• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

Status
Not open for further replies.
What a surprise. Once again you make a dubious, misleading or outright false claim and then try to skate away when you get called on it. Your constant, convenient "mistakes" about the facts and "mistakes" about other people's arguments have reached the point where I think engaging with you further is counterproductive.

ETA: We posted past each other. Your claims that the bath mat was "covered in someone else's blood", and that it had Raffaele's bare bloody footprint on it both further illustrate my point above about your misrepresentations of the facts. Maybe you can get away with this on PGF, but not here. Shoo, troll. We're done.

I referenced my source. The report is available, albeit in Italian. I can't believe really how someone can be such a 'know it all' when they've not even read the judgement from the trial. Instead, your language is a tiresome stream of self appointed absolutes.

What are you arguing....the mat 'wasn't' covered in someone else's blood? That the print on the mat has not been judged to be Raffaele's? Please explain the misrepresentation.
 
That's odd, my understanding is that Rudy was suspected of breaking in only because he had the laptop in his possession when he was arrested in the nursery. He claimed, when arrested, that he had bought the laptop off someone else, discovered it was stolen, and was attempting to return it to it's rightful owner(s).

Possession of stolen property would, of course, raise suspicions regarding Rudy's involvement in the crime - but he was never charged for either A) breaking into the law office or B) possession of stolen property.

So, again, I ask, Why don't you believe Rudy's story?
Hi BobtheDonkey,
I recall reading previously that Rudy Guede had already changed the desktop background photo to the one of himself with G. Armani. Please correct me if I am wrong.
If so, that does not sound like, to me at least, that Mr. Guede had any intention of returning the laptop to it's rightfull owners. Hence, I do not believe his story.

RWVBWL
 
Last edited:
Fulcanelli's malign presence now accounts for for 2,523 posts of a total of 14,478 on this thread, which is 17.5% or over 1 in 6.

Wow.
 
I referenced my source. The report is available, albeit in Italian. I can't believe really how someone can be such a 'know it all' when they've not even read the judgement from the trial. Instead, your language is a tiresome stream of self appointed absolutes.

What are you arguing....the mat 'wasn't' covered in someone else's blood? That the print on the mat has not been judged to be Raffaele's? Please explain the misrepresentation.

If I was in any way unclear, allow me to clarify. You consistently fail to accurately represent the facts, even when you are called out for it, you consistently fail to accurately represent the arguments of the people you respond to, and despite this you try to intimidate other posters with your demonstrably flawed "expertise". I have no interest in engaging further with your straw men, misstatements of fact and pretensions to authority.

If that was too wordy for you: You are a troll. Shoo, troll.
 
Cite? Or are you talking about something that was never argued by anyone in court, but then introduced as pure speculation by Massei since Raffaele carried folding knives so hey, let's say it might have been one of those that caused the smaller wounds even though we have no evidence whatsoever that was the case, and not even the prosecution suggested it might be?


Ehh...the reference is the Massei Report.

What was never argued in court? When were you in court in Perugia Katy?


By the way...I have some news for you people, because it seems to be an alien concept to you and you appear unable to understand it. Something does not need to be argued by the prosecution or any of the parties in trial for it to form part of the judge's conclusions.

This is not civil law, the adversarial system, where two parties argue a case and a jury picks which argument they favour most and give a verdict, with the winning case then forming the authoritative definition of of the case, even though neither of the two may have been completely true.

In the Italian system, The judges hear from all parties, including the victims. They are all weighed, but in the case of a guilty verdict, it is not the prosecutions's case that rules (or vice versa)...the judges go away and from all they heard they form their own case which will actually be different to the cases put forward by all the other parties. The judges don't simply choose which one they like best, as with juries in the common law, they are actually dynamic and are classed as 'the experts of experts', they are dynamic, not passive. They write their own case and it is 'that' that is definitive of the whole case. In common law, the goal is beyond reasonable doubt with the sole aim of returning a verdict and then their job is done. In civil law, returning a verdict under reasonable doubt is only the first step (and comes in the form of verdict and sentencing at the very end of the trial). The actual goal goes beyond reasonable doubt...which is 'truth'. This is because it is believed, rightly, that none of the cases put forward by any of the parties is wholly true, so it is the job of the judges to merge all that together from all the cases argued that they consider true and to add to it if needed, even if not argued by any party. The end product is 'truth', or at least, as close as possible to that aspiration...and that case for truth is released within 90 days after the issuing of the verdict. That is what we call the 'Motivations Report' (or judges' report).
 
If I was in any way unclear, allow me to clarify. You consistently fail to accurately represent the facts, even when you are called out for it, you consistently fail to accurately represent the arguments of the people you respond to, and despite this you try to intimidate other posters with your demonstrably flawed "expertise". I have no interest in engaging further with your straw men, misstatements of fact and pretensions to authority.

If that was too wordy for you: You are a troll. Shoo, troll.

Yet it is you constantly attacking the arguer rather then the argument here.
 
That's odd, my understanding is that Rudy was suspected of breaking in only because he had the laptop in his possession when he was arrested in the nursery. He claimed, when arrested, that he had bought the laptop off someone else, discovered it was stolen, and was attempting to return it to it's rightful owner(s).

Possession of stolen property would, of course, raise suspicions regarding Rudy's involvement in the crime - but he was never charged for either A) breaking into the law office or B) possession of stolen property.

So, again, I ask, Why don't you believe Rudy's story?

Yeah, Rudy claimed he bought the laptop and the cell phone stolen from a lawyer's office in Perugia from someone at Milan station just after he arrived in Milan from Perugia. What a coincidence!

Most of the info Kevin posted is confirmed in Micheli's report. Rudy was caught having broken into the Milan nursery (a couple of weeks after it had been broken into previously - where was Rudy then? Two break-ins in two weeks is pretty coincidental) with likely evidence in his backpack of four different thefts: he had a knife which he'd stolen from the nursery kitchen, a hammer for breaking windows (stolen from a bus/train?), a woman's gold watch (stolen from...wherever he stole it from. Unless we're to believe he bought it. I'm a little dubious), and a laptop and cell phone stolen from the Perugia lawyer's office. Four likely thefts, two break-ins.

Massei also relies on testimony from an acquaintance of Rudy's that he used to hassle women and try and steal their purses (it's given as a reason as to why he went after Meredith in the first place... I'm not a fan of Massei's reasoning here, but it seems he found that particular witness credible).
 
Last edited:
Do you have evidence to contest any of the claims made in mainstream media sources that I quoted and cited for you? Your word is no good at this stage.

In any case, even if he's not a drug dealer (and I'm happy to be agnostic on that point) the accusations of breaking and entering, carrying knives while doing so and using a rock to break a window to gain entry stand in mainstream sources.


Argument by anecdote has proven popular here. I'm going to offer one, simply as a cautionary tale on the subject of "facts" as disseminated by the "mainstream media".

Please be patient, this isn't simple to lay out.

At the very onset of the Casey Anthony case her car was impounded by the OCSD (Orange Cty, Sheriff's Dept.) along with a bag of items which her mother provided, saying she had removed them while cleaning the car.

Among these items was a "stainless steel knife", a standard silverware set table knife with a semi-serrated edge.

I have mentioned before that Florida has a "Sunshine Law" which is any reporter's dream. With very rare exceptions all public documents must be made available to anyone who asks for them. This includes everything released to a defense attorney as part of discovery.

About five months later Casey's daughter Caylee's remains were found a half mile from the Anthony home, and a couple of months after that a large (hundreds of pages) document dump was released by the OCSD, mostly concerned with the process surrounding that discovery.

This doc. dump included daily log notes of the OCSD officer responsible for intake and handling of evidence. The release consisted of scanned pages in a .pdf format, and there was not any particularly consistent chronology in their arrangement. When they were released the local TV station which had been making a major project of the case issued a very rushed opinion by their "legal analyst", publishing only hours after the doc. dump became available.

Due to an unfortunate arrangement of the pages scanned into the .pdf file there was a juxtaposition of notes about pulling the bag with the "stainless steel knife" from property storage for review by others, and a visit by that same officer to the scene of the newly discovered remains. The TV station "legal analyst" read through the documents in too great of a hurry, and somehow came to the conclusion that a second knife had been found with those remains.

He wrote an article to that effect the very same day.

It was picked up on by every major network, and repeated ad nauseum. Wise pundits Pompous windbags pontificated at great length on the significance of this "second knife" for days, even weeks. Months later such bottom feeders as the Nancy Grace creature, even when confronted with direct questions by callers about whether there was one knife or two were unwilling to make a formal retraction, but instead rambled off into incoherent evasions.

I never heard or read anyone on any major media outlet come right out and say "Nope, people, we were wrong. There was only ever one knife. We just jumped the gun and screwed up."

The original article which started the silliness is still on-line. There has been no direct correction by that source either.

There never was a second knife. No one with any connection to any LE authority ever said there was, or suggested it, or even hinted at it. However, if you choose only mainstream media sources, and accept them uncritically, without actually reading for yourself the documentation which their stories were based on then you can still easily come away with the unalloyed certainty that there was.

People new to the case continue to bring up that non-existent knife. They are more than willing to defend its existence quite passionately because they read about it in the mainstream media, and can become quite angry and offended when disagreed with, but when it is suggested that they read through the hundreds of pages of that one document dump to see the truth for themselves they can't be bothered.

It was still wrong, though.
 
The cite...is the Report.


So, when were you in court?

The reason you're refusing to cite it is because you know it doesn't say what you claim it says. You know that both Raffaele's folding knives were tested and came back negative, and you know that the section of the report you're referring to is pure, baseless speculation that since Raffaele carried folding knives, it was probably one of those that made the smaller wounds, and hey, maybe he got rid of it afterwards.

And I'm sure you know too that the prosecution never tried to argue Raffaele's knives made the smaller wounds, and thus the fact the judge speculates this might be the case only in the report - thus giving the defence no opportunity to challenge it - puts the defence in a strong position for the appeal. Perhaps you shouldn't be applauding Massei's speculations quite so vigorously.

But if any of that is incorrect, by all means provide a quote to contradict it. You were, after all, the one to make the original, unsupported claim.
 
Yeah, Rudy claimed he bought the laptop and the cell phone stolen from a lawyer's office in Perugia from someone at Milan station just after he arrived in Milan from Perugia. What a coincidence!

Most of the info Kevin posted is confirmed in Micheli's report. Rudy was caught having broken into the Milan nursery (a couple of weeks after it had been broken into previously - where was Rudy then? Two break-ins in two weeks is pretty coincidental) with likely evidence in his backpack of four different thefts: he had a knife which he'd stolen from the nursery kitchen, a hammer for breaking windows (stolen from a bus/train?), a woman's gold watch (stolen from...wherever he stole it from. Unless we're to believe he bought it. I'm a little dubious), and a laptop and cell phone stolen from the Perugia lawyer's office. Four likely thefts, two break-ins.

Massei also relies on testimony from an acquaintance of Rudy's that he used to hassle women and try and steal their purses (it's given as a reason as to why he went after Meredith in the first place... I'm not a fan of Massei's reasoning here, but it seems he found that particular witness credible).


I'm sorry, all you can say was that he had a hammer. You can't say he had a hammer 'for breaking windows' (besides which, if he had a hammer to break windows his MO for breaking windows couldn't be a rock, could it?)

The acquaintance of Rudy that claimed Rudy hassled women? This same acquaintance that was caught being paid 4,000 euros outside the court room by a team of journalists to testify against Rudy? That same acquaintance that was filmed by the journalists being paid to testify against Rudy and that video was then seized by Rudy's lawyer and played in court? That same acquaintance that Judge Micheli then ordered be taken from the court room and be put under criminal investigation along with the journalists who paid him and had his testimony thrown out? 'That' acquaintance Katy?
 
I'm sorry, all you can say was that he had a hammer. You can't say he had a hammer 'for breaking windows' (besides which, if he had a hammer to break windows his MO for breaking windows couldn't be a rock, could it?)

It was a hammer specifically for breaking windows - of the type you find in buses, as Micheli says. Not the type you'd use to do a bit of DIY. So yes, you can say it was a hammer 'for breaking windows'.

The acquaintance of Rudy that claimed Rudy hassled women? This same acquaintance that was caught being paid 4,000 euros outside the court room by a team of journalists to testify against Rudy? That same acquaintance that was filmed by the journalists being paid to testify against Rudy and that video was then seized by Rudy's lawyer and played in court? That same acquaintance that Judge Micheli then ordered be taken from the court room and be put under criminal investigation along with the journalists who paid him and had his testimony thrown out? 'That' acquaintance Katy?

Yes, Fulcanelli, this is the guy Massei relies on in the report. Guess he believed him anyway, huh?
 
The reason you're refusing to cite it is because you know it doesn't say what you claim it says. You know that both Raffaele's folding knives were tested and came back negative, and you know that the section of the report you're referring to is pure, baseless speculation that since Raffaele carried folding knives, it was probably one of those that made the smaller wounds, and hey, maybe he got rid of it afterwards.

And I'm sure you know too that the prosecution never tried to argue Raffaele's knives made the smaller wounds, and thus the fact the judge speculates this might be the case only in the report - thus giving the defence no opportunity to challenge it - puts the defence in a strong position for the appeal. Perhaps you shouldn't be applauding Massei's speculations quite so vigorously.

But if any of that is incorrect, by all means provide a quote to contradict it. You were, after all, the one to make the original, unsupported claim.

I'll tell you what Katy, since I've staked my reputation on it, when the report is published in English you'll be able to 'expose' me...won't you? And when it shows I'm right...I'll be the first in the queue to remind you about your spiteful little comment.


His knives came back negative...so? They'd been cleaned, just like the kitchen knife. Then there's the other knife...


Do you want to cite the section of the report you claim to be baseless speculation? Do you even know what section it is? Do you even understand it or have have a clue what he's talking about...how good is your Italian? And you also need to make your mind up...am I just making it up, or is Massei 'speculating'...which one is it?

And again, you tell us what the prosecution did not argue and again I ask (I think this is the fourth time) when were you in court Katy?

And also, clearly, you did not read my earlier post on the role of the judges in civil law.
 
katy_did said:
It was a hammer specifically for breaking windows - of the type you find in buses, as Micheli says. Not the type you'd use to do a bit of DIY. So yes, you can say it was a hammer 'for breaking windows'.

Cite.


katy did said:
Yes, Fulcanelli, this is the guy Massei relies on in the report. Guess he believed him anyway, huh?

Judge Massei wasn't involved in the pre-trial/Rudy's trial...it had to be all done fresh. He was unaware of those events. Secondly, Rudy's defence were not present during Raffaele's and Amanda's trial to object. Moreover, the defence didn't admit him as a witness for cross examination (I wonder why)...instead they handed over a written letter from him. Massei was only able to judge what was put in front of him at the time. But it doesn't change the fact that your witness has been well and truly discredited and shown to be a lying money grabbing perjurer. So, don't even 'try' to present him to us as remotely reliable.
 
Last edited:
I'll tell you what Katy, since I've staked my reputation on it, when the report is published in English you'll be able to 'expose' me...won't you? And when it shows I'm right...I'll be the first in the queue to remind you about your spiteful little comment.


His knives came back negative...so? They'd been cleaned, just like the kitchen knife. Then there's the other knife...


Do you want to cite the section of the report you claim to be baseless speculation? Do you even know what section it is? Do you even understand it or have have a clue what he's talking about...how good is your Italian? And you also need to make your mind up...am I just making it up, or is Massei 'speculating'...which one is it?

And again, you tell us what the prosecution did not argue and again I ask (I think this is the fourth time) when were you in court Katy?

And also, clearly, you did not read my earlier post on the role of the judges in civil law.

This is just silly. If you want to make a claim about something you say is in the report, then I think you should be prepared to cite it when asked. Otherwise, we're simply being asked to take your word for it.

If you're not prepared to cite, then wait till the report is published, so everyone can check the facts and context of your claims.
 
This is just silly. If you want to make a claim about something you say is in the report, then I think you should be prepared to cite it when asked. Otherwise, we're simply being asked to take your word for it.

If you're not prepared to cite, then wait till the report is published, so everyone can check the facts and context of your claims.


You are the one publicly accusing me of being a liar.

And of course I'm not going to cite...you're not getting the report until it's published. I've already stated here I will not post any more excerpts from the report. Perhaps you missed that post?
 
You are the one publicly accusing me of being a liar.

And of course I'm not going to cite...you're not getting the report until it's published. I've already stated here I will not post any more excerpts from the report. Perhaps you missed that post?

Then quit cryptically referring to things that are in it.

And by the way, I've never claimed Barrow was a reliable witness; it's Massei who appears to believe that. Here's a novelty, a cite:

Moreover, it does not seem that Rudy needed to be encouraged to make a pass at Meredith. Barrow Abukar, questioned 12.2007...has reported that Rudy, especially when drunk or under the influence of drugs, "was annoying to people, especially girls. He would physically block and try to kiss them". [p397]

Of course, it's entirely possible this is Massei again relying on baseless speculation, as with the knife.
 
katy did said:
Of course, it's entirely possible this is Massei again relying on baseless speculation, as with the knife.

No...as I've said, he has to work with what he has as best he can. In this case, he has a witness he was unable to examine and had only the written testimony from and Rudy's lawyers were not present to point out why that witness is false. You see...this Italian system 'can' work in your favour.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom