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Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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And yet, in the end, all three were convicted of the murder. I don't know why you constantly bring up the "lamer" term. I stand by the evidence that I posted. I am sure you stand by yours. None of it matters because they weren't convicted for their chequered pasts or their knife fetishes. They were convicted because of the evidence.

Yet Kevin retreads FOA talking points that cannot be supported by anything more than hearsay. Whereas we have the citation, we have the photos of the replica combat knives, we know about the stranger Amanda brought to the cottage, and so on.

I don't doubt that Rudy also had a troubled past. The rumours are too persistent to handwave away. But to present these as though they count while Amanda's and Raffaele's issues don't is dishonest.

One might even say that it's "lame".


If Amanda and Raffaele were not convicted for their checkered pasts or knife- and manga-collecting, then why were these aspects of their lives brought into the prosecutors' arguments? You do it again yourself when you imply we shouldn't act as if Amanda's and Raffaele's "issues" don't count. You and the prosecution think these extenuating circumstances should be measured and added to a formula that equates to guilt. You consider these aspects part of the evidence, but in the same breath say the defendants were not convicted on account of them.

Take away all the histories, all the myspace pages, all the family lore, even all of Rudy's prior crimnal behavior and just look strictly at the evidence from the crime scene. Forget about Amanda's supporters having to prove she is innocent; just look at the prosecutors' responsibility for proving she is guilty.

Without any of those considerations, can her guilt be proven beyond a reasonable doubt?
 
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Sorry, that's not a source I trust. Same as with Kevin's "sources". It's all referencing hearsay. Where is the Court testimony regarding Rudy's past?

In my opinion if you're trying so hard to convince yourself that Amanda is guilty that you are referring to major, mainstream news sources as "sources", "spewing twisted hearsay", you really need to take a couple of steps back and a few deep breaths. Especially since the issue you are trying to fight over isn't even directly relevant to Amanda's guilt and the sole reason to fight over it seems to be a compulsion to disagree with Amanda-supporters over every single point possible.
 
And yet, in the end, all three were convicted of the murder. I don't know why you constantly bring up the "lamer" term. I stand by the evidence that I posted. I am sure you stand by yours. None of it matters because they weren't convicted for their chequered pasts or their knife fetishes. They were convicted because of the evidence.

Yet Kevin retreads FOA talking points that cannot be supported by anything more than hearsay. Whereas we have the citation, we have the photos of the replica combat knives, we know about the stranger Amanda brought to the cottage, and so on.

I don't doubt that Rudy also had a troubled past. The rumours are too persistent to handwave away. But to present these as though they count while Amanda's and Raffaele's issues don't is dishonest.

One might even say that it's "lame".
In all fairness, Stilicho, I agree with HB, et al on the knife collection issue. Being an Eagle Scout...until a few months ago, it was rare for me to not have a high quality (Benchmade) pocketknife in my pocket at any given time any time over the past 15 or so years. I have 2-3 other pocket knives floating around in various bags/backpacks, as well as a Navy survival knife I have for when I dive (which hasn't been in a few years) and camp.

Additionally, my GF and her brother are both into collecting swords.

Yet none of us are murderers.

I daresay, a knife collection, in and of itself, regardless of what knives are featured in that collection, is hardly evidence of anything.
 
(Edit: when I say "Rudy's past" I am, of course, referencing his violent past, not merely breaking into/sleeping in a school - that's about as "violent" as a noise violation)


OMG, Bob. I am going to have to agree with Kevin that you have gone 'round the bend with some of your ideas.
 
In my opinion if you're trying so hard to convince yourself that Amanda is guilty that you are referring to major, mainstream news sources as "sources", "spewing twisted hearsay", you really need to take a couple of steps back and a few deep breaths. Especially since the issue you are trying to fight over isn't even directly relevant to Amanda's guilt and the sole reason to fight over it seems to be a compulsion to disagree with Amanda-supporters over every single point possible.

Kevin, it's not that simple. The reason I don't accept newspapers as reliable sources in this case is that many have been proven to exaggerate and mislead in regards to this case (this is why I suggested reading the entire thread - much of what Wikipedia offers in information is incorrect/misleading). The Mariott PR company has worked very hard to spread rumors near and far, and as the sources you cite have nothing more than hearsay (what was the original source they cited in regards to Rudy's past?) to work with, I discount them as sources.

Do you have Court testimony showing Rudy's violent past?
 
OMG, Bob. I am going to have to agree with Kevin that you have gone 'round the bend with some of your ideas.

Says the conspiracy theorist with no evidence and assertions that are contradicted by the facts...

Look, Mary, my idea on this is not around the bend. If you think breaking into a nursery to sleep is violent, then so be it. But that does not make breaking into an empty nursery to spend the night a violent crime.
 
If you're going to play word games and say "But he never got convicted, hence he never had a criminal record, hence this is not evidence of an M.O.!" I'm just going to dismiss you as irrational.

And you're saying that people are trying to demonise Amanda and Raffaele while you post news stories that conclude by saying that no charges were laid. We've been through all of this before. Waterbury thinks it's because Rudy was a police informant. We think it's because the news stories are not nearly as solid as you think they are.

Now there's more hearsay about Rudy having murdered a woman with a knife the week before with no charges being laid.

So? I don't see the relevance, except to try to demonise Knox on the basis that sexually active young women are likely to be murderers.

I'm showing you that demonisation works both ways. Rudy did this; Rudy did that. No charges were laid. But he did it. Ooooh-kaaay.

I'm familiar with them. The overwhelming majority of knife owners do not murder people. This too is a dumb attempt to demonise the accused in lieu of proper evidence.

What? You said Rudy carried a knife. I proved he's not the only one. Why is it when Rudy is found with a knife that's his m.o. but when Raffaele carries one it's demonisation?

Further, if you're arguing that Amanda and Raffaele staged the broken window, how did they know about Rudy's M.O. given that they didn't know Rudy at all as far as anyone can show? Isn't it a hell of a lot simpler to just figure that the most likely explanation is that the guy with a history of throwing rocks through windows and robbing houses threw a rock through a window and robbed a house?

I didn't make myself clear. They probably didn't know that Rudy had been alleged to have entered a premises through a broken window. Rudy does not have a history of throwing rocks through windows by the way.

The evidence at the trial proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the window in Filomena's room was not entered from the exterior of the cottage.

Oh for pity's sake, will you give this up? Amanda was involved in a single noise complaint which was and is completely unrelated to rape and murder. Rudy has an extensive history of armed housebreaking with a M.O. that fits the crime scene.

Just for that--no. I'm not going to give up on the noise complaint. It was fair game at her trial and it's fair game here. Amanda has an extensive history--corroborated by evidence, a citation, and her own words--of reckless behaviour not limited to that incident but including abandoning her sister on a train to Perugia so she could **** a complete stranger in the bathroom. She also called in sick several days and finally abandoned a job in Germany that her uncle had worked to get for her so she could drink and hang out in the parks instead.

That's only the tip of the iceberg and it's all right there in her own words. Nothing invented to "demonise" her. She's right there in the same league of irresponsible young adults along with Rudy and Raffaele and now all three of them are in prison.

I really think that this is another point where the Amanda-is-guilty crowd take leave of rational suspicion and have collectively charged off into ridiculous conspiracy-theory groupthink. Demonising Knox strikes me as irrational and unpleasant, but it's kind of understandable that the Amanda-is-guilty crowd go there once they have invested themselves in the belief that she's a callous rapist and murderer. However downplaying Rudy's established history of criminal behaviour in order to make Amanda look worse by comparison takes my breath away. You really do have to have your priorities seriously screwed up to do that.

Downplaying Rudy's behaviour? Absolutely not. He was right there in the cottage with them.

However, the only reason that Rudy's prior history is brought up is to make it appear--in the face of all contrary evidence--that he alone murdered Meredith. It's as though the trial should have only concerned itself with their backgrounds and not what they did together on the evening of 01 NOV 2007. You said it yourself above. You said that if someone had once thrown a rock through a window then that's evidence he did it to Filomena's window on 01 NOV 2007. Even though the evidence clearly showed that Rudy had nothing at all to do with it.

As I think I said earlier a sign of dysfunctional thinking is the need to make everything evidence that Amanda is guilty as hell and the worst person ever. An even-handed, rational appraisal might come to the conclusion that Amanda is guilty but that there is also a good case for her innocence. I wouldn't agree with that conclusion, but it wouldn't be blatantly irrational. But instead to Stilicho and Bob and Fulcanelli it seems that everything is evidence of her guilt that beats you over the head, and anything that Amanda's defenders say is automatically false and needs to be gainsaid, even if it's something irrelevant to her guilt like Rudy's background.

There is a case for her innocence. The first step (as I indicated many many pages ago) would be for her to recover her memory. That's the minimum she must do to indicate her innocence. You've read her testimony, I assume. If she can change each one of those "don't knows" and "can't remembers" to "this happened at such and such a time" then she would have a clear path to providing at least reasonable doubt.

Would Amanda be less of a murderer if she did do it, but Rudy had a criminal background? Not as I see it. His background would be totally irrelevant in that case. But it's not enough for the Amanda-is-guilty crowd that she be guilty. Nope, if the Amanda-is-innocent crowd say that Rudy has a criminal background then by God the Amanda-is-guilty crowd will argue that Rudy was a great guy and anyone who says different is "spewing twisted hearsay".

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean.
 
Grrrreeat argument. Well then, OJ must be innocent.

Edit: Yes, Amanda and Raffaele had issues. But they weren't issues like Rudy Guede had. The fact that you make anything of a stupid noise ticket and reference to a "troubled past" is lame. But hey, you can get a great job for the National Enquirer or something. You are very good making something out of nothing.

Do you agree with my answer to Kevin's challenge?:

Originally Posted by Kevin_Lowe
As I think I said earlier a sign of dysfunctional thinking is the need to make everything evidence that Amanda is guilty as hell and the worst person ever. An even-handed, rational appraisal might come to the conclusion that Amanda is guilty but that there is also a good case for her innocence. I wouldn't agree with that conclusion, but it wouldn't be blatantly irrational. But instead to Stilicho and Bob and Fulcanelli it seems that everything is evidence of her guilt that beats you over the head, and anything that Amanda's defenders say is automatically false and needs to be gainsaid, even if it's something irrelevant to her guilt like Rudy's background.

My Response:

There is a case for her innocence. The first step (as I indicated many many pages ago) would be for her to recover her memory. That's the minimum she must do to indicate her innocence. You've read her testimony, I assume. If she can change each one of those "don't knows" and "can't remembers" to "this happened at such and such a time" then she would have a clear path to providing at least reasonable doubt.
 
Kevin, it's not that simple. The reason I don't accept newspapers as reliable sources in this case is that many have been proven to exaggerate and mislead in regards to this case (this is why I suggested reading the entire thread - much of what Wikipedia offers in information is incorrect/misleading).

I'll take that claim with a grain of salt, since so far every time the Amanda-is-guilty posters have contradicted the wikipedia entry they've been wrong as far as I can make out.

I'm still waiting on Fulcanelli's citation to show that Amanda's DNA was on the bra clasp, for example.

The Mariott PR company has worked very hard to spread rumors near and far,

Do you have any evidence that these news reports are incorrect, false or anything of the sort? I'm certainly not saying we should take everything every newspaper says as Gospel truth but if multiple sources report credible witnesses accusing Rudy of breaking and entering using a rock while carrying a weapon you have to give that some weight.

and as the sources you cite have nothing more than hearsay (what was the original source they cited in regards to Rudy's past?) to work with, I discount them as sources.

Do you have Court testimony showing Rudy's violent past?

I never claimed he had a violent past, nor did any of the sources I cited. I don't know where you got that from.

He just had a past involving harassing women, theft, housebreaking using a rock to gain entry, and carrying knives while housebreaking, according to multiple witnesses whose statements were reported in the mainstream press.

It's remotely conceivable that they are all lies planted by an evil PR firm but I'd want to see some evidence before I took that as more than a conspiracy theory.
 
I daresay, a knife collection, in and of itself, regardless of what knives are featured in that collection, is hardly evidence of anything.

I suppose we do live in different worlds. I know people who carry them and I know why they carry them. I don't attribute a benign purpose to that type of knife unless you're out in the bush.
 
Says the conspiracy theorist with no evidence and assertions that are contradicted by the facts...

Look, Mary, my idea on this is not around the bend. If you think breaking into a nursery to sleep is violent, then so be it. But that does not make breaking into an empty nursery to spend the night a violent crime.


I have said several times it was not a conspiracy.

Well, I guess in some alternate universe you could get away with saying breaking, entering and burglarizing are not violent crimes, so I will let that one rest. As has been argued a number of times before in this thread, though, the kind of murder that killed Meredith is statistically most likely to be committed by someone who has a history of criminal behavior.
 
Well, no, of course not. They wouldn't have any reason to bring it up, because it would weaken their arguments about Amanda having a more extensive criminal record and a greater history of violence than Rudy.

Why don't the noble defenders of Amanda provide this evidence? They claim to have it so what is stopping them?
 
What? You said Rudy carried a knife. I proved he's not the only one. Why is it when Rudy is found with a knife that's his m.o. but when Raffaele carries one it's demonisation?


It's like you're trying to argue a case for reverse discrimination. You lump Amanda, Raffaele and Rudy into a homogenous group -- "She's right there in the same league of irresponsible young adults along with Rudy and Raffaele" -- as if everything in their lives has been equal up to this point. That is a one-dimensional view, not an analytical one.

As Bob has pointed out, carrying a knife has a different meaning depending on who is carrying the knife. Amanda's noise citation does not have the same meaning as Rudy stealing a computer from a law firm. It is not useful to compare the suspects from such a shallow point of view.
 
What do you think the key to her innocence is then?

I seriously doubt that Amanda regaining her memory in and by itself will be sufficient. If her memories of the events of that evening can be supported by someone (not one of the co-accused obviously) or something then there is a good chance her innocence can be proven.
 
I have said several times it was not a conspiracy.

Well, I guess in some alternate universe you could get away with saying breaking, entering and burglarizing are not violent crimes, so I will let that one rest. As has been argued a number of times before in this thread, though, the kind of murder that killed Meredith is statistically most likely to be committed by someone who has a history of criminal behavior.

Breaking and entering/Burglary requires 'intent to commit a felony.' Unless sleeping is a felony, what Rudy did is considered 'trespassing' - not a 'violent crime'. Just, ya know, FYI.

It would appear that Amanda has a "history of criminal behavior" - a noise violation... Of course, statistics can be misconstrued. You may present that 99.9% of all murderers have a history of prior convictions/criminal behavior. I would then argue that perhaps Amanda is in that .1% who didn't.
 
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It's like you're trying to argue a case for reverse discrimination. You lump Amanda, Raffaele and Rudy into a homogenous group -- "She's right there in the same league of irresponsible young adults along with Rudy and Raffaele" -- as if everything in their lives has been equal up to this point. That is a one-dimensional view, not an analytical one.

As Bob has pointed out, carrying a knife has a different meaning depending on who is carrying the knife. Amanda's noise citation does not have the same meaning as Rudy stealing a computer from a law firm. It is not useful to compare the suspects from such a shallow point of view.
Rudy was not prosecuted for stealing a computer. He claims he bought it from someone else, why do you not believe him?
 
Breaking and entering/Burglary requires 'intent to commit a felony.' Unless sleeping is a felony, what Rudy did is considered 'trespassing' - not a 'violent crime'. Just, ya know, FYI.

It would appear that Amanda has a "history of criminal behavior" - a noise violation... Of course, statistics can be misconstrued. You may present that 99.9% of all murderers have a history of prior convictions/criminal behavior. I would then argue that perhaps Amanda is in that .1% who didn't.


It is not criminal behavior to live in a house where a party is going on. Other than Amanda being the one who took the responsibility for responding to the police officer who issued the citation, there is no evidence she made any noise or threw any rocks. In fact, she was probably upstairs studying -- remember, Fulcanelli said she was a loner? ;)
 
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