

Israel gambled...and they lost. Now the embargo must end.

So it would, if they'd sign a pact of non aggression. As it is, were weapons to come in if the blockade were lifted and used against Israel, we all know what Israel's response would be. So does any rational Palestinian.

If Israel does not end the embargo soon, I predict there will be more ships heading to Gaza with food and supplies, this time sponsored by European states. Any attack upon these ships would be seen as an act of war.

Maybe, Turkey has already made those types of allusions, but crossing a naval blockade would be an act of war against Israel. Which do you think would be the first aggressor nation ?

 

[Zach Aviv]

So what crime are the Palestinians being punished for?

Being Palestinian, inferior to Jews and taking up space in Land of Israel. Honest Jew is OK with admit to this. Jews still using victim story make Jews look stupid. We Jews have power to stop ship help to Palestinians and even kill them and allowed by West. We control West. You know this.

 

[Stout]

How brave of you to threaten the people of Palestine from your computer.

How. pray tell, do you get a threat against the people of Palestine out of that?

 

[theprestige]

Since Hamas was elected democratically, doesn't that make Gazans collectively responsible by definition, and--unlike other communities during wartime--totally deserving of collective punishment?

The way I see it, collective punishment of the Gazan people is only a problem if democracy itself is a problem, or if Gazans did not actually implement a democratic election.

So which is it? Is Hamas a corrupt and criminal organization, that stole the election in Gaza? Or is democracy a bankrupt institution that does not actually represent the will of the people? Or did Gazans intentionally choose to be collectively responsible for electing Hamas?

 

[thesyntaxera]

You posted the definition of a 'collective' which has as much relevance as saying the Palestinians are going to go grow artichokes and smoke dope.

So what crime are these Palestinians being punished for?

So you're saying that Palestinians don't fit this part of the definition: "Collectives are also characterised by attempts to share and exercise political and social power and to make decisions on a consensus-driven and egalitarian basis." ?

They appear to be collectively punished for the actions of the terrorist groups that reside in their territory. Todays activities, the giant wall, and the naval blockade are evidence of this. Duh.

 

[Skeptic]

By the way, you can see very clearly the difference, in this thread, between criticism of Israel and deligitimization of Israel.

Criticism: "Why did Israel operate in this way? They should have acted differently!".

Perhaps! I think none of us actually know what the other options were. I am not going to play armchair general (armchair admiral?) here. But certainly the bickering over this is not necessarily deligitimization of Israel, however misinformed the criticism might be

(Yes, I know, I know: uninformed criticism on an internet forum?!?!?! What is the world coming to?)

Deligitimization: "The brutal Israel murdered the poor peace-loving folks!", when in reality they are not "peace-loving" at all -- it's a "peace" operation led and organized by supporters of Hamas, whose goal is Israel's destruction and genocide, together with the usual gaggle of useful idiots.

The folks shouting about this, needless to say, have nothing to say about how the Israelis were attacked; or how the flotilla members chanted "Jews, remember Kureysh!" (where Muhammad massacred the Jewish population); of that the purpose of the whole operation is to break a blockade so as to support Hamas in its goal of destroying Israel; or how the "peace" activists refused to have any of the cargo passed to Gaza, or to send anything to the soldier held there by Hamas.

This isn't "criticism"; it's obvious and hypocritical attempt to deligitimize Israel by lionizing terrorist thugs whose goal is its destruction.

Which one of the posters in this thread belongs to which group? I think you all know, deep down.

 

[Skeptic]

By the way, two signs and/or chants from protests in Turkey (Israeli news sources reporting):

1). "You shall drown in blood for this murder!"

2). "Death to the murderous Israel!"

Irony is not their strong point, apparently.

 

[thesyntaxera]

Since Hamas was elected democratically, doesn't that make Gazans collectively responsible by definition, and--unlike other communities during wartime--totally deserving of collective punishment?

The way I see it, collective punishment of the Gazan people is only a problem if democracy itself is a problem, or if Gazans did not actually implement a democratic election.

So which is it? Is Hamas a corrupt and criminal organization, that stole the election in Gaza? Or is democracy a bankrupt institution that does not actually represent the will of the people? Or did Gazans intentionally choose to be collectively responsible for electing Hamas?

This is like saying that all Americans are collectively responsible for the Iraq, and Afghan wars...just because Bush was democratically elected. This isn't an either/or situation.

If you were in their shoes who would you have voted for?

 

[quixotecoyote]

So you're saying that Palestinians don't fit this part of the definition: "Collectives are also characterised by attempts to share and exercise political and social power and to make decisions on a consensus-driven and egalitarian basis." ?

I'm saying that it's a dishonest attempt to use the term collective punishment in the context of human rights violation and war crimes in a case where the population (collective) is suffering because another nation their government has sworn to destroy takes defensive measures and causes suffering.

They appear to be collectively punished for the actions of the terrorist groups that reside in their territory. Todays activities, the giant wall, and the naval blockade are evidence of this. Duh.

Once again, fallacy of equivocation. They as a collective are suffering, but it's not collective punishment.

Collective punishment is when you get punished because someone else commits a crime and your population needs to get whacked back into check. As mentioned, it's like situations where someone from village x shoots a soldier and so the soldiers round up and shoot 50 people from village x.

It's not when your nation swears to destroy your neighbor and your neighbor stops supplies from being given to you.

Once again, quit being weaselly.

 

[bit_pattern]

You wouldn't think from some of the comments here that Hamas exist as a response to a forty year long occupation

 

[lionking]

This is like saying that all Americans are collectively responsible for the Iraq, and Afghan wars...just because Bush was democratically elected. This isn't an either/or situation.

If you were in their shoes who would you have voted for?

Are you saying that people who vote in a terrorist organisation aimed at the destruction of Israel to should be immune from a reaction to that decision?

 

[lionking]

You wouldn't think from some of the comments here that Hamas exist as a response to a forty year long occupation

It also has the aim of destroying Israel.

 

[quixotecoyote]

Are you saying that people who vote in a terrorist organisation aimed at the destruction of Israel to should be immune from a reaction to that decision?

Or more amusingly, if Saddam's forces were 100x stronger than expected, he should only retaliate against americans who voted for bush?

And of course, back in the day, we should only have bombed German cities when we were sure we'd only hit citizens who voted for Hitler before he was appointed chancellor?

 

[Thunder]

Are you saying that people who vote in a terrorist organisation aimed at the destruction of Israel to should be immune from a reaction to that decision?

a total economic blockade is how you solve a political problem?

that's called terrorism, my friend. a total economic blockade against a civilian population in order to punish them or intimidate them into changing a political status quo..is called terrorism.

 

[Thunder]

33% of Germany voted for the Nazi party in 1933. Should 100% of Germany been punished for this vote?

 

[thesyntaxera]

I'm saying that it's a dishonest attempt to use the term collective punishment in the context of human rights violation and war crimes in a case where the population (collective) is suffering because another nation their government has sworn to destroy takes defensive measures and causes suffering.

So you are willingly contradicting the very legal definition you provided? Ok. Fair enough.

They as a collective are suffering, but it's not collective punishment.

Please explain this in some detail as it seems like you aren't really being all that consistent.

Collective punishment is when you get punished because someone else commits a crime and your population needs to get whacked back into check. As mentioned, it's like situations where someone from village x shoots a soldier and so the soldiers round up and shoot 50 people from village x.

So kind of like: some people from country y bomb inside country X, and country X builds a giant wall around country y and then prevents any humanitarian aid from getting in, something that everyone needs, all on the grounds that it could get into the hands of the folks that initially bombed country x.

Everyone is punished for the actions of the few. Exactly what the definition states, that you listed.

It's not when your nation swears to destroy your neighbor and your neighbor stops supplies from being given to you.

Nice simplification.

Once again, quit being weaselly.

Once again, start making sense.

 

[Stout]

You completely naive to Jewish goal. You completely fooled by propaganda of two state solution. We Jews will never accept two state solution. Whatever Palestinians do we Jews persecute them into eventually leaving Land of Israel. Land of Israel belong to Jews. This is why we attack and kill people who help humanitarian for Gaza like ship of goods.

No, not true.

Men from Israel come here to forum and say things about Israel. I sit quietly and ask internet if what men say about Israel is true, internet say yes, is true.

People who not like Israel also say things about Israel, I ask internet again, internet say this all hyperbole and rhetoric.

Me no have horse in this race, but men from Israel make better argument than those who wish to see Israel gone from planet.