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Noah's Ark found?

Radrook said:
Don't you think it's only natural that if we keep mocking the supernatural in the presence of those who believe in it, that the discussion will veer to the feasibility of the supernatural? Can we really blame those who respond to defend the supernatural aspect of the account if we keep throwing mockery in their faces? Or should we blame the scoffers for the deviation from the subject? In short, is it just to demand silence of some while permitting topic deviation via mockery from others?. True, let's stay on subject but let's apply the stay on subject rule equitably.
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I agree with the above. I agree that comments along the lines of "All religion is stupid, therefore the belief in the ark is stupid." are not really on topic.

The reason I commented on Iamme's contributions, but not on the others, was that his particular one seemed to draw a bit more response and threatened to derail the thread away from a topic I was interested in. My particular area of interest is belief in Biblical literalism, especially the belief in the deluge as a real, historical, event. I see Young Earth Creationism as so closely intertwined with that belief that it is almost unavoidable to separate the two. Discussion of the general plausibility of the theory of evolution pushes that limit, but, again, is so closely intertwined with literalist belief that it can't be completely separated. However, I think Iamme was going a bit farther abroad in his discussion and, moreover, those who responded to him were also deviating from the main topic of the thread, which is Noah's Flood and the most recent in a series of many ark discoveries, or even the peripheral topics of Young Earth Creationism and the plausibility of evolution.
 
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Journey of Mankind

I wanted to share this link, it is a nice graphical representation of mankind's geographic journey as evidence by mitochondrial DNA and archaeology. To me the remarkable thing is how both biology and archaeology match this story, so settlements and art are found precisely where the genetic drift tells us they will be found.

http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/
 
On a related note, do any of our resident flood believers believe that we have any pre-flood historical records? In other words, can I look at any document or building and say that it was written or built prior to the flood?
 
The universe is exactly 13,214,111,643 and 2 days old. Shame on all of you, not even a card.
 
Meadmaker said:
On a related note, do any of our resident flood believers believe that we have any pre-flood historical records? In other words, can I look at any document or building and say that it was written or built prior to the flood?
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I searched on google and vfound this:

Antediluvian Artifacts

Bell in Coal by Genesis Park
Cretaceous Hammer by Genesis Park
Forbidden Archaeology by Megaraptor.com
Forbidden Archaeology (book review) by Genesis Park
Odd Things in Wrong Places from Time Upside Down by Erich von Fange
Oddities in the Rocks : From The Nikos File by Michaela Magi Griffiths
Pot Found in Coal by Creation Truth Ministries
Remains in Coal and Rock by Pathlights
The Iron Cup in Coal by Creation Evidences Museum
http://www.nwcreation.net/antediluviancivilizations.html
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Creationist Perspectives on Antediluvian (Pre-flood) Civilizations

Ancient Atomic Knowledge? by Ooparts & Ancient High Technology - Evidence of Noah's Flood
Ancient civilizations and modern man by David Criswell. Creation Magazine Vol. 17 Issue 2
Currents of conspiracy
History, Pre-History, Archaeology, and Evolution News Archive
Forbidden Archeology by Michael A. Cremo @ Amazon.com
Fossilized Human Finger by
Preflood Traditions The Weakness of John Pilkey's Origin of the Nations by Roy L. Hales
Signs of Ancient City off Cuba 2/01/01
The mystery of ancient man by Steve Cardno. Creation Magazine Vol. 20 Issue 2
The Riddle of the Ooparts by Charles Scott Kimball
Underwater Cities; Noah's Flood Proof? by Ooparts & Ancient High Technology - Evidence of Noah's Flood
http://www.nwcreation.net/antediluviancivilizations.html
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anduin said:
I wanted to share this link, it is a nice graphical representation of mankind's geographic journey as evidence by mitochondrial DNA and archaeology. To me the remarkable thing is how both biology and archaeology match this story, so settlements and art are found precisely where the genetic drift tells us they will be found.

http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/
Click to expand...

Thank you for that fascinating and informative link. I am sadden that so many YEC's will dismiss all of that and instead insist that the entire population of the world is descended from a dozen people who lived 4000 years ago.
 
anduin said:
I wanted to share this link, it is a nice graphical representation of mankind's geographic journey as evidence by mitochondrial DNA and archaeology. To me the remarkable thing is how both biology and archaeology match this story, so settlements and art are found precisely where the genetic drift tells us they will be found.

http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/
Click to expand...

Yes, thanks for posting this! A treasure-trove of information, providing not only a chart of humanity's geographical odyssey across 160,000 years from Africa to the tips of South America and northern Europe, but buttons at each key site to open up windows with detailed images and text. Utterly fascinating! Highly recommended! The history of humanity in a single interactive chart!
 
Meadmaker said:
I agree with the above. I agree that comments along the lines of "All religion is stupid, therefore the belief in the ark is stupid." are not really on topic.

The reason I commented on Iamme's contributions, but not on the others, was that his particular one seemed to draw a bit more response and threatened to derail the thread away from a topic I was interested in. My particular area of interest is belief in Biblical literalism, especially the belief in the deluge as a real, historical, event. I see Young Earth Creationism as so closely intertwined with that belief that it is almost unavoidable to separate the two. Discussion of the general plausibility of the theory of evolution pushes that limit, but, again, is so closely intertwined with literalist belief that it can't be completely separated. However, I think Iamme was going a bit farther abroad in his discussion and, moreover, those who responded to him were also deviating from the main topic of the thread, which is Noah's Flood and the most recent in a series of many ark discoveries, or even the peripheral topics of Young Earth Creationism and the plausibility of evolution.
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Sorry. Did not mean to derail. Do I believe in the Flood, or literal Biblical translation, especialy the old law(testament). Here is what I think: I believe due to lack of other things to do back then, deep thinkers gave it their all in trying to be the (first)ones who could philosophize about God the best, and elevate themselves above their peers, and to become their religious leaders and/or be given some title, like prophet or something. They gave a great deal of thought as to how they thought things happened and their reason God may have had for it.

Interestingly, the Bible is supposed to be the inspired word of God. What makes that statement interesting is that they do not claim God wrote it, but man did, with inspiration from God. Well, if a person believes that God created all things, including man and his brain...it stands to reason that then everything that comes from the mouth of man is inspired by God.

So if we agree that that makes some sense, then were all or even some of the "Bible stories" true? Was the creation account itself true? Did God create all things in literally 6 days, and did God need to really 'rest' on a 7th day? Was it true that man sinned and caused death to not only come to Adam and Eve but every succeeding generation? Was the initial sin the reason man has to toil(work)...as opposed to basically enjoying the Earth and simply going around doing nothing but eating berries or whatever? Did Moses part the Red Sea? Did people start speaking different languages because the Tower of Babel was getting up in the heavens too close to God, so God confounded them and gave them different languages and scattered them across the globe? Was the great flood true? Is the reason why a rainbow exists to show man God will never again send a great flood? Was Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed in a rather supernatural way? Did Lots wife turn into a pillar of salt for looking back on the destruction? Did Jonah get swallowed by a great fish or whale and was spit back out?

I am as skeptical as you guys when it comes to these accounts. Yet I believe in a God.

I think we all know that it is claimed that God can do anything. Yet we also know that God does not shout out from the heavens, letting us all know that he exists. It could be because that is his choice, for whatever reason. Or it could be that he actually can't. And we and other creatures of the creation are his instruments.

I've enjoyed pondering over such matters for years.

Off-topic: Anyone else have trouble while typing that suddenly the post jumps back up to the quote, and you repeatdly have to scroll back down to continue. Etc., etc. Another forum I post on ...I do not have that problem.
 
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Iamme said:
Off-topic: Anyone else have trouble while typing that suddenly the post jumps back up to the quote, and you repeatdly have to scroll back down to continue. Etc., etc. Another forum I post on ...I do not have that problem.
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when that happens (as it does for me) its easiest to just click the box on the bottom right under the text window marked "go advanced"
;)
 
Radrook said:
I searched on google and vfound this:
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you can find all sorts of believer crap on google, none of it is supported though and most of it is laughably in use by more than one pseudo history camp. Like how most of the items you listed have been used by Hindu OEC to attempt to prove that mankind has been around for millions of years while at the same time being used by christian creationists to prove a recent great flood while also being used to prove ancient aliens as well as tran dimensional beings and pretty miuch every flavour of the pseudo history market (and I include biblical literalists in that because lets face it, they invented pseudo history)
:D

its all nonsense I'm afraid, not that youre actually reading this to know as you have half the members on your block list. So I guess that might show half those readers why people like you still think that kind of crapola is relevant and don't realise what a cretin
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=cretin
you just made yourself look by posting it.
Willfull ignorance, for some people an exasperating demonstration of illogical behaviour, for others the foundation of a whole belief system
:p

Olowkow said:
Just doing a little research, they are all easily shown to be either nonsense or dubious.
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I've looked into all of them in depth, the london hammer is by far the most ridiculous claim made for a hammer of all time
it goes something like this
Christian fundie "hey I found a hammer with an encrustration on it"
Christian fundie historian "hmmm it looks like a turn of the century prospectors hammer"
Christian fundie geologist "hey that can't be right, it takes hundreds of years for an encrustation to occour"
Christian fundie "well surely that means that it must be a hammer left over from before the flood, to prove it all we need do is have the handle carbon dated"
Christian fundie geologist and historian together "thats a great idea, only oops we already gave it to Carl E. Baugh and he doesn't need to get it tested scientifically as he has faith instead"
http://paleo.cc/paluxy/hammer.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Baugh
:D
 
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Iamme said:
Do I believe in the Flood, or literal Biblical translation, especialy the old law(testament).

[snip]
Was the great flood true? .... I am as skeptical as you guys when it comes to these accounts. Yet I believe in a God.
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No, Iamme, you are not "as skeptical as us guys when it comes to these accounts." Skeptics follow the evidence. There is no extra-Biblical evidence of a flood. In fact, all available evidence points to there not being a flood in the past 10,000 years.
 
Iamme said:
Sorry. Did not mean to derail. Do I believe in the Flood, or literal Biblical translation, especialy the old law(testament). Here is what I think: I believe due to lack of other things to do back then, deep thinkers gave it their all in trying to be the (first)ones who could philosophize about God the best, and elevate themselves above their peers, and to become their religious leaders and/or be given some title, like prophet or something. They gave a great deal of thought as to how they thought things happened and their reason God may have had for it.

Interestingly, the Bible is supposed to be the inspired word of God. What makes that statement interesting is that they do not claim God wrote it, but man did, with inspiration from God. Well, if a person believes that God created all things, including man and his brain...it stands to reason that then everything that comes from the mouth of man is inspired by God.

So if we agree that that makes some sense, then were all or even some of the "Bible stories" true? Was the creation account itself true? Did God create all things in literally 6 days, and did God need to really 'rest' on a 7th day? Was it true that man sinned and caused death to not only come to Adam and Eve but every succeeding generation? Was the initial sin the reason man has to toil(work)...as opposed to basically enjoying the Earth and simply going around doing nothing but eating berries or whatever? Did Moses part the Red Sea? Did people start speaking different languages because the Tower of Babel was getting up in the heavens too close to God, so God confounded them and gave them different languages and scattered them across the globe? Was the great flood true? Is the reason why a rainbow exists to show man God will never again send a great flood? Was Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed in a rather supernatural way? Did Lots wife turn into a pillar of salt for looking back on the destruction? Did Jonah get swallowed by a great fish or whale and was spit back out?

I am as skeptical as you guys when it comes to these accounts. Yet I believe in a God.

I think we all know that it is claimed that God can do anything. Yet we also know that God does not shout out from the heavens, letting us all know that he exists. It could be because that is his choice, for whatever reason. Or it could be that he actually can't. And we and other creatures of the creation are his instruments.

I've enjoyed pondering over such matters for years.

Off-topic: Anyone else have trouble while typing that suddenly the post jumps back up to the quote, and you repeatdly have to scroll back down to continue. Etc., etc. Another forum I post on ...I do not have that problem.
Click to expand...


tl;dr
 
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Radrook said:
I searched on google and vfound this:
Click to expand...

I didn't read the whole thing, but I read enough to get what I was looking for. Assuming that the second site listed is typical of literalist belief, the dominant belief is that all written records are post deluge.

Here's where I have a problem with that. According to the Bible, 335 years passed between the time of the flood, and the birth of Abram. (That's Abraham for those not up on your Old Testament. Abram was his given name, which he changed to Abraham after he became the first Jew.) Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph led relatively normal, only slightly extended, lifespans. Joseph went to the land of Egypt, where he was apparently present at the court of a Middle Egyptian Pharoah. A few generations later, we have Moses, who is traditionally associated with Ramses, although I suppose that could be in error. Either way, though, after Moses, we get into some historically verifiable events for which we have written records, and so can be dated more precisely.

Unfortunately for a literal interpretation of the Bible, Egyptian written records extend back more than 335 years before what must have been the time of Abraham. Meanwhile, Chinese and Indian civilizations have continuous historical records that would extend back to antedeluvian eras, if the chronology of the descendants of Shem in Genesis is to be believed.

How do literalists get around this problem of reconciling the independent historical records that would extend Egyptian, Chinese, and Indian civilization back into an era that would predate the flood if the Bible were to be believed?
 
Off-topic: Anyone else have trouble while typing that suddenly the post jumps back up to the quote, and you repeatdly have to scroll back down to continue. Etc., etc. Another forum I post on ...I do not have that problem.
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Hmm. Radrook has reported similar problems. Are you two sharing a computer?
 
The good folks at answersingenesis have posted a good chronology explaining exactly when Noah's flood occurred

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v4/i1/noahs_flood.asp


At the end of the article, it notes the same problem I noted, that if the Bible is true, then all of the civilizations known to us from history and archeology have to go back no longer than 2304 BC. It says it will address this in later articles.

Should be amusing.
 
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Meadmaker said:
The good folks at answersingenesis have posted a good chronology explaining exactly when Noah's flood occurred

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v4/i1/noahs_flood.asp


At the end of the article, it notes the same problem I noted, that if the Bible is true, then all of the civilizations known to us from history and archeology have to go back no longer than 2304 BC. It says it will address this in later articles.

Should be amusing.
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Answers in Genesis can't answer that question, but others already have. try
http://www.genesisveracity.com/Articles/Article9.htm
although of course, this is not generally accepted outside of groups who make answersingenesis look like the salvation army
:D
 
Marduk said:
Answers in Genesis can't answer that question, but others already have. try
http://www.genesisveracity.com/Articles/Article9.htm
although of course, this is not generally accepted outside of groups who make answersingenesis look like the salvation army
:D
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That's so weird.

So, does anyone want to actually defend this stuff?

Keep in mind, 154 in particular, that when you say that not all scientists agree on certain interpretations of geology or world history, the guys on the pro-literalist side are the sort of people who write papers like the one linked above.
 
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