Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[Bruce Fischer]

Personally, I cannot believe that anyone is seriously arguing that the Perugia police should not have asked all of the tenants of the cottage (and all known visitors for that matter) to voluntarily provide DNA samples. They all should have been asked, and (assuming that they voluntarily complied with the request), those samples could have been compared to the various unidentified DNA found.

In my view, the Perugia police did a poor job in several ways, and it is very sloppy police work not to have tried harder to identify the unidentified sources of DNA, and had they done so, that could very easily have either strengthened or (more likely) weakened their case against Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito. So, fair-minded people are left to wonder why the police didn't bother to utilize an investigative tool that was readily available to them, particularly since it turns out that there were multiple different DNA samples on the bra clasp, several of which remained unidentified.

And, stilicho: in Canada, police can and do ask for DNA samples on a voluntary basis in connection with crime scenes on a regular basis, both as a control for purposes of eliminating those that are expected to be found at a particular location, and also as a means to try to locate and identify a suspect. Such voluntary requests have a high compliance rate and relatively few people lawyer up or refuse to provide such samples. Now, generally, this is done on a relatively small scale (e.g. when the crime scene is known and limited), but in some cases, police have gone door to door throughout large sections of a town or city (for instance, on a particular route that a victim is believed to have walked before being abducted), asking for voluntary samples when the circumstances have warranted it, and voluntary compliance rates have been very high. Does the Holly Jones case ring a bell for you?

Thank you!

 

[Mr.D]

there were multiple different DNA samples on the bra clasp, several of which remained unidentified.

I believe that one of the few uncontentious "facts" about the bra clasp is that the unidentified DNA "found" on it could not be used to definitively identify to whom they belong due to being only partial profiles.

(I'm not disagreeing with your main point, though)

ETA: IIRC the unidentified partial DNA profiles on the bra are claimed to be female. Does anyone know the gender composition of the forensic collection team?

 

[tsig]

Aha! Another straw man! No, the argument was something completely different, which not surprisingly you wish to divert attention from. Let's recap:







Nobody, neither LondonJohn nor Wiki, said there were only three miscarriages of justice in Italy since 1969. You cannot have failed to realise that, so the only conclusion I can draw is that you were arguing dishonestly.






Do you really think that a complete list of miscarriages of justice could ever be compiled? No, obviously not - you're not a moron. So the only possible conclusion I can draw is that once again you are arguing dishonestly.

Now all of a sudden my whole argument is that "everybody is conspiring against Amanda. Even Amanda". Rather sensibly tsig didn't try to actually quote anything I'd said to back up that accusation, which makes it look as thought you're actually arguing with someone you've made up in your head, rather than me. It doesn't make you look good when you have to make up people to argue against.

why did the court find her guilty then other than conspiracy?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

audit misdirection

I've had about enough of this *********:

Baltimore:

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2010-03-14/news/bal-md.lab14mar14_1_dna-testing-crime-lab-chiafari

"More than a year after an internal audit highlighted widespread deficiencies within the Baltimore Police Department's crime lab, the division has a backlog of thousands of analysis requests."

Boston:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/02/01/us_audit_found_more_problems_at_crime_lab/

"Auditors from the US Justice Department's Office of the Inspector General concluded that the laboratory entered incomplete genetic profiles into its computerized database in 12 cases of a sample of 100 involving unidentified suspects who left DNA at crimes scenes, making the profiles inadequate."

Cleveland:

http://www.dispatch.com/live/conten...27/FREEBIOS.ART_ART_01-27-08_A12_R99539R.html

"The audit, which continues, found the analyst's testimony in Green's trial misleading and inaccurate, including his conclusions about the attacker's blood type."

San Francisco:

http://www.ktvu.com/news/22991929/detail.html

"The audit of the lab's drug-testing unit, released Tuesday, concluded in part that the unit is overburdened with too many cases to safely and accurately complete them in time for criminal charging."

--------------

I could go on but I want to make it abundantly clear that halides1 is not being entirely honest with his listing of American crime labs with problems. The point at which the contamination or fraud is uncovered is not in the courtroom but during the audit. This has been an ongoing challenge to halides1 and his team of DNA buffs.

Show us the audit report (or its media representation) where the Rome crime lab was similarly exposed. I can produce evidence of audits at each and every example you've provided, even though that's not my job. You are making the claim that the Rome crime lab is like those mentioned above.

Now prove it.

Stilicho,

In at least two of the cases you cited, the audit was done in response to evidence of wrongdoing:

The audit was undertaken in response to allegations that Deborah Madden, a former lab employee, stole small quantities of cocaine from evidence at the lab. Madden has not been charged, but went on leave in December and retired March 1.
http://www.ktvu.com/news/22991929/detail.html

Green was granted DNA testing on the condition that his stepfather pay the $6,000 cost. A newspaper series about his ordeal prompted the real rapist, guilt-ridden Rodney Rhines, to confess. Green settled with the city for $1.6 million, plus an outside audit of the analyst's 17 years of work at the Cleveland crime lab.
http://www.dispatch.com/live/conten...27/FREEBIOS.ART_ART_01-27-08_A12_R99539R.html (emphasis added)

Moreover, you have continued to ignore that audits played no role in uncovering the problems in the Leskie or Jama cases I have previously cited, nor the cases I recently cited from New Zealand. Your assertions are contrary to fact.

halides1

 

[Chris_Halkides]

not Filomena

I don't. But, there is no reason to suspect either of the other roommates, nor the boys from downstairs, were involved by way of their alibis - they weren't just busy, they were out of town that night.

Filomena said that she was with her boyfriend that night, not out of town, not even very far away by car.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

timing is everything

All of those pieces of evidence were assessed by the forensics teams. Those are the same people who you argue are unable to assess DNA or prints when it comes to Amanda or Raffaele. Or that it might have been the result of contamination.

Do you see the inconsistency in your position yet?

The lab developed evidence that pointed to RG as a suspect. There was no axe to grind. On the other hand, AK and RS were already paraded through the old part of the city and in custody by the time forensic evidence was announced. In the case of the bra clasp, this time gap was especially large. Therefore, various kinds of cognitive bias can come into play with AK and RS that are simply not applicable for RG. Check out the article I cited "CSI for Real" for some good discussion on these biases if you like.

halides1

 

[stilicho]

They all should have been asked, and (assuming that they voluntarily complied with the request), those samples could have been compared to the various unidentified DNA found.

...

Such voluntary requests have a high compliance rate and relatively few people lawyer up or refuse to provide such samples. Now, generally, this is done on a relatively small scale (e.g. when the crime scene is known and limited), but in some cases, police have gone door to door throughout large sections of a town or city (for instance, on a particular route that a victim is believed to have walked before being abducted), asking for voluntary samples when the circumstances have warranted it, and voluntary compliance rates have been very high. Does the Holly Jones case ring a bell for you?

I'll accept that and also that there's a high compliance rate. But when the body is in a locked room in the cottage you've rented, you'd be out of your mind to decline your stated right to an attorney.

That's one facet of this case that's frequently overlooked in comparisons to other murder cases. It wasn't just a body found anywhere. It was locked inside a room with no other exit than the common area.

Just as a matter of opinion, and knowing you would be considered a suspect, would you have declined your right to representation?

 

[stilicho]

Stilicho,

In at least two of the cases you cited, the audit was done in response to evidence of wrongdoing:

Yes, there were audit reports.

I would ask you to show whether or not the Rome lab were every audited, but you would probably get that wrong as well.

The onus is on you. I'm satisfied with the results of the testing, the presentation and cross-examination of the evidence, and the verdict.

 

[stilicho]

There's no inconsistency in thinking that the Rome lab might get things right almost all of the time and wrong occasionally. Nor in thinking that the Rome lab might do things perfectly honestly almost all of the time but have falsified a result once.

You once again seem to want to engage with a straw man, that straw man being the position that the Rome lab should be believed to be absolutely unreliable or that they make all of their results up. Nobody that I am aware of holds this position.

So, in your opinion, they might equally have falsified or botched the results in Rudy's tests.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I don't. But, there is no reason to suspect either of the other roommates, nor the boys from downstairs, were involved by way of their alibis - they weren't just busy, they were out of town that night.

So I'm guessing your argument is that the Police could, possibly, have eliminated the DNA evidence from these people, and if anything was left it could belong to a fourth killer.

Yes, that is my point.

My understanding is that the remaining, unaccounted for stains/fingerprints were only partial profiles/prints - so having more references wouldn't help.

They did get fingerprints from the other housemates and Meredith's boyfriend. But they didn't get DNA samples. Here are the unaccounted for samples from the cottage and surrounding area:

Rep. 11, tissue paper found on the line of pavement (vicinity of the lawn) in front of the entry of the lower apartment, revealed the DNA of an unknown male.

Rep. 17, tissue paper marked with the letter “C” found on the right side of the wall of the path that leads to the house of the Via della Pergola Nb. 7 (report of exhibits and attachments 11/05/2007), revealed the DNA (blood) of an unknown female.

Rep. 18, tissue paper marked with the letter "D" found in Via Della Pergola, revealed the DNA (blood) of a second unknown male.

Rep. 19, tissue paper marked with the sign “DX” found in Via S. Antonio (report descriptive survey carried out by the Gabinetto Provinciale (Provincial Laboratory) of the Forensic Police of Perugia), revealed the DNA (blood) of a second unknown female.

Rep. 20, tissue paper marked with the sign “SX” found in Via S. Antonio (Report of descriptive survey carried out by Gabbinetto Provinciale (Provincial Laboratory) of the Forensic Police of Perugia), revealed the DNA of the same female as Rep. 19.

Rep. 142, 143, and 144, cigarette butts from the ashtray in the kitchen, revealed the DNA of a third unknown male.

Did the Defense Attorneys ask for DNA profiles from the rest of the building's tenants?

I don't know.

 

[Matthew Best]

I'll accept that and also that there's a high compliance rate.

Progress, since this is exactly the point you refused to accept a few posts ago, saying that anyone who voluntarily gave a sample of DNA would be not in their right mind. Congratulations!

But when the body is in a locked room in the cottage you've rented, you'd be out of your mind to decline your stated right to an attorney.

Ah, I see you're attempting to shift the goal posts to suggest that the point made was that nobody should use a lawyer. Well, nobody has suggested that apart from you.

I see nothing much has improved over the course of the last couple of hours.

 

[Matthew Best]

Yes, there were audit reports.

And what did the audit reports into the Rome lab say? Nobody else has been able to even state that there has ever been one, so it's good to hear from you that the lab has actually been audited.

 

[tsig]

There's no inconsistency in thinking that the Rome lab might get things right almost all of the time and wrong occasionally. Nor in thinking that the Rome lab might do things perfectly honestly almost all of the time but have falsified a result once.

You once again seem to want to engage with a straw man, that straw man being the position that the Rome lab should be believed to be absolutely unreliable or that they make all of their results up. Nobody that I am aware of holds this position.

Reading the thread would help your argument.

 

[Matthew Best]

Says the person who thinks that the argument put forward is that "everyone is conspiring against Amanda, including Amanda"!

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

I was not aware that Laura, Filomena nor any of the boys downstairs did not give any DNA samples, is this a known fact for sure?

Also, the foot print on the blue mat, why couldn't the print have been made by someone stepping into blood that was already on the mat as opposed to having blood on their bare foot already?

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

So, in your opinion, they might equally have falsified or botched the results in Rudy's tests.

I would say that if all else was equal that would be equally possible, sure. I don't think all else was equal in this case but I've got no objection in principle to the idea that one, or even more than one, of the tests that implicated Rudy were falsified or botched... were you going somewhere with this?

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Yes, that is my point.



They did get fingerprints from the other housemates and Meredith's boyfriend. But they didn't get DNA samples. Here are the unaccounted for samples from the cottage and surrounding area:

Rep. 11, tissue paper found on the line of pavement (vicinity of the lawn) in front of the entry of the lower apartment, revealed the DNA of an unknown male.

Rep. 17, tissue paper marked with the letter “C” found on the right side of the wall of the path that leads to the house of the Via della Pergola Nb. 7 (report of exhibits and attachments 11/05/2007), revealed the DNA (blood) of an unknown female.

Rep. 18, tissue paper marked with the letter "D" found in Via Della Pergola, revealed the DNA (blood) of a second unknown male.

Rep. 19, tissue paper marked with the sign “DX” found in Via S. Antonio (report descriptive survey carried out by the Gabinetto Provinciale (Provincial Laboratory) of the Forensic Police of Perugia), revealed the DNA (blood) of a second unknown female.

Rep. 20, tissue paper marked with the sign “SX” found in Via S. Antonio (Report of descriptive survey carried out by Gabbinetto Provinciale (Provincial Laboratory) of the Forensic Police of Perugia), revealed the DNA of the same female as Rep. 19.

Rep. 142, 143, and 144, cigarette butts from the ashtray in the kitchen, revealed the DNA of a third unknown male.

So, no unknown full profiles from inside the girls' part of the cottage? Was it Meredith's blood on the tissues (at least one wasn't)?

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

So, in your opinion, they might equally have falsified or botched the results in Rudy's tests.

Sure. Because of the way they handled evidence at the crime scene, any given test result could be unreliable. But they got four DNA samples matching Guede inside the murder room - two on the victim's clothing, one on her purse, and one inside her vagina. That's a clear pattern. Add in Guede's fingerprints, made with the victim's blood, in the room where she was killed, and his shoe prints in her room and the corridor, and it proves his guilt beyond any reasonable doubt.

With Amanda and Raffaele, we've got one sample - the bra fastener - inside the murder room. All the other DNA evidence is in places where it proves nothing. So the bra fastener is a fluke, because if they had been in that room participating in the murder with Rudy, they'd have left a pattern of evidence just as he did.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Sure. Because of the way they handled evidence at the crime scene, any given test result could be unreliable. But they got four DNA samples matching Guede inside the murder room - two on the victim's clothing, one on her purse, and one inside her vagina. That's a clear pattern. Add in Guede's fingerprints, made with the victim's blood, in the room where she was killed, and his shoe prints in her room and the corridor, and it proves his guilt beyond any reasonable doubt.

With Amanda and Raffaele, we've got one sample - the bra fastener - inside the murder room. All the other DNA evidence is in places where it proves nothing. So the bra fastener is a fluke, because if they had been in that room participating in the murder with Rudy, they'd have left a pattern of evidence just as he did.

So how did Raffaele's DNA come to be in Meredith's room? I know, I know...I've asked, Halides has attempted to provide answers. Of course, all those answers rely on one thing: That Raffaele left his DNA elsewhere in the cottage, in a spot that was not tested, nor was brushed up against except in the solitary moment that it was carried to the clasp (or at least, it was not transferred to any of the other areas/items tested - but we'll leave that leap in logic for another post).

In short: the evidence...absence...absence...evidence bit works both ways.

There is no way, at this point, to definitively prove that Raffaele was not in Meredith room - by way of the very same reasoning. Just because his DNA was not found elsewhere in the room/on the body, does not mean it wasn't present and just not in a spot that was tested.

And now, the contamination believers are hoisted by their own petard. ETA: By this, I mean that by their own "absence of evidence" argument, there is no reason to believe that absence of Raffaele's DNA in the room does not require contamination. The doubt in the results is no longer quite so much.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

So, no unknown full profiles from inside the girls' part of the cottage? Was it Meredith's blood on the tissues (at least one wasn't)?

They didn't take any samples from Laura's room. They took five samples from Filomena's room (two from the rock, two from the windowsill, and one from the floor where the luminol lit up). The only samples they took from the large bathroom were the feces and paper in the toilet. The cigarette butts were the only items tested in the kitchen. The rest of the tests were in Meredith's room, the small bathroom, Amanda's room, and the adjoining corridor.

Meredith's DNA was not found on any of the tissues, but it wasn't cat blood. The cat blood was found on the steps leading to the downstairs apartment and inside that apartment.