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Call to ban the burqa in Australia

lionking said:
When muslim women wear burqas out of personal freedom you may just have a point.
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Has anybody asked them? I mean, does anybody care what the particular women involved want to wear, or is it just okay to assume that they need to be told? That seems kind of paternalistic, whether it's coming from their evil Muslim husbands or their enlightened caring government. Would it really destroy the security of a whole nation to let one group of citizens dress as they please--like all the other groups do?
 
TragicMonkey said:
Would it really destroy the security of a whole nation to let one group of citizens dress as they please--like all the other groups do?
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Again this is your assumption. I'm not saying you are necessarily wrong, but I have seen a number of docos and articles which contend that burqas and naqibs are imposed on women.

But even if this is true, there are legitimate security issues here, which was the point of the OP.
 
lionking said:
Again this is your assumption. I'm not saying you are necessarily wrong, but I have seen a number of docos and articles which contend that burqas and naqibs are imposed on women.
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Oh, okay. The women are lucky to have other people concerned about their welfare who can command them how to dress and punish them if they dress incorrectly. They will be very grateful to be saved from the oppression of the people who command them how to dress and punish them if they dress incorrectly.

And a legal ban on this particular type of dress will definitely prevent robberies much better than the laws against robbery do because while a person might be criminal enough to rob a store, nobody would violate a dress code. Safety and freedom! Everybody wins!
 
Missing the point altogether. Are you seriously contending that muslim women in general choose to wear the burqa?
 
I do not think you need to ban it. Get the people who promote the burqas to stop.

I also wonder how many of these women were born in Australia? I suggest (without evidence) not many. If they are exposed to people who do not wear the burqas as children they may say no.
 
lionking said:
I'd love to see how that estimate has been arrived at. I often drive through Preston and Dandenong, two Melbourne suburbs, and would see a dozen women wearing the burqa or naqib. Hell, one of my company's staff wears a naqib! And south-west Sydney, Lakemba in particular, has a lot more muslims than anywhere else (and I visit that area a lot as well).

Any evidence for this 200 estimate?
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I am not sure where the number came from i will try to find the source again. like you i was skeptical but most Muslims i see only wear the Hijab
 
Orphia Nay said:
Even if it IS only 200, no women should be subjugated. It's also irrelevant if the politician is courting the media - the issue is important.
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What about my comment says that the issue is unimportant do not attack people because you see innuendo in a statement where there is none. i was merely saying that the politician in question did not come at his decision through reasoned thought but through ignorance and malice
 
I really think most Westerners have zero problems with a hijab. The issue is the all encompassing burqa...and the face cover.
 
lionking said:
Missing the point altogether. Are you seriously contending that muslim women in general choose to wear the burqa?
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I'm seriously contending that it is not freedom to offer people a choice, then legislate against them if they choose the "wrong" way. Freedom of choice means freedom to choose an unpopular option. Taking away a choice because you think nobody could or should choose that option is the opposite of freedom. The only opinions that matter when it comes to wearing burqas are the opinions of the people wearing them.

Presumably since Australia is considering a ban on them, they're currently legal. And presumably again there are no laws in Australia requiring Australian residents to wear them. Anybody wearing one is doing so by choice. Why should they have to justify their reasons for that choice to you? Why do you get to sit in judgment and decide what reasons are permissable, and which ones aren't? You want to do it for their own good, I realize...but that's precisely the motive of the people who want to take away the choice from the other side and compel women to wear them.

What else is freedom except being able to choose for yourself?
 
TragicMonkey said:
In the name of personal freedom, we command you not to dress in that particular manner! This is better than the oppressive culture that commands you to dress in that particular manner!
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Nice strawman.

In the name of collective security we forbid people to dress in a way that hides their identity.
 
TragicMonkey said:
I'm seriously contending that it is not freedom to offer people a choice, then legislate against them if they choose the "wrong" way. Freedom of choice means freedom to choose an unpopular option. Taking away a choice because you think nobody could or should choose that option is the opposite of freedom. The only opinions that matter when it comes to wearing burqas are the opinions of the people wearing them.

Presumably since Australia is considering a ban on them, they're currently legal. And presumably again there are no laws in Australia requiring Australian residents to wear them. Anybody wearing one is doing so by choice. Why should they have to justify their reasons for that choice to you? Why do you get to sit in judgment and decide what reasons are permissable, and which ones aren't? You want to do it for their own good, I realize...but that's precisely the motive of the people who want to take away the choice from the other side and compel women to wear them.

What else is freedom except being able to choose for yourself?
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Do these women really choose for themselves to wear the burqa? :confused:
 
TragicMonkey said:
I'm seriously contending that it is not freedom to offer people a choice, then legislate against them if they choose the "wrong" way. Freedom of choice means freedom to choose an unpopular option. Taking away a choice because you think nobody could or should choose that option is the opposite of freedom. The only opinions that matter when it comes to wearing burqas are the opinions of the people wearing them.

Presumably since Australia is considering a ban on them, they're currently legal. And presumably again there are no laws in Australia requiring Australian residents to wear them. Anybody wearing one is doing so by choice. Why should they have to justify their reasons for that choice to you? Why do you get to sit in judgment and decide what reasons are permissable, and which ones aren't? You want to do it for their own good, I realize...but that's precisely the motive of the people who want to take away the choice from the other side and compel women to wear them.

What else is freedom except being able to choose for yourself?
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Nice mindreading.
 
Presumably since Australia is considering a ban on them...

A ban is not seriously being considered we just have an outspoken minority.
 
Also refering to my previous statement i looked for the source and found it i misquoted it states an approximation of 2000 then i checked where the comment came from and found that i am seriously embarrased to have quoted such a imbecilic person so i am not going to post it :o
 
Orphia Nay said:
Even if it IS only 200, no women should be subjugated. It's also irrelevant if the politician is courting the media - the issue is important.
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DrKarlKid said:
What about my comment says that the issue is unimportant do not attack people because you see innuendo in a statement where there is none. i was merely saying that the politician in question did not come at his decision through reasoned thought but through ignorance and malice
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Where did I say you think the issue is unimportant? I was just making a statement.

Where did I attack you? I just commented on your post.

DrKarlKid said:
Also refering to my previous statement i looked for the source and found it i misquoted it states an approximation of 2000 then i checked where the comment came from and found that i am seriously embarrased to have quoted such a imbecilic person so i am not going to post it :o
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No probs.
 
Orphia Nay said:
Where did I say you think the issue is unimportant? I was just making a statement.

Where did I attack you? I just commented on your post.



No probs.
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Mia Colpa i seem to have really stuffed my input to this thread i read more into your statment then you obviously meant. again:o
 
Core issue here is that of security. Just as one is prevented from wearing a ski mask, a motorcycle helmet, etc. whilst walking around in public places, the same should be implemented against the burqa. The 'right' to wear such cultural dress (as they aren't religious) wouldn't be an issue if done in the privacy of one's home. Neither is walking around in a bike helmet at home.

Don't quite understand the argument of whether or not women choose to or not to wear the burqa has to do with the core issue of why this ban is being implemented. Whatever the personal motivations are of the politicians pushing this ban is moot...

What's laughable is the women's emancipation angle and how this ban is a hinderance to women's rights.
 
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