Census Answers to Race

[Senex]

Why the hostility?

I'm on the one knocking on doors making certain you rascals are represented.

Can you explain why genetics no longer matter in the US?

I hope you realize genetics and race are two different things. Genetics are the work of scientists. We will have gotten completely past the concept of race in the generation after me. My generation was overjoyed we elected a black guy -- future generations will look at the race of the winner as ho-hum. The US will soon be the all men are created equal place.

p.s. I voted for the guy in my avatar.

Me too. Ask the last two rascals.

 

[Uncayimmy]

Question to all: Suppose one day that the genetic clusters that make one's skin appear white or black are identified. So, we can say something like: within some small margin of error, if you have this pattern, your skin color will appear white.

I assume you mean shades of pink through brown, right? I thought they had already discovered the gene.

If that happens, what are your thoughts as to the correlation between self-reported race and the genetic pattern?

So, skin color determines race?

 

[bpesta22]

I assume you mean shades of pink through brown, right? I thought they had already discovered the gene.


So, skin color determines race?

I dunno. I suspect partly. Unless we can take a white baby and groom him environmentally to grow up with black skin, I think there has to be some bio component to race. I get the point-- most all believe nothing biologically important varies by race-- but I think it's disingenuous to claim that it's purely a social construct.

Also, suppose there are x number of biological systems affected by the genes that code for skin color. Would that be a reasonable definition of race (as a continuum versus dichotomy) and would it correlate strongly with self reports? That's just what I was wondering / why I asked.

 

[Senex]

I dunno. I suspect partly. Unless we can take a white baby and groom him environmentally to grow up with black skin, I think there has to be some bio component to race. I get the point-- most all believe nothing biologically important varies by race-- but I think it's disingenuous to claim that it's purely a social construct.

Also, suppose there are x number of biological systems affected by the genes that code for skin color. Would that be a reasonable definition of race (as a continuum versus dichotomy) and would it correlate strongly with self reports? That's just what I was wondering / why I asked.

You and Ucayimmy work out the details.

Skin color is not a reasonable definition of race (not by census standards).

 

[Uncayimmy]

I dunno. I suspect partly. Unless we can take a white baby and groom him environmentally to grow up with black skin, I think there has to be some bio component to race. I get the point-- most all believe nothing biologically important varies by race-- but I think it's disingenuous to claim that it's purely a social construct.

Also, suppose there are x number of biological systems affected by the genes that code for skin color. Would that be a reasonable definition of race (as a continuum versus dichotomy) and would it correlate strongly with self reports? That's just what I was wondering / why I asked.

The "races" were established long before we had any idea of genetics, and they seem to vary by the country doing the assigning. I haven't seen any evidence that we can work backwards from the current racial distinctions and arrive at meaningful genetic differences. We're mostly looking at superficial ones like skin color.

This chart is kind of interesting. There is some genetic clustering, but there's has been a buttload of mixing over the years.

And here's an interesting take on skin color:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/07/3/text_pop/l_073_04.html
Until the 1980s, researchers could only estimate how much ultraviolet radiation reaches Earth's surface. But in 1978, NASA launched the Total Ozone Mapping Spectrometer. Three years ago, Jablonski and Chaplin took the spectrometer's global ultraviolet measurements and compared them with published data on skin color in indigenous populations from more than 50 countries. To their delight, there was an unmistakable correlation: The weaker the ultraviolet light, the fairer the skin.

 

[Uncayimmy]

You and Ucayimmy work out the details.

Skin color is not a reasonable definition of race (not by census standards).

Can you give us some standards? I recall 20 years ago when my ex was applying for a teach job, I told her to call herself Hispanic. Her mother was a Cuban immigrant, so she was "half" Cubarican. I vaguely recall that being up at least 1/8 Cubarican would be sufficient, but I can't say definitively that was the case.

She felt "guilty" about it, but I reminded her that unlike my mother, a pure-blooded American, her mother was an immigrant who spoke little English when she arrived as an adult. Her family was at a disadvantage even though her father provided for them just fine. Furthermore, she spoke the language and was familiar with the culture, both advantages as far as the school system was concerned.

 

[slingblade]

You and Ucayimmy work out the details.

Skin color is not a reasonable definition of race (not by census standards).

What "census standards?"

 

[quixotecoyote]

What "census standards?"

Self-identification, I believe.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

You miss the point. Self reported race is how you look at yourself. Genetics doesn't matter. Genetics no longer matter in the US and to think the census cares about genetics is to demonstrate your idiocy. Self reported statistics help decide secondary issues like English as a Second Language teachers in a particular system.

And how would one's perceived ' race ' help meet those needs..

Besides, as pointed out in the other census threads, local school districts already have more timely demographic data to meet those needs, than the census does..

Nothing diabolical.

No, not diabolical, just idiotic..

 

[Senex]

Can you give us some standards? I recall 20 years ago when my ex was applying for a teach job, I told her to call herself Hispanic. Her mother was a Cuban immigrant, so she was "half" Cubarican. I vaguely recall that being up at least 1/8 Cubarican would be sufficient, but I can't say definitively that was the case.

She felt "guilty" about it, but I reminded her that unlike my mother, a pure-blooded American, her mother was an immigrant who spoke little English when she arrived as an adult. Her family was at a disadvantage even though her father provided for them just fine. Furthermore, she spoke the language and was familiar with the culture, both advantages as far as the school system was concerned.

A nice story. It has nothing to do with the census.

Self-identification, I believe.

God Bless the voice of reason.

And how would one's perceived ' race ' help meet those needs..

Besides, as pointed out in the other census threads, local school districts already have more timely demographic data to meet those needs, than the census does..


No, not diabolical, just idiotic..

Local school districts have nothing whatsoever to do with the census. The census is a mouth shut not sharing information with any other government agency.

You're the idiot.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

I'm the idiot ?
What kind of school districts are there besides ' local' ones ?

You are the one who said schools can use race information from the census in order to plan for language education..

Self reported statistics help decide secondary issues like English as a Second Language teachers in a particular system.

You seem intent on fulfilling the stereotype of a government employee..

" Just fill out the form, it doesn't matter whether it makes sense or not .. "


P.S.

The census is a mouth shut not sharing information with any other government agency.

I have news for you:

http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/statistics/census/index.cfm

A Consortium of Federal agencies consisting of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC), Department of Justice (DOJ), Department of Labor (DOL) and Office of Personnel Management (OPM) entered into a reimbursable agreement with the U.S. Census Bureau (the Bureau) to construct the Census 2000 Special EEO File. The basic File was released in December 2003 and contains data similar to that in comparable files from the 1970, 1980 and 1990 censuses. The Special EEO File will serve as the primary external benchmark for comparing the racial, ethnic and gender composition of an internal workforce, within a specified geography and job category, and the analogous external labor market.

Were you taking a nap during part of your indoctrination ?

 

[Senex]

I'm the idiot ?
What kind of school districts are there besides ' local' ones ?

You are the one who said schools can use race information from the census in order to plan for language education..

Yes. However I never said the census takes information from the school.

You seem intent on fulfilling the stereotype of a government employee..

" Just fill out the form, it doesn't matter whether it makes sense or not .. "

You are wrong. I'm doing god's work.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

How does God use ' race ' information ?

See last edit..

 

[Senex]

How does God use ' race ' information ?

See last edit..

god requires this information for federal programs and is critical for many programs, particularly those that involve civil rights. States use these data to meet legislative redistricting requirements. In addition data and race are used to monitor compliance with the Voting Act. Race data are also used to promote equal opportunity and find out if inequalities exist.

 

[Senex]

Were you taking a nap during part of your indoctrination ?

A fine government employee like myself never naps on duty.

You think I said all the information of the census will never be shared. The whole point of this billion plus thing is to be made public. My point was your personal information will not be shared.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

You think I said all the information of the census will never be shared.

No, I thought you said:

The census is a mouth shut not sharing information with any other government agency.

If you had actually used the word ' personal ', i would have understood that, even though I am an idiot ..


' Race ' is personal information ?


( pssss .. This thread/poll is about the ' race ' check boxes .. )

 

[slingblade]

Self-identification, I believe.

That's what I was told, and what I read. I'm pretty sure the census office has no "race standards."

The enumerators thought I was nuts for asking how they determine an occupant's race. The answer: "We don't. That's not our job or our business."

 

[slingblade]

And how would one's perceived ' race ' help meet those needs..

There is no answer one could give that would answer you. You seem to have decided the issue for yourself, and nothing presented will sway you.

I suppose that means you can stop asking now, but of course, you don't have to. I'm not sure why one would want to keep asking a question to which he has his answer, but whatever gets ya through the night...

 

[slingblade]

' Race ' is personal information ?
( pssss .. This thread/poll is about the ' race ' check boxes .. )

Every question on the census form is considered "personally identifiable information" as it is connected to the completed questionnaire.

The aggregate number totals taken from that data, however, are not connected to any names, races, specific addresses, phone numbers, etc., as found in the questionnaires and as such, do not constitute "personally identifiable information."

 

[Skeptical Greg]

There is no answer one could give that would answer you. You seem to have decided the issue for yourself, and nothing presented will sway you.

Quite assuredly, nothing so far ..

I suppose that means you can stop asking now, but of course, you don't have to. I'm not sure why one would want to keep asking a question to which he has his answer, but whatever gets ya through the night...

Without my rhetorical questions, where would you go with your rhetorical answers ?