Census Answers to Race

[slingblade]

Quite assuredly, nothing so far ..

Without my rhetorical questions, where would you go with your rhetorical answers ?

Yup, closed that mind right off, haven't ya? Well, that's your choice.

 

[Uncayimmy]

A nice story. It has nothing to do with the census.

Well, actually it does, Senex. Your inability to make the connection is not my fault. My ex had self-identified as White most of her life because, well, she looked White - fair skin, red hair, lived in a neighborhood with other "White" families. It wasn't until we discussed the hiring practices of the school system that she realized that as far as at least one government was concerned, she was Hispanic.

Local school districts have nothing whatsoever to do with the census. The census is a mouth shut not sharing information with any other government agency.

Really?

 

[Ladewig]

I usually write American myself on those sorts of questions. The beauty of that answer is that it doesn't matter what your skin color is and yet it still allows you to self-identify. You get the point across. You don't play along with the racial divisiveness.

You said that answering the race question is "play[ing] along with the racial divisiveness." I would still like to know if you consider this racial divisiveness to be intentional on the part of the government or unintentional.

 

[Senex]

Well, actually it does, Senex. Your inability to make the connection is not my fault. My ex had self-identified as White most of her life because, well, she looked White - fair skin, red hair, lived in a neighborhood with other "White" families. It wasn't until we discussed the hiring practices of the school system that she realized that as far as at least one government was concerned, she was Hispanic.

A compelling story. However the census doesn't care. They want to know after all your hand wringing what box or boxes did you decide to check. No other agency sees this information. If it will help to call yourself an eskimo on a job application in the future it will have not helped you to have called yourself one on the census form.

Really?

Personal information. You think they spend all this money not to provide raw data in a manner you can't identify a singe individual? What are you thinking? Give me one example of a person's personal information breached by the census. Ever.

The census takes this stuff as serious as can be taken.

 

[Complexity]

I wrote that the question was inappropriate and that I would not answer.

 

[Complexity]

But if the question was asked for a passport or the medic card, or the driver's license, I would answer "caucasian", because even thought the question is flawed, it's asked just a means to identify the person.

And it's probably illegal to nullify the answer.

I wouldn't. I don't give a damn what these people regard as 'legal'.

 

[Complexity]

I suppose you could have looked up the way the census defines race before getting snarky.

I don't care how they define 'race'.

I find the use of the notion to be harmful and outdated.

 

[Uncayimmy]

A compelling story. However the census doesn't care. They want to know after all your hand wringing what box or boxes did you decide to check. No other agency sees this information. If it will help to call yourself an eskimo on a job application in the future it will have not helped you to have called yourself one on the census form.

And therein lies a flaw. One tentacle of the government has guidelines for "race" identification while another does not. Still other tentacles rely upon this aggregate data without actually knowing what it really means.

Personal information. You think they spend all this money not to provide raw data in a manner you can't identify a singe individual? What are you thinking? Give me one example of a person's personal information breached by the census. Ever.

You said that the Census did not share the information gathered. They do. If you want to clarify your comment as meaning "personally identifiable" information, that's fine. There's no reason that the government couldn't decide to keep it all private except for the raw head counts used for congressional districts, so it's an important distinction.

Why does the Census ask for my name and the names of my family anyway? I don't get that.

The census takes this stuff as serious as can be taken.

I'm sure they do. So what?

 

[Taarkin]

Why does the Census ask for my name and the names of my family anyway? I don't get that.

To keep someone from being counted twice.

 

[Senex]

To keep someone from being counted twice.

Yes, thanks.

I'm tired of reading bad things about the people who deposit money into my checking account every week.

Seriously, the census people try really hard to do what they are supposed to do. It's a temporary job for me and I wouldn't defend them if they weren't worth defending. The census is important and the guy with the census PC bag walking down the street is doing god's work. Attractive young women should even consider pity sex on a hot day. It's the patriotic thing to do.

 

[Uncayimmy]

To keep someone from being counted twice.

Can you describe how that works?

 

[Senex]

Can you describe how that works?

Ooh, ooh, ask me, ask me.

Let's say there was a UncaYimmy counted on April 1 in the county jail for peeping on his neighbors. (The census was all over on April 1 -- if you were living at an obscure marina in a boat they found you.) Let's say he sent his form in on March 28th. UncaYimmy will not be counted twice do to the hard work of the census people.

 

[Uncayimmy]

Ooh, ooh, ask me, ask me.

Let's say there was a UncaYimmy counted on April 1 in the county jail for peeping on his neighbors. (The census was all over on April 1 -- if you were living at an obscure marina in a boat they found you.) Let's say he sent his form in on March 28th. UncaYimmy will not be counted twice do to the hard work of the census people.

You're not really giving the Census a good name.

* According to the Census website, it wasn't all over on April 1. If anything one could argue that it really didn't start until April 1 because the questions ask who was (past tense) living there on April 1. The site also says "it's not too late" to send in your form. A minor quibble.

* The Census website doesn't claim that the information is used for dupe checking. They say it's for helping respondents, "especially in large households," remember to count everybody. They also say it's used in case they need to contact the household if the information is incomplete.

* Excluding your example, how do they know that they are dupes and decide which one is correct? People have the same name, you know.

* In your specific example, it is my understanding that prisoners are counted in the district in which they are imprisoned (a political issue in my home state of Maryland as well as nationwide). So, from where is the Census getting the "home" address in order to determine there's a duplicate? Do they do something special with prisoners?

As far as the name thing goes, they already ask for date of birth. If that's not sufficient to solve the identity problem, they could also ask for initials. I really don't have any personal issues with giving them the names. I'm simply asking why they need it. So far, I'm not impressed.

 

[Cavemonster]

* Excluding your example, how do they know that they are dupes and decide which one is correct? People have the same name, you know.

As you state later, they also have your date of birth, race, and a whole bunch of other information. While people will share names, the possibility of sharing a full name and those other data and being a case of possible duplication are pretty darn low.

As far as the name thing goes, they already ask for date of birth. If that's not sufficient to solve the identity problem, they could also ask for initials. I really don't have any personal issues with giving them the names. I'm simply asking why they need it. So far, I'm not impressed.

How would the date of birth with no name attached confirm identity? There are more than 11,000 babies born each day in the US. Since there's only 26 letters in the alphabet, and use of them in names is fairly clustered (not too many Xaviers) there are only 626 combinations, probably more than half of those are very rare or unheard of. Which means that statistically, more than 4 people in the US will share every birthdate and set of initials. Of course the birthrate gets lower as you go back in time, but we're not even counting immigration yet, and since we're planning for the future, and two censuses on, the people born today will be 20, then these numbers are very valid.

But, above all that, you can't claim in your first point that names are insufficient to gauge identity for duplication purposes, then claim in your last point that initials are sufficient. That's blatantly contradictory. If initials are sufficient, then full names are even more fully so. If full names are not enough, then initials won't hack it.

 

[Uncayimmy]

As you state later, they also have your date of birth, race, and a whole bunch of other information. While people will share names, the possibility of sharing a full name and those other data and being a case of possible duplication are pretty darn low.

Let's clear something up first. The Census website does not say they are using this information for duplicate checking. They give other reasons for requesting the information. So, do you have a citation that says they are using it in this manner? Do you have some expertise with the Census where you claim authority to know this? Or are you just making an assumption?

Beyond that, what you seem to be telling me is that when they type in my details and click the Submit button, it searches the database to see if that same data has been entered before. Suppose it has: What happens next? What do they actually do? I suppose if everything is exactly the same such as several family members all matching up on both forms, they will say, "The odds of this being two different families is like 10,000,0000,000 to 1, so we'll just count them once. What if it's just one person on the form? How do they handle it?

Furthermore, how does this happen? I only received one form at my house. I suppose if I had an unoccupied second home that I visited at just the right time I could get two forms. The first question asks me how many people are living there as of April 1, and I would answer zero for all but one form I received. So, how does this situation arise and at what frequency?

How would the date of birth with no name attached confirm identity?

Easy. Problem is, you are forgetting the reason the Census states wanting the information, which is for the Census to contact you regarding incomplete information (or questions about it, which I take to mean handwriting or multiple boxes checked). They ask for the address and phone number on the form, right? So they show up or call me and say, "There is no race checked for person #2, which is listed as 'JB' born on 12-25-1984."

How is that not sufficient for their stated needs?

And as far as duplicate checking goes, I would say that initials along with all of the other information is adequate for dupe checking. I mean, really, how many White, non-hispanic JBs born on 12-25-1984 have a wife, KB born on 11-18-1985 and a son, XB, born on 4-15-2005?

But before we debate the adequacy of dupe checking, I just want to be sure that they are actually using it for that.

 

[slingblade]

Let's clear something up first. The Census website does not say they are using this information for duplicate checking. They give other reasons for requesting the information. So, do you have a citation that says they are using it in this manner? Do you have some expertise with the Census where you claim authority to know this? Or are you just making an assumption?

You're making enough for everyone. You should slow down a bit and give the other protesters a chance. Be fair.

Beyond that, what you seem to be telling me is that when they type in my details and click the Submit button, it searches the database to see if that same data has been entered before. Suppose it has: What happens next? What do they actually do? I suppose if everything is exactly the same such as several family members all matching up on both forms, they will say, "The odds of this being two different families is like 10,000,0000,000 to 1, so we'll just count them once. What if it's just one person on the form? How do they handle it?

It doesn't exactly work like that, not at the local level. How it works at the regional or central level, I wouldn't know, not being party to those levels.

Furthermore, how does this happen? I only received one form at my house. I suppose if I had an unoccupied second home that I visited at just the right time I could get two forms. The first question asks me how many people are living there as of April 1, and I would answer zero for all but one form I received. So, how does this situation arise and at what frequency?

That's the purpose of the April 1 date. You are counted where you are, or were, on that date. You fill out just one form; if you get others, however you get them, you should ignore them if you've filled out one already. At this point, however, you will not get any more forms in the mail. It's all enumerator visits or phone calls now.

Duplicates happen in a few ways: mostly, it's by address. Sometimes the computer printout lists the same address twice. We just eliminate one. Sometimes housing units change, and what was a multi-person dwelling becomes a single-family unit or vice-versa. What was a summer home becomes a full-time residence, or vice-versa. Dupes may be issued by error in that case.

Sometimes people hand an enumerator the form they filled out but didn't mail. The enumerator sends that form to the local office, and we mail it. Sometimes the person didn't fill out the first form, so the enumerator conducts a new interview and shreds the first, blank form. Those can be considered dupes, and they aren't processed.

But most dupes are simply address duplications, and we just eliminate the dupes as we find them. It happens. It's a big country.

Easy. Problem is, you are forgetting the reason the Census states wanting the information, which is for the Census to contact you regarding incomplete information (or questions about it, which I take to mean handwriting or multiple boxes checked). They ask for the address and phone number on the form, right? So they show up or call me and say, "There is no race checked for person #2, which is listed as 'JB' born on 12-25-1984."

We don't do it like that. No one at the local level calls you to get your answer on the questions you didn't answer, or refused to answer. You will be called if there's a notice of visit left for you, because that almost always means there's no record of anyone at a given address having been contacted yet, or that a response from that address hasn't been logged by a certain date, so we're checking back to be sure you weren't missed. It's okay for us to try to be sure we didn't miss anyone, isn't it?

But we don't compile forms and then call you back to demand you answer all the questions, or even that you answer them seriously. We accept whatever answers you give, however ridiculous or serious, and we even accept refusals. We only note that an address has generated a response, so we won't try to count them again.

I don't know if people are contacted at the regional or central levels.

How is that not sufficient for their stated needs?

If you had a clue how it works, you wouldn't even think of asking that. The actual methods we do use work well.

And as far as duplicate checking goes, I would say that initials along with all of the other information is adequate for dupe checking. I mean, really, how many White, non-hispanic JBs born on 12-25-1984 have a wife, KB born on 11-18-1985 and a son, XB, born on 4-15-2005?

At the local level, almost all we check is the address, as it's pretty much all we need to check. I don't know what may be done at regional or central office levels, however.

But before we debate the adequacy of dupe checking, I just want to be sure that they are actually using it for that.

It's all right; we've got it handled without you.

 

[Cavemonster]

Let's clear something up first. The Census website does not say they are using this information for duplicate checking. They give other reasons for requesting the information. So, do you have a citation that says they are using it in this manner? Do you have some expertise with the Census where you claim authority to know this? Or are you just making an assumption?

This is that same argument from ignorance you keep using. Look for the official census FAQ that comes up for most google searches as the first official census result for most typed questions about why the census does anything. It's not that hard.

Here

Why do you want our names?
We request names for the following reasons
-To help ensure that people are not counted twice in the census.

...

All your ranting and it was stated very plainly on the fairly short official FAQ that you should have read if you really have any curiosity.

And as far as duplicate checking goes, I would say that initials along with all of the other information is adequate for dupe checking. I mean, really, how many White, non-hispanic JBs born on 12-25-1984 have a wife, KB born on 11-18-1985 and a son, XB, born on 4-15-2005?

Probably very few, but remember the wife and kid are only listed if a residence is shared. As one instance, the millions of adults in prison would not have that information of spouse and child attached.

There are 93 million unmarried individuals over the age of 18. 51 million unmarried Americans are heads of household.

We're already looking at up to a quarter of Americans.

Add to that all the military personnel living on bases within the US, separate from family and every trial separation, etc etc, and you get a big chunk of people who don't have that corroborating evidence. Even worse, because obviously, likelyhood of being unmarried trends downward over time, the potential for error will be highly clustered in the lower age groups, who are already more mobile and harder to track for a lot of reasons.

I won't bother to answer your question as to EXACTLY what process is used. I don't need to know that to see it's effective anymore than I need to know exactly what brand of lubricant is used on landing gear to have a discussion about aviation. Once again, you can't be entirely incredulous that duplications can effectively be found with full names and suggest that initials would work at the same time. You haven't addressed that discrepancy in your arguments yet.

Furthermore, how does this happen? I only received one form at my house.

Really? Then you're in the minority. Go join one of the other census bashing threads where people are complaining about how many they got.

As an anecdotal example. I share two floors of a house with four people. Officially these are two separate apartments, the one person who sleeps upstairs use the kitchen/bathroom/social facilities downstairs, and the people who sleep downstairs use studio space upstairs. We decided to list everyone in the downstairs apartment, since we wanted to reflect that we were a 4 person household, and listed the upstairs as unoccupied.

We then received a reminder copy of the form for both apartments.
If we had had any sort of lack of communication between us, people could easily have been double counted, even triple counted if someone were really absent minded, or interpreted the reminder form as evidence that the original had for some reason not been sent out.

Millions of people have weird idiosynchratic situations just like this. Then there are divorces and separations in progress, people living on military bases, people living in multiple homeless shelters, runaway teenagers, spouses who don't talk to each other anymore, vacation homes, landlords who fill out forms on behalf of tennants, students who have an ambiguous real residence status, poor communication with roomates, and tend to be very affected by overwork and overpartying. As of 2000, that group alone accounted for about 17 million people, and it's only gone up since then.

 

[Taarkin]

* The Census website doesn't claim that the information is used for dupe checking. They say it's for helping respondents, "especially in large households," remember to count everybody.

That too. It's better to ask "How old was (flip) Timmy" than "how old was the ninth person you mentioned?"

They also say it's used in case they need to contact the household if the information is incomplete.

That's actually a different section. Yes, we have to ask the respondent's name twice. So make sure you wear two tinfoil hats when answering.

Furthermore, how does this happen? I only received one form at my house. I suppose if I had an unoccupied second home that I visited at just the right time I could get two forms. The first question asks me how many people are living there as of April 1, and I would answer zero for all but one form I received. So, how does this situation arise and at what frequency?

I met a guy who moved right before April 1, but wasn't sure if someone else did the census form at his former address. With his name, we can make sure he isn't double counted.

 

[Gazpacho]

I dunno. I suspect partly. Unless we can take a white baby and groom him environmentally to grow up with black skin, I think there has to be some bio component to race. I get the point-- most all believe nothing biologically important varies by race-- but I think it's disingenuous to claim that it's purely a social construct.

But it is, b. Of course skin color varies. Of course facial features vary. Of course these characteristics are hereditary. That's not race. Race is the idea that the traits mean something beyond themselves. That notion of meaning is 100% socially constructed.

p.s. I voted for the guy in my avatar.

Don't raise this point, even when provoked. It's like bragging that you have black friends.

 

[Uncayimmy]

This is that same argument from ignorance you keep using.

It's not an argument from ignorance to ask a question. I went to the Census site and the answer they gave on the Census form is the one I presented. I then asked for another source. It's not my fault the Census is inconsistent. It is, however, your fault for incorrectly accusing me of making an argument from ignorance.

Look for the official census FAQ that comes up for most google searches as the first official census result for most typed questions about why the census does anything. It's not that hard.

Type in Census Form. Go to the first link. Hover your mouse over question #5. The Census tells you right there why they want the information. So, there's no need to be prick about it.

I won't bother to answer your question as to EXACTLY what process is used. I don't need to know that to see it's effective anymore than I need to know exactly what brand of lubricant is used on landing gear to have a discussion about aviation. Once again, you can't be entirely incredulous that duplications can effectively be found with full names and suggest that initials would work at the same time. You haven't addressed that discrepancy in your arguments yet.

1) I never said they would work the same. That's your straw man.

2) I have not seen any evidence of the effectiveness of the current system one way or another.

3) I have not seen the extent of the "problem" it is trying to solve.

Without knowing that, I can't really render an opinion on whether they should be collecting names and DOB like they do.

Really? Then you're in the minority.

The majority of addresses received multiple Census forms? Really?

We then received a reminder copy of the form for both apartments.
If we had had any sort of lack of communication between us, people could easily have been double counted, even triple counted if someone were really absent minded, or interpreted the reminder form as evidence that the original had for some reason not been sent out.

Yeh, I get that. Your situation could be resolved without requiring full name and DOB. Somebody at the Census should have a pretty good idea how many times each decade they encounter problems where full name and DOB are required for resolution.