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Merged David Chandler (ae911) sez "WTC7 was in free fall part of the time"

@BigAl Thanks man! I suppose the sources he refers to that allegedly claim that some big wig engineers are against pancake or whatever 'official' collapse theory is also bunk? Asking for real. Not being sarcastic.

The original "pancake theory" for the initiation of the collapse has been shown not to fit the evidence and was put aside by just about everyone a long time ago.

Is it 2006 again?
 
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The original "pancake theory" for the initiation of the collapse has been shown not to fit the evidence and was put aside by just about everyone a long time ago.

Is it 2006 again?

My bad, as I said, I have not been following this stuff and just met someone who is bombarding me with CTs that I figured I'd take a look at it.

As I said, 'pancake or whatever'. I don't know what the latest least debunked explanation is. The internet is so full of CTs on this that it is hard for someone just coming in that wants to get some answers about a certain video to do so without spending a week reading the history of CTs on this :)

I see, so pancake is out. Not sure what the currently widely accepted one is. I heard something about shock wave. Anyhow, whatever he is talking about is bunk I guess. I'll check the links you provided about how whatever he said was debunked :)

Thanks!
 
http://www.debunking911.com/fire3.htm
The MIT nut said the fire were black smoke and he has photo of grey smoke, it is was funny. Have your friend check out the photos here
http://www.debunking911.com/fire3.htm

The web site is a good place to start. The NIST report on the WTC is over 10,000 pages, send him/her to nist. http://wtc.nist.gov/

Great! Thanks! I do see black smoke in those images you linked. I'm not sure what's funny. I suppose you mean black smoke doesn't mean cool fire with little oxygen? I'm looking it up.
 
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@16.5 Please don't call me a liar. It is an irrelevant point anyhow.

I found the MIT video myself while looking into my friends' first video.

Point is, I have some videos I would like to hear intelligent responses from people that studied the subject and preferably have a professional background in related fields.

Oh, sorry! I guess I had you confused with the god damn fraud in the second video.
 
Great! Thanks! I do see black smoke in those images you linked. I'm not sure what's funny. I suppose you mean black smoke doesn't mean cool fire with little oxygen? I'm looking it up.

For a fire with lots of plastics, smoke color tells us nothing. See the citation, below. In any case, any fire is hot enough to remove most of the strength from structural steel.

Is it 2006 all over again?

...A fire in a building with modern fittings and materials generates smoke that is thick and black, obscures vision, causes great difficulty in breathing and can block the escape routes.

From:

Fire Safety Risk Assessment - Small and Medium Places of Assembly

Published 5 June 2006
Type(s) Manuals, leaflets and booklets, Good practice and guidance
Site Fire and resilience
ISBN 978 1 85112 820 4
Price .12.00 (free to download below)

Summary

This guide is for all employers, managers, occupiers, and owners of small (accommodating up to 60 people) and medium (accommodating up to 300 people) places of assembly including:

http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/fire/firesafetyrisk7
 
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1 - Post youtube link with "debunk this"
2 - "I'm just asking questions"
3 - "It's not me, I'm trying to debunk truthers elsewhere, looking for answers"
4 - Indignant "don't call me a liar" when the above are pointed out.

Again, resolver, congrats on your interest in finding the truth and setting people straight. But please understand that the posters in this subforum have seen #1-4 above about eleventy million times. It usually ends one certain way, with the original poster being a 9/11 "truth" guy trying to either get a rise out of people, or be sneaky about his 'truthiness' for some reason. Sorry if the above facts offend you, and no one yet has called you a liar.
 
About the 315 Tons of TNT of the fuel. This guy, Jeff, asserted that most of the fuel flew out or otherwise did not burn within the building. I'm not sure what evidence Jeff thinks he has about this, but is there evidence of the contrary?

Anyhow, a quick look over the wiki helped me come up to date with the summary of current analysis:

"NIST also emphasized the role of the fires, but it did not attribute the collapses to failing floor joists. Instead, NIST found that sagging floors pulled inward on the perimeter columns: "This led to the inward bowing of the perimeter columns and failure of the south face of WTC 1 and the east face of WTC 2, initiating the collapse of each of the towers."[6]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center

As for energy released due to gravity collapse: I see, so this not only made the floors fall off of their hinges as in the pancake theory, but also made those cores break apart. And it broke them up into 1-2 floor fragments, at least, maybe bigger (if this video is ignoring bigger pieces). I can imagine 200 2000 pound bombs of force could do something like that :)
 
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About the 200 2000 pound bombs and 315 Tons of TNT of the fuel. This guy, Jeff, asserted that most of the fuel flew out or otherwise did not burn within the building. I'm not sure what evidence Jeff thinks he has about this, but is there evidence of the contrary?

To the degree that this is true, so what? Fire raged inside the towers right up to the moment of collapse.

Is it 2006 all over again?

As for energy released due to gravity collapse: Seems like you are talking about the weight of the building falling onto the floor below, which sounds a bit like the pancake theory to me,
which has been abandoned. Please excuse me if I misinterpreted your statement.

Anyhow, a quick look over the wiki helped me come up to date with the summary of current analysis:

"NIST also emphasized the role of the fires, but it did not attribute the collapses to failing floor joists. Instead, NIST found that sagging floors pulled inward on the perimeter columns: "This led to the inward bowing of the perimeter columns and failure of the south face of WTC 1 and the east face of WTC 2, initiating the collapse of each of the towers."[6]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center

Which this video doesn't address or debunk, IIRC.

If "this video" is the King video it is useless as a source of anything fact-based.
 
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To the degree that this is true, so what? Fire raged inside the towers right up to the moment of collapse.

Well, to be 'fair' stuff inside the building at those floors probably doesn't burn as hot as the engine fuel, though, right? I'm not sure how this affects the specific analysis of the NIST report (would be great if someone who knows the content of that huge document well could chime in on this), but just saying.
 
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Well, to be 'fair' stuff inside the building at those floors probably doesn't burn as hot as the engine fuel, though, right?

Any fire burns hot enough to remove most of the strength from structural steel.
Henry Guthard, engineer and one of [WTC designer] Yamasaki's original partners who also worked as the project manager at the [WTC] site, said, "To hit the building, to disappear, to have pieces come out the
other side, it was amazing the building stood. To defend against 5,000 (sic) gallons of ignited fuel in a building of 1350 feet is just not possible.

(Report From Ground Zero page 188)
 
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Well, to be 'fair' stuff inside the building at those floors probably doesn't burn as hot as the engine fuel, though, right? I'm not sure how this affects the specific analysis of the NIST report, but just saying.
paper? jet fuel? Which burns hotter?

The fires from the office were as bad as the jet fuel, I don't have the exact numbers on my finger tips, but if you read NIST they cover office fires. Office fires reach temperatures that are very hot, and hot enough to reduce steel's strength.

The 315 tons of TNT in jet fuel refers to heat energy. The office contents were very high on heat released, maybe as much heat that was in the jet fuel. Heat energy. Chocolate chip cookies have more energy than TNT. Jet fuel has more energy than TNT. The heat of the office fires was large, and the MIT kid doctor does not want to discuss the massive fires, he has to lie and say they were cool. Cool fires. What a perverted dolt.

The gravity collapse was the energy of over 200 2000 pound bombs. Means the energy released during collapse due to gravity alone is the destruction we see at ground zero. E=mgh.
 
Well, to be 'fair' stuff inside the building at those floors probably doesn't burn as hot as the engine fuel, .

Fuel has little to do with the temperature a fire burns at.

This short video is a NY Fire Dept "test burn" of a to-be-demolished apartment building. Ordinary household contents resulted in a fire that burned at 1700DegF. That's hot. There is no reason to believe the WTC fires were any cooler. Steel loses half it's strength at 800DegF. It's gone at 1700.

 
Well, to be 'fair' stuff inside the building at those floors probably doesn't burn as hot as the engine fuel, though, right? I'm not sure how this affects the specific analysis of the NIST report (would be great if someone who knows the content of that huge document well could chime in on this), but just saying.

Wrong!
The ignited fuel set fire to the contents of the Tower at the impact level.
It is those materials that burned at such a temperature that the steel structure lost its integrity.
Why don't you use some of the time you're wasting here and go read the NIST Final Report at http://wtc.nist.gov/NCSTAR1/
 
I'd invite Bill to NYC with me this year, even pay for his trip out of my OWN pocket, just to see him TRY to go to 10 House and tell those guys that 9/11 was their fault. He wouldn't have the guts. I would post that on YouTube in SECONDS.

But, of course, he wouldn't take me up on that offer. He is a coward.

Bill is just a troll,an inept sit-down comedian,an attention seeker who will say anything just to get a reaction,don't get worked up about it,just use the ignore button.
 
I've just been reading NCSTAR 1-5E, which describes how NIST, in order to test and calibrate their Fire Dynamics Simulator code, built, in the lab, actual cube farms representative of those on the impact floors, packed them with actual instruments to measure rate of fuel consumption, rate of heat release and upper layer gas temperatures as a function of time, lit them on actual fire, recorded the measurements and compared those to predictions made by the FDS program for models of the experimental workstations.

Among the independent experimental variables was the presence or absence of jet fuel. If I'm reading the gas temperature graphs correctly, the presence or absence of jet fuel didn't produce any major differences in the upper layer temperatures. It did affect the peak heat release rate, the time between ignition and peak heat release and the duration of the workstation fires.

The impression I've gotten from reading NCSTAR 1-5 is that th role of the jet fuel was analogous to the role lighter fluid plays in lighting a charcoal grill- burning liquid scattered over a supply of solid fuel served to get all that fuel burning faster and more uniformly than if only one cubicle had been set on fire. It was the sustained burning of that solid fuel that produced the thermal damage that eventually caused the steel structure to fail.

resolver, if you aren't simply trolling, you may find it beneficial to actually read NCSTAR 1-5 and its sub-reports. They go into considerable detail about how the fire simulations worked, what assumptions were made in building the models for simulation and how these related to standard practices in fire safety engineering, the lengths NIST went to in torture-testing their computer tools to see how well they reflected reality and how the results were checked against the available data from the day itself.

This kind of rigor stands head, shoulders, trunk and knees above "common sense" claims propounded by CT shills in YouTube videos.
 
Your motives are crystal clear. You are not serious about applying logic and reason to the events of Sept. 11.

Go away.

My end-goal was not to upset anyone. I meant I want to get you riled up so that you respond to this thread as I wanted answers about it, truly. I think you are being mean :)
 
I've just been reading NCSTAR 1-5E, which describes how NIST, in order to test and calibrate their Fire Dynamics Simulator code, built, in the lab, actual cube farms representative of those on the impact floors, packed them with actual instruments to measure rate of fuel consumption, rate of heat release and upper layer gas temperatures as a function of time, lit them on actual fire, recorded the measurements and compared those to predictions made by the FDS program for models of the experimental workstations.

Among the independent experimental variables was the presence or absence of jet fuel. If I'm reading the gas temperature graphs correctly, the presence or absence of jet fuel didn't produce any major differences in the upper layer temperatures. It did affect the peak heat release rate, the time between ignition and peak heat release and the duration of the workstation fires.

The impression I've gotten from reading NCSTAR 1-5 is that th role of the jet fuel was analogous to the role lighter fluid plays in lighting a charcoal grill- burning liquid scattered over a supply of solid fuel served to get all that fuel burning faster and more uniformly than if only one cubicle had been set on fire. It was the sustained burning of that solid fuel that produced the thermal damage that eventually caused the steel structure to fail.

resolver, if you aren't simply trolling, you may find it beneficial to actually read NCSTAR 1-5 and its sub-reports. They go into considerable detail about how the fire simulations worked, what assumptions were made in building the models for simulation and how these related to standard practices in fire safety engineering, the lengths NIST went to in torture-testing their computer tools to see how well they reflected reality and how the results were checked against the available data from the day itself.

This kind of rigor stands head, shoulders, trunk and knees above "common sense" claims propounded by CT shills in YouTube videos.

Thanks, this is great.
 
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