Anti-English discrimination in Quebec

[Cleon]

FWIW, we had several Quebecois with us during the last Amazing Adventure, including a Montreal firefighter. I do know that, whatever else may be the case, emergency services are 100% bilingual; he was telling us during one conversation that when they answer the phone the first thing they say is "Francais/English?" And then carry on in whichever language.

 

[Pardalis]

Your "disappearance"? Were there roving gangs of pro-English death squads exterminating all french speakers?

Funny.

I'm talking slow assimilation.

Last time I checked, a person's survival wasn't tied to the language they spoke.

That's because I'm not talking about persons, but a culture.

Boy you are thick headed.

I never claimed that English would be threatened with extinction, either in Quebec or North america as a whole. But its an issue of personal freedom. I should have the right to do business in whatever language I choose, and I should have the right to educate my kids in whatever language I choose, without the government telling me "no" just because a group of people doesn't understand that the culture they are attached to will be changing anyways.

Why do you choose English? If languages are of no issue to you, then French or English shouldn't matter, right?

I know a lot about Quebec culture. I chose those rather obvious stereotypes because they'd be things that most people would identify (rightly or wrongly) as being "Quebec-oriented".

No, I think you chose those stereotypes because you wanted to offend.

When referring to English Canadian culture, I made sure to choose the most beautiful representatives I could think of off the top of my head, like Lightfoot and Cohen, because I did not want to offend.

You chose Labatt 50 and poutine.

You were demeaning, while I was conciliatory.

I care about what brings me enjoyment, and what enhances humanity. Having a group of people subverting individual freedoms in order to protect a culture does nothing to enhance humanity.

Oh please. English is doing fine.

A change in language usage/culture should be directed by individual preferences, not by government decree.

People elect the government, isn't that the same?

Someone transported from the early 1900s would have trouble recognizing much of the culture of today.

I'm not that sure about that. They would find intrinsic similarities, traditions don't die out.

Actually, I think Natives should act to preserve their way of life

And what should they do, exactly, especially when their numbers are going down?

 

[Almo]

That strikes me as hypocritical too. It's possible the person can't speak English, which isn't unusual if you consider the reverse scenario - i.e., calling up, say, the Alberta government about your Alberta taxes and finding that the person on the phone will not (can't) speak to you in French.

Seriously, how many other provinces do you think offer service in French? Likely quite a bit in Ontario, obviously New Brunswick, and perhaps Manitoba. I suspect a francophone is out of luck elsewhere.

http://www.canada.ca/

http://www.canada.ca/accueil.html

http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/fra/sc/nas/index.shtml

Looks to me like even a cursory glance at the Canadian Government's website shows that it is bilingual. If it is in fact true that you can't get French spoken by government officials in Alberta, then that is wrong too. Canada is officially a bilingual country. That should mean that at least when dealing with the government and required things like paying taxes that I should be able to get service in one of the official languages to avoid errors.

 

[Pardalis]

FWIW, we had several Quebecois with us during the last Amazing Adventure, including a Montreal firefighter. I do know that, whatever else may be the case, emergency services are 100% bilingual; he was telling us during one conversation that when they answer the phone the first thing they say is "Francais/English?" And then carry on in whichever language.

That's the same for everything else, any service everywhere asks you what language do you want to be served in.

I even saw ATM machines asking if you want Portuguese or Mandarin.

 

[D'rok]

http://www.canada.ca/

http://www.canada.ca/accueil.html

http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/fra/sc/nas/index.shtml

Looks to me like even a cursory glance at the Canadian Government's website shows that it is bilingual.

Well, duh. We were talking about the provincial governments, remember? The Charter requires the federal government to be bilingual. It is silent about the provincial governments except for New Brunswick.

If it is in fact true that you can't get French spoken by government officials in Alberta, then that is wrong too. Canada is officially a bilingual country. That should mean that at least when dealing with the government and required things like paying taxes that I should be able to get service in one of the official languages to avoid errors.

Federalism. Division of power. The federal government and the provincial governments are not the same entity. Surely you know this?

Having said that, it is probably possible to make a Charter argument that provincial governments should provide service in both languages. The fact is that they generally don't provide such services (except for new Brunswick), and the only complaints tend to come from anglos in Quebec.

Boo hoo.

 

[Canadian712]

Anglophones have their rights assured, they can have service in any of the two languages if they wish, anywhere.

Outside Montreal, good luck finding someone who can properly greet you in English.

No it's not. Making French the official language doesn't mean that English is "banned" as a language.

It's banned as an official language. But thanks for clarifying that bilingualism is recognized.

The law is that they post their signs in both languages.

English must be 50% smaller and some people are complaining that English is there at all.

Not strangle. We only want the immigrant population to choose French over english, for our own survival.

Nothing justifies restricting someone's individual freedom. Can you imagine the outrage if the same policies were imposed on Francophones outside Quebec to protect the English culture? You can't force a language down someone's throat.

And you are an idiot.

If Jacques Parizeau's "money and the ethnic vote" is not racist I don't know what is. There's also the anti-Semitic comment by PQ candidate Yves Michaud, and was also condemned by Lucien Bouchard. Jean Charest has made it clear on many occasions that he's no friend of the anglos. Just a few examples.

 

[Pardalis]

Outside Montreal, good luck finding someone who can properly greet you in English.

They will at least try.

It's banned as an official language. But thanks for clarifying that bilingualism is recognized.

It's something you should have already known about. What have you been doing the last 18 years?

English must be 50% smaller and some people are complaining that English is there at all.

I agree that it's a bit of a ridiculous legislation.

Nothing justifies restricting someone's individual freedom. Can you imagine the outrage if the same policies were imposed on Francophones outside Quebec to protect the English culture? You can't force a language down someone's throat.

No, but when you go to live somewhere, you try to abide with the rules of that place. If I go to Germany, I will have to accept German as the official language.

If Jacques Parizeau's "money and the ethnic vote"

Here we go...

Jean Charest has made it clear on many occasions that he's no friend of the anglos.

 

[D'rok]

I did a quick scan of provincial government websites. Here are the results:

- Quebec, Manitoba, Ontario and New Brunswick have full French/English versions of their sites.
- Nova Scotia and Newfoundland have sections for some service in French
- BC, Alberta, Sask, and PEI are all English

Make of that what you will.

 

[Segnosaur]

The rights of English speakers are not being trampled on in Quebec. To assert that they are is to debase the term "right" into a catch-all for childish entitlement.

The laws forcing me to use a particular language on signs/in the work place is seen as many as violating my right to free speech.

Forcing a parent to educate their children in French, even if they have a reasonable desire or need to educate their children in English (and assuming the infrastructure is in place to do so) is violating the rights of parents to raise kids as they see fit.

Now, granted, its not as horrible of an abuse of rights as the death squads in Chili, or the subversion of free speech in places like Saudi Arabia (and yes, the Quebec government has loosened up some of the laws over the past decade or 2), but that doesn't mean that rights aren't being violated.

And keep in mind that the United Nations itself has criticized the Quebec government over its language laws.

No. You are flat out wrong. You have a constitutional right to interact with the federal government (i.e., to receive services and to communicate) in either French or English, and to receive minority language education in your province. You do not have a constitutional right to anglicize Quebec civil society. That means that a store displaying a sign with French predominant over English, or with no English at all, is in no way a violation of your rights.

There are a couple of issues here:

First of all, as I mentioned before, telling me I can't have an English only sign is a violation of my freedom of speech (although not as significant as, lets say the free speech abuses in Saudi Arabia).

Secondly, keep in mind that not all provisions of Quebec's language laws have been tested in the Supreme court, so its not always easy to say what is constitutional and what is not.

(I could also point out that the Canadian constitution is not always a good measure of individual rights, given things like the Notwithstanding clause, as well as measures allowing personal rights to be overridden if for the 'public good'. However, that would risk derailing the thread.)

-Most Quebec politicians are known racists

On to ignore you go. Your ignorance is merely a mask for hatred and bigotry.

I think canada712 went too far when he said 'most Quebec politicians are racist'. I'm sure the majority of them are decent people (both on the separatist side and the federalist side.)

However, remember the post-referendum speech when Parizeau made a statement about "Money and the ethnic vote", a statement widely seen as racist. Not sure whether Parizeau actually is racist, but comments like that certainly do give people cause to think there might be negative elements in the separatist movement.

 

[D'rok]

The laws forcing me to use a particular language on signs/in the work place is seen as many as violating my right to free speech.

Forcing a parent to educate their children in French, even if they have a reasonable desire or need to educate their children in English (and assuming the infrastructure is in place to do so) is violating the rights of parents to raise kids as they see fit.

Now, granted, its not as horrible of an abuse of rights as the death squads in Chili, or the subversion of free speech in places like Saudi Arabia (and yes, the Quebec government has loosened up some of the laws over the past decade or 2), but that doesn't mean that rights aren't being violated.

And keep in mind that the United Nations itself has criticized the Quebec government over its language laws.


There are a couple of issues here:

First of all, as I mentioned before, telling me I can't have an English only sign is a violation of my freedom of speech (although not as significant as, lets say the free speech abuses in Saudi Arabia).

Secondly, keep in mind that not all provisions of Quebec's language laws have been tested in the Supreme court, so its not always easy to say what is constitutional and what is not.

(I could also point out that the Canadian constitution is not always a good measure of individual rights, given things like the Notwithstanding clause, as well as measures allowing personal rights to be overridden if for the 'public good'. However, that would risk derailing the thread.)



I think canada712 went too far when he said 'most Quebec politicians are racist'. I'm sure the majority of them are decent people (both on the separatist side and the federalist side.)

However, remember the post-referendum speech when Parizeau made a statement about "Money and the ethnic vote", a statement widely seen as racist. Not sure whether Parizeau actually is racist, but comments like that certainly do give people cause to think there might be negative elements in the separatist movement.

You are simply making the argument that the Canadian version of rights is not your personal idea of rights. This is irrelevant and does precisely what I said - it debases the term "right" into an entitlement.

Parizeau is a racist. And where is he now? That speech ended his career.

 

[Pardalis]

Parizeau's first wife was a Polish Jew, BTW. He's an old disgruntled fart, but not necessarily a racist. He could have put it more gently, but the "money" referred to Option Canada's illegal financing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Option_Canada
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sponsorship_Scandal

and the "ethnic vote" referred to Canada increasing the new citizenship a month before the referendum, knowing full well that immigrants do not know about the dispute, and do not wish to break up a country they have just entered, therefore obtaining new votes for the "No":

Statistics compiled by Citizenship and Immigration Canada show that some 43,855 new Quebecers obtained their Canadian citizenship during 1995. About one quarter of these (11,429) were granted their citizenship during the month of October. The data also shows an increase in certificate issuances by 87% between 1993 and 1995. The year 1996 saw a drop of 39%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_independence_referendum,_1995#Citizenship_and_Immigration_Canada

Of course Canadian712 was three at the time, so he wouldn't know about that, only what his parents told him.

 

[Almo]

In case you [D'rok] missed that I said this:

If it is in fact true that you can't get French spoken by government officials in Alberta, then that is wrong too.

 

[Segnosaur]

Your "disappearance"? Were there roving gangs of pro-English death squads exterminating all french speakers?

Funny.
I'm talking slow assimilation.

Last time I checked, a person's survival wasn't tied to the language they spoke.

That's because I'm not talking about persons, but a culture.
Boy you are thick headed.

I'm not being 'thick headed'. I'm trying to emphasize my point...

If everyone in Quebec decided they'd prefer to speak english (and French died out in a generation or 2), not one life would be lost, you would still get people composing music, writing songs, and the people would be just as happy and culturally enriched as they are now.

Why do you choose English? If languages are of no issue to you, then French or English shouldn't matter, right?

I choose english (well, my parents did when they raised me/sent me to school) because it was seen as the best alternative for interacting in the society I grew up in, and because it is the best language for my employment.

The point is, it was a personal choice. Nobody from the government came and said "You know, you want to educate your child in English, but we're going to force him to learn french".

I know a lot about Quebec culture. I chose those rather obvious stereotypes because they'd be things that most people would identify (rightly or wrongly) as being "Quebec-oriented".

No, I think you chose those stereotypes because you wanted to offend.

Actually, that was just a side-benefit.

When referring to English Canadian culture, I made sure to choose the most beautiful representatives I could think of off the top of my head, like Lightfoot and Cohen, because I did not want to offend.

You chose Labatt 50 and poutine.

Umm.... how do you know that I find holding up Cohen as a sample of English Culture isn't as offensive as me associating Poutine with Quebec is to you?

The fact that many Canadians eat poutine (according to Wikipedia it originated in Quebec) shows that not everyone feels that it is something to be condemned.

I care about what brings me enjoyment, and what enhances humanity. Having a group of people subverting individual freedoms in order to protect a culture does nothing to enhance humanity.

Oh please. English is doing fine.

Straw man... I never claimed that English wasn't doing well. I said that protecting a particular culture didn't enhance humanity (in fact, it can throw up barriers to understanding our fellow man).

A change in language usage/culture should be directed by individual preferences, not by government decree.

People elect the government, isn't that the same?

Nope. We have things like constitutions and court systems to ensure that, while people can elect a government, its ability to dictate what goes on in an individual's life is limited. Otherwise, you can end up with a case of "tyranny of the masses".

And what should they do, exactly, especially when their numbers are going down?

Organize clubs with like-minded people. Start a video log of people giving their experiences. Teach their kids about the old culture.

But whatever they do, it should be their own personal choice to do so. It should not be the government stepping in and telling the person "your culture is disappearing so we're going to force you and your children to adopt native culture".

Someday, a lot of native cultures will vanish. That is neither good nor bad. It will be replaced by something else (possibly something unique, possibly they will be assimilated.) Either way, their descendants will probably continue to live full, rewarding lives.

 

[D'rok]

In case you [D'rok] missed that I said this:

I don't think it's wrong. I think it's just a fact of life in Canada.

 

[Segnosaur]

(I could also point out that the Canadian constitution is not always a good measure of individual rights, given things like the Notwithstanding clause, as well as measures allowing personal rights to be overridden if for the 'public good'. However, that would risk derailing the thread.)

You are simply making the argument that the Canadian version of rights is not your personal idea of rights. This is irrelevant and does precisely what I said - it debases the term "right" into an entitlement.

So, does that mean you are completely happy with the Canadian constitution?

You don't think invoking the "notwithstanding" clause violates individual rights?

 

[Pardalis]

If everyone in Quebec decided they'd prefer to speak english (and French died out in a generation or 2), not one life would be lost

No body is talking about people's lives.

I'm talking about the life of a culture. Is your brain completely unable to tell the difference?

I choose english (well, my parents did when they raised me/sent me to school) because it was seen as the best alternative for interacting in the society I grew up in, and because it is the best language for my employment.

And so is French in Québec.

The point is, it was a personal choice.

No it's not, you just said you chose English because of your parents, and your environment.

Umm.... how do you know that I find holding up Cohen as a sample of English Culture isn't as offensive as me associating Poutine with Quebec is to you?

Lightfoot and Cohen are great poets and songwriters, poutine is a fast food dish.

Come on. Are you playing with me?

Don't you know anything else about my culture?

Straw man... I never claimed that English wasn't doing well. I said that protecting a particular culture didn't enhance humanity (in fact, it can throw up barriers to understanding our fellow man).

Comment a été ta semaine?

Organize clubs with like-minded people. Start a video log of people giving their experiences. Teach their kids about the old culture.

And what if the younger generations keep losing interest, if nobody around them speak the old language, and practice their old ways, why would the younger generations be interested?

Bill 101 made sure the environment remained French, so that people constantly live in French.

Someday, a lot of native cultures will vanish. That is neither good nor bad. It will be replaced by something else (possibly something unique, possibly they will be assimilated.) Either way, their descendants will probably continue to live full, rewarding lives.

And again, nobody is talking about life or the quality of life of individuals. We're talking about culture, a particular way of seeing things.

You are being thick headed.

 

[D'rok]

Parizeau's first wife was a Polish Jew, BTW. He's an old disgruntled fart, but not necessarily a racist. He could have put it more gently, but the "money" referred to Option Canada's illegal financing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Option_Canada
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sponsorship_Scandal

and the "ethnic vote" referred to Canada increasing the new citizenship a month before the referendum, knowing full well that immigrants do not know about the dispute, and do not wish to break up a country they have just entered, therefore obtaining new votes for the "No":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_independence_referendum,_1995#Citizenship_and_Immigration_Canada

Of course Canadian712 was three at the time, so he wouldn't know about that, only what his parents told him.

I'm deeply distrustful of Parizeau for some not-quite rational reasons. I think he is whatever you call the French Catholic version of a WASP. I see him as the mirror image of my WASP Grandfather, who was the WASPiest WASP who ever WASPed around WASPtown. (The man was born in Edmonton, but he had a den with a portait of QE II above one of Churchill. He flew the Red Ensign instead of the Maple Leaf. He became an accountant because his mother told him it was his duty. And he was a righteous old bigot).

Parizeau is not exactly an enlightened, modern man, in my estimation.

 

[Pardalis]

I'm deeply distrustful of Parizeau for some not-quite rational reasons. I think he is whatever you call the French Catholic version of a WASP. I see him as the mirror image of my WASP Grandfather, who was the WASPiest WASP who ever WASPed around WASPtown. (The man was born in Edmonton, but he had a den with a portait of QE II above one of Churchill. He flew the Red Ensign instead of the Maple Leaf. He became an accountant because his mother told him it was his duty. And he was a righteous old bigot).

Parizeau is not exactly an enlightened, modern man, in my estimation.

I agree. I don't agree with what he said on that day, he was very upset and acted like a sorry loser, I think he was wrong in putting the blame solely on those two things (even though they played some part), and he pissed off alot of ethnic communities that did vote for the "yes".

But racist is too strong a word.

 

[D'rok]

So, does that mean you are completely happy with the Canadian constitution?

Pretty much. I'm not an idealist. It is a darn good constitution. I like the addition of checks and balances and minority group rights. I don't want to live in a completely individualistic society.

You don't think invoking the "notwithstanding" clause violates individual rights?

Not at all. Do you consider democracy to be a right? I do. If so, why should nine un-elected old white judges get to over-rule Parliament? The notwithstanding clause simply restores some semblance of parliamentary sovereignty. It is politically impossible to use (outside of Quebec at any rate) for anything other than really trivial non-controversial purposes, or for vitally important national issues that for whatever reason the courts are obstructing. The former uses have occurred. The latter has yet to occur, but it is important for the mechanism to exist.

 

[D'rok]

I agree. I don't agree with what he said on that day, he was very upset and acted like a sorry loser, I think he was wrong in putting the blame solely on those two things (even though they played some part), and he pissed off alot of ethnic communities that did vote for the "yes".

But racist is too strong a word.

OK. I take it back. Still can't say a kind word about him though.