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Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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Mary: No matter who killed Meredith, the murder was not quick. There is no way she didn,t see who killed her. I,m sure Meredith fought back, and that,s why there was more than one killer, imo. Two different knives used as well. Meredith was not killed in her sleep.
 
I have a couple of questions if I may. If nothing else they should break up the monotony of the back-and-forth.

1) Barring a compelling reason, should we not accept the word of expert forensic scientists?

These are people who are paid for their expertise to provide evidence that convicts criminals every single day, and when there is not a camera crew around they are not much second guessed (pressed by defense lawyers yes, doubted by laymen not so much).

2) Just how much of the 'she's innocent' comes down to a pretty American girl being tried by uppity foreign types from a second rate nation with a weirdo legal system?


Sorry if those lead the points a little, I didn't want to spam multiple posts just for a few thoughts of my own.
 
If he wasn't sure she could I.D. him, why attack her in the first place? Why not just run out the front door?

Duh... having an upset stomach from those bad kebabs and the thrill of breaking and entering, plus the sight of a lone female obviously turned him on instantly... and to such an extend that he couldn't help himself. Hence the assault.

In the process he grows an extra set of arms to wield a second knife.

In case you didn't guess it... but Rudy is rather special. He can throw rocks through windows, and prevent the glass from blowing back. He can float/fly/levitate (take your pick) through the window without disturbing the glass on the sill. He can also change the size of his feet at will. I pressed I could probably come up with another few things that he can do that us normal mortals can't.

What I don't understand is this... given that he can do all of the above, why didn't he just wished away all the evidence that put him on the scene. Should have been easy as can be.
 
Duh... having an upset stomach from those bad kebabs and the thrill of breaking and entering, plus the sight of a lone female obviously turned him on instantly... and to such an extend that he couldn't help himself. Hence the assault.

What I find absolutely telling regarding the mental gymnastics to believe the "Lone Killer" theory is this:

The "Lone Wolf" theory involves some kind of turn-on similar to this: He broke in, was feeling sick, Meredith comes home, so he attacks her sexually (killing her before or after, whichever).

These same people who argue that this is what happened will turn around and claim that they don't believe the Prosecution theory that Amanda and Raffaele getting busy was a turn-on to Rudy because it's just "stupid" and "doesn't make any sense".


Duplicitous much?
 
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What I find absolutely telling regarding the mental gymnastics to believe the "Lone Killer" theory is this:

The "Lone Wolf" theory involves some kind of turn-on similar to this. He broke in, was feeling sick, Meredith comes home, so he attacks her sexually (killing her before or after, whichever).

These same people who argue that this is what happened will turn around and claim that they don't believe the Prosecution theory that Amanda and Raffaele getting busy was a turn-on to Rudy because it's just "stupid" and "doesn't make any sense".


Duplicitous much?

Perhaps it all comes down to identifying with one over the other?

She is 'like them', so they can't imagine someone like little Jill over the road being a monster. He sounds sinister though, you could believe him getting up to anything.
 
Perhaps it all comes down to identifying with one over the other?

She is 'like them', so they can't imagine someone like little Jill over the road being a monster. He sounds sinister though, you could believe him getting up to anything.

Except they can't believe he'd get up to the sounds/images of Raffaele/Amanda having a "good time"...
 
After he cleaned up, he went back in the room, went through Meredith's purse, took the cell phones, credit cards and possibly money and left.

When he left the room the second time, he stepped in blood with his left shoe. The door was open. He pulled the door closed and locked it with his right hand.


What I have said here is a very logical view of the crime scene based on the evidence. It takes elaborate plans by Amanda and Raffaele and theories of an impossible clean up effort to add Amanda and Raffaele to the crime.

The most logical conclusion, Amanda and Raffaele weren't there.


But what doesn't make sense is, if he locked the door, why? Why would he even care, and if for some reason he did, then why not lock that front door too, surely that would be more important than her door.

Plus, I have tried the door several times and there is no way you would pull the door shut with your left hand and you have to turn arround completely in order to lock it.
 
Good points, Sherlock. And, it's just plain ludicrous that they didn't call the police immediately. Perugia is a college town, and the police have probably been called out for far less. Amanda said in her e-mail that her roommates were very clean. Only she and Meredith shared the bathroom. An open door, blood in the bathroom, a ransacked room with a broken window. It would be the responsible thing to do, and to leave immediately. The person/persons could have still been in the cottage.
 
Hi capealladin,
In my opinion, the person who did not do what any responsible person person would do was Rudy Guede, who did not call for help as Meredith Kercher lay dying...

Of course your opinion does vary,
RWVBWL
 
Good points, Sherlock. And, it's just plain ludicrous that they didn't call the police immediately. Perugia is a college town, and the police have probably been called out for far less. Amanda said in her e-mail that her roommates were very clean. Only she and Meredith shared the bathroom. An open door, blood in the bathroom, a ransacked room with a broken window. It would be the responsible thing to do, and to leave immediately. The person/persons could have still been in the cottage.
Hello once more capealladin,
Question for you, since you sound like a college educated person from reading your posts.
Have you ever lived with 3 other guys or gals when you were in college?

I ask that, since if Amanda Knox was at her own house that she grew up in,
she would have probably noticed if something was outta whack at her place immediately.
But living in a foriegn college town, with new house mates, and a new boyfriend, would mean I bet, that she did not notice things as closely as she would if it was her own house, especially if she, as many pot smokers do, blazed after waking up that particular morning.

I have looked at the bathroom photo's, and there is no way that anyone but a paraniod roomie would call the police for a drop of blood or a lil' bit of blood on a bath mat, right away, in a communal living situation where everyone smokes pot!
RWVBWL
 
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I have looked at the bathroom photo's, and there is no way that anyone but a paraniod roomie would call the police for a drop of blood or a lil' bit of blood on a bath mat, right away, in a communal living situation where everyone smokes pot!

And what can cause paranoia? POT SMOKING!

Thus we can conclude she would have called the cops immediately, or at least after ordering a pizza.
 
He was certainly in a panic. He wasn't sufficiently psychic to know that AK and RS would stage a break-in in Filomena's room while he danced.
Hi stilicho,
So Rudy Guede goes dancing after the murders, while Amanda Knox stays there at the apartment and stages a break-in to throw everyone off her trail, cleans up all of the traces of her being a participant in her housemates murder, but decides not to clean up the bathroom as carefully in the many hours that passed overnight from when the killing took place until the police came inside that next day. Right!

If Amanda, a murderous stoner did a clean-up, that place would have been immaculent, I bet! I remember many days of my late teens and early 20's, when the surf sucked, and after a bong load or a fatty, just groovin' to some tunes and cleaning, dusting, organising my pad. As clean, if not cleaner then my Mormon Grandma Ruth would have done.

So let's see, the "icy veined" Amanda Knox is involved in Miss Kercher's murder, and just "hung out" afterwards, staged a cime scene, cleaned-up only the places that she she and her new boyfriend were, but decided not to clean the bathroom. Right...

And then, hours later, decide to come back home, take a shower in the slightly bloody bathroom, put on a white skirt, go back to her boyfriends and bring him there, again, to await the police who are bound to show up sometime soon. Sure...

I guess that daytime date that she was planning to go with Raffaele on would just have to wait until tomorrow or next week.
Hmmm...
RWVBWL
 
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Mary: No matter who killed Meredith, the murder was not quick. There is no way she didn,t see who killed her. I,m sure Meredith fought back, and that,s why there was more than one killer, imo. Two different knives used as well. Meredith was not killed in her sleep.

The "two different knives" story is not supported by the evidence. Two knives could conceivably have been used, but Ockham's Razor says one knife fits the evidence better.

It would help a great deal if the Amanda-is-guilty posters didn't feel free to state false or not-established claims as proven fact.

And the reason that Rudy, who left with blood on his hands, didn't leave any blood on the cell phones is...?

Just asking questions? A story that covers the facts is that Rudy went to the bathroom, washed his hands, and then went back to the murder room to get the cell phones and lock the door.

This is the kind of post that makes me feel like I'd dealing with a gang of entrenched partisans throwing talking points, rather than intelligent people capable of putting down the talking points and meeting the other side half way. If you'd been following the discussion you'd have seen a perfectly obvious way Rudy could have collected the cell phones without leaving blood on them. So why are you throwing this out as a challenge for the other side? It looks to me like you aren't interested in thinking about your own position, just parroting talking points without any self-reflection at all.

3] Your problem here is that RG is both brilliant and stupid at the same time. He did nothing to remove his handprints or footprints and didn't even quickly check to make sure he'd flushed the toilet. Yet he locked the door.

It's amusing that you are trying to appropriate one of our arguments and use it yourself, but locking a door on the way out or washing your hands (while leaving other evidence everywhere) is not brilliance. Nor has anybody attributed brilliance to Rudy. So you could call this a straw man, or just call it more evidence of confirmation bias since you're clutching at straws to come up with new ways of fitting Knox and Solecito up for the crime and new ways to exonerate Rudy.

I tried it several times and it's not credible.

The fact that three different (Amanda-is-guilty) posters all claim this is impossible just staggers me. I just tried it myself and it's a perfectly natural motion, and in fact I'm sure I've shut my own bedroom door that way in the past.

You really need to take a step back when you realise that you're arguing that a perfectly normal way of closing a door is in fact "not credible" or likely to injure a ballet dancer or whatever, just because you're clinging to a talking point that you think incriminates Knox. Especially when the talking point is just inane - the fact that the door was locked proves bugger all either way. Rudy could have locked it just as easily as Amanda and Raffaele, because there's nothing special about locking an ordinary door.

Let me repeat this: Making the door an issue is stupid.

However I do have a possible explanation:

But what doesn't make sense is, if he locked the door, why? Why would he even care, and if for some reason he did, then why not lock that front door too, surely that would be more important than her door.

Plus, I have tried the door several times and there is no way you would pull the door shut with your left hand and you have to turn arround completely in order to lock it.

Read what Bruce Fisher posted again, Sherlock Holmes. You aren't closing the door with your left hand.

Why would Guede even care to lock a door and leave his shoe prints? There was no point for him to delay his exit and go to try to establish an alibi dancing.

The Amanda-is-innocent theory is that Rudy's a disorganised killer: He didn't plan to kill Meredith, and he didn't have a plan to get away with killing Meredith. Having killed her he mucked about in her apartment briefly doing whatever seemed to make sense to him at the time and then left. I doubt he was thinking about the details of forensic science at the time, it seems more plausible that he just wanted to hide what he had done a bit.

Common sense notwithstanding, the evidence tells us that they called other people before they phoned the police. This, in itself, is not terribly suspicious. But it is suspicious that they waited so long to call the Carabinieri after knowing Filomena's original reaction.

It takes both Amanda and Raffaele to be incredibly dull to have done that. According to her story, Amanda first found the break-in and the signs something was wrong. She dilly-dallied around, taking a shower alone in a house in which there had apparently been an intrusion, and in an area known to be frequented by druggies. Brave woman! Nerves of steel when she wants to.

Then, still according to her, she went to get Raffaele and he, too, saw nothing disturbing enough to spring into action. It stretches credibility to accept that both of them were that dull.

This is pure armchair psychology, and you can make up your own stories from your armchair all night without it turning into evidence they committed a murder. For someone who pretends to know something about youth crime you also seem not to realise that youths who are drug users tend to avoid calling the authorities over to their house if they can possibly avoid it. More than one drug overdose victim has died just because their friends didn't want to call emergency services for fear that trouble with the police would result - in a case where Amanda and Raffaele didn't know that someone was dead or dying, I'm not particularly surprised that they didn't leap to call the police at the first sign of something amiss.

As for the bathmat print, I'm willing to accept that it was not sufficiently well-lit in the bathroom for either of them to notice it when they staged the scene. The version we have appears to have been photographed under bright light and possibly after a reagent had been applied to it so it stood out. They just didn't notice it during the cleanup.

The claim "they could have missed the footprint on the bathmat because it was dark" is plausible. The claim that "they could have missed the footprint on the bathmat while deliberately cleaning up a whole lot of other bloody footprints nearby" is very silly. Rudy's footprint on the bathmat was pretty obvious, it's not credible that anybody looking for evidence would miss it if they were cleaning up other evidence right next to it.

Really? Even though none of his DNA is present in the bathroom? Kevin Lowe claims this as proof of absence. Do you disagree?

People, engaging with Fulcanelli is pointless. I quote this bit just to emphasise that he has no compunction about making up further straw men to attribute to me even once I've made it clear I have no interest in engaging with him. Please just ignore the troll. Responding gives him encouragement and validation.
 
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Kevin, I'd just like to say that I find your arguments more compelling, and less abrasive, since you shifted avatar from Jim Carey to an attractive woman.

No relevance to this topic, but interesting from a sociological point of view none the less.
 
Hello, RW. I must assume that Rudi knew Meredith was already dead or beyond help. Nothing excuses him, in any event. He was up to no good that night. I don,t think you have to be exceptionally observant to know when something isn't right. It's not the bit of blood. The door was open. First alert. Then blood. Then the ransacked room. Then the broken window. When she spoke on the phone to her roommate, she said: We don't know where Meredith is. Maybe something tragic has happened to her. She ran downstairs to the boys place. Ran outside to try and see in the window. In any city in the world, bad things happen. I don't follow that she would be less concerned because she was in a new town, with a new boyfriend. She was concerned enough, after just seeing the bit of blood and the open door, to go and collect Raff. And that was before she saw Filomena's room.
 
And what can cause paranoia? POT SMOKING!

Thus we can conclude she would have called the cops immediately, or at least after ordering a pizza.
Hi Jeckyll's Guest,
Since I have not met you yet, welcome to JREF.

Question for you:
Have you seen the bathroom photographs?
Do you think that a young college gal who liked smoking pot, as her other housemates did also, SHOULD have called the police immediately from seeing a little blood in her shared bathroom? Like as soon as she went in there that morning?

Our opinions may differ,
but young pot smokers generally DO NOT like calling or talking with the police.

I personally would have just thought my housemate had cut herself, and that it was no biggie...
Hmmm,
RWVBWL
 
Good evening, Kevin. I have read and this has been posted before, and has not been refuted, if memory serves correctly, that one or some of the wounds could not have been made with just one knife. Perhaps some one else on this thread can give the exact references.
 
Question for you:
Do you think that a young college gal who liked smoking pot, as her other housemates did also, SHOULD have called the police immediately from seeing a little blood in her shared bathroom? Like as soon as she went in there that morning?

To answer your precise question:

No, in my experience college kids that smoke dope would be the types to avoid calling the police out to anything less than a maniac with a chainsaw coming through the window.
 
Hello, RW. I must assume that Rudi knew Meredith was already dead or beyond help. Nothing excuses him, in any event. He was up to no good that night. I don,t think you have to be exceptionally observant to know when something isn't right. It's not the bit of blood. The door was open. First alert. Then blood. Then the ransacked room. Then the broken window. When she spoke on the phone to her roommate, she said: We don't know where Meredith is. Maybe something tragic has happened to her. She ran downstairs to the boys place. Ran outside to try and see in the window. In any city in the world, bad things happen. I don't follow that she would be less concerned because she was in a new town, with a new boyfriend. She was concerned enough, after just seeing the bit of blood and the open door, to go and collect Raff. And that was before she saw Filomena's room.
Hi capealladin,
I believe from what I have read that Miss knox did not see everything all at once, hence it does sense that she was not that concerned, yet. If she is indeed innocent of any involvement though, you can see her worry start to build as she figures stuff out...

As far as the open door to the apartment goes, if I came home at 10:30pm at night to grab a quick shower and a change of clothing before heading someplace that I had plans to be at, and my door was wide open and there was a lil' blood in my shared bathroom, I would be a bit more worried, but still would just have thought my housemate had gotten cut, and went somewhere to have to get help.
I would not think anything sinister, yet.

Depending upon my schedule, I would have tried calling that person afterwards to see what happened to them.

But coming home at 10:30am and seeing the door open and a lil' blood in my communal bathroom wouldn't especially raise too many alarm bells, to me, as it didn't with Amanda Knox, I guess, yet.
RWVBWL
 
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It is also surprising that there was hardly any of Amanda's normal amount of dna in a house she lived in. A fingerprint on a glass where she and Raffaele had eaten lunch. And if she had taken a shower, changed clothes, don't you think there would have been fresh dna? It is also the lack of normal dna that confounds me.
 
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