Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[Bruce Fischer]

You claim to disagree with Massei's report. So you either read Italian, have a translated copy, or you haven't read the Massei report to know what you disagree with.

Which is it?

I have read enough of it to know that I disagree with it. Furthermore, I have seen the evidence and I believe the experts that have explained this evidence to me.

Massei believes that Amanda and Raffaele are guilty. Of course, I disagree with him.


PMF will finish all of their hard work with the translation and it will change nothing.

PMF members already believe that Amanda and Raffaele are guilty. They don't need to see the report. No matter what the report says, they will nod their heads in unison and agree.

The rest of the world is well aware that the report is the judge's interpretation of the evidence. It is not evidence. The report will not change anyone's opinion of the case.

 

[Mary_H]

As an Amanda supporter have you ever tried to look at the evidence from any other starting point other than 'she's innocent therefore this is all contamination, planted, or made up'? If my partner did do his own research and skeptical analysis on this and then arrived at his conclusions I would be very inclined to believe he is right. However he hasn't, it's pure gut instinct with him.

I think 99.99% of news consumers started out believing Amanda was guilty, because we just naturally believe headlines when we see them and don't stop believing them until we have had time for reflection. I imagine the day the story came out in Seattle, people all over tiown were saying things like, "Did you see where that gal killed that other gal in Italy?" People say stuff like that to each other all the time, just repeating what they've seen in the papers.

People's guts do seem to be playing an unusually large role in this ongoing conflict, though. The Perugians' guts got Amanda arrested and convicted, while Seattleites' guts know that someone like Amanda isn't capable of committing a group knife murder. I think your partner's gut should be trusted to the extent that he has knowledge of the types of people who do and don't commit certain types of crimes. He must be aware of at least some of the facts of the case just to be able to talk about it.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

I have read enough of it to know that I disagree with it. Furthermore, I have seen the evidence and I believe the experts that have explained this evidence to me.

Massei believes that Amanda and Raffaele are guilty. Of course, I disagree with him.


PMF will finish all of their hard work with the translation and it will change nothing.

PMF members already believe that Amanda and Raffaele are guilty. They don't need to see the report. No matter what the report says, they will nod their heads in unison and agree.

The rest of the world is well aware that the report is the judge's interpretation of the evidence. It is not evidence. The report will not change anyone's opinion of the case.

So, then you haven't read the report. You're just taking it on faith that the report is wrong?

 

[Dan O.]

The Polizia appear to have followed procedures--including not damaging the property. They did not disrobe and take a shower or phone in the call with bits and pieces of information.

That's right. They didn't phone in at all. Door left open, window broken, blood splatter in the bath, locked door, missing roommate⁺; they are the trained professionals and they didn't think this added up to anything worth bothering the police with. Yet you criticize Amanda for not calling the police immediately when she had only a fraction of that information.

(+) and the two phones found discarded several blocks away.

At least two of the Postal Police officers testified at length during the trial about their arrival, the taking of information, and finally the decision to allow one of the boys to break down Meredith's door.

They accomplished all this in a relatively short time.

So now you are accepting that they didn't hang around for 20 minutes twiddling their thumbs?

The term "alibi email of 04 NOV 2007" is in common usage here...

WRONG.

The term is used by a single poster in this thread:

[Post 1333]
Author : stilicho
Date : 20th December 2009 11:03 AM
the detailed alibi email to her two dozen friends

[Post 5722]
Author : stilicho
Date : 26th March 2010 12:17 PM
Her memory is perfect and clear in her "alibi email" of 04 NOV 2007,

[Post 8266]
Author : stilicho
Date : 24th April 2010 07:15 PM
I agree that the alibi email of 04 NOV 2007

[Post 9576]
Author : stilicho
Date : 30th April 2010 02:55 PM
She writes about it in her alibi email of 04 NOV 2007.

[Post 10893]
Author : stilicho
Date : 5th May 2010 01:25 AM
We even know, from the contents of AK's 04 NOV 2007 alibi email

[Post 10969]
Author : stilicho
Date : 5th May 2010 12:48 PM
her 04 NOV 2007 alibi email.

[Post 11258]
Author : stilicho
Date : 7th May 2010 11:51 PM
It's because of her 04 NOV 2007 alibi email.

[Post 11697]
Author : stilicho
Date : 11th May 2010 04:22 AM
And don't forget that her alibi email of 04 NOV 2007

[Post 11713]
Author : stilicho
Date : 11th May 2010 10:09 AM
That was part of the purpose of the alibi email of 04 NOV 2007.
​

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

I just keep reading and reading on here, but there is something I'm a bit curious about:

It's actually quite easy to decode which posters are Amanda supporters and which clearly are not.

What would be interesting to know though, is how many feel she is guilty or innocent just based of the fact that they don't believe that she was actually in the room when the murder took place, but was somewhat involved to some degree.

 

[stilicho]

How many times are you going to try to get away with this, stilicho? There is no musing (except on the part of the police) about Meredith's sexual practices in Amanda's e-mail. Here is the quote (AGAIN):

"at the house they asked me very personal questions about meredith's life and also about the personalities of our neighbors. how well did i know them? pretty well, we are friends. was meredith sexually active? yeah, she borrowed a few of my condoms. does she like anal? wtf? i dont know. does she use vaseline? for her lips? what kind of person is stefano? nice guy, has a really pretty girlfriend. hmmm...very interesting..."

Incidentally, I, for one, did not know what you were referring to when you mentioned Amanda's "spam list." For a minute there, I thought you were claiming there were two e-mails.

The alibi email you referenced is from Amanda and not from the police. It was Amanda musing about Meredith's sexual practices and she simply wanted to share her 'concerns' with her spam list. Perhaps we live in different worlds. Mine is one where private concerns are kept private. Amanda's and yours is one where speculation about a murdered roommate's sexual practices are sent to two dozen people so everyone knows exactly what you think of her.

And adding that it is just so darned inconvenient that she paid the rent and can't live there any more.

 

[stilicho]

The term is used by a single poster in this thread:

[Post 1333]
Author : stilicho
Date : 20th December 2009 11:03 AM
the detailed alibi email to her two dozen friends

[Post 5722]
Author : stilicho
Date : 26th March 2010 12:17 PM
Her memory is perfect and clear in her "alibi email" of 04 NOV 2007,

[Post 8266]
Author : stilicho
Date : 24th April 2010 07:15 PM
I agree that the alibi email of 04 NOV 2007

[Post 9576]
Author : stilicho
Date : 30th April 2010 02:55 PM
She writes about it in her alibi email of 04 NOV 2007.

[Post 10893]
Author : stilicho
Date : 5th May 2010 01:25 AM
We even know, from the contents of AK's 04 NOV 2007 alibi email

[Post 10969]
Author : stilicho
Date : 5th May 2010 12:48 PM
her 04 NOV 2007 alibi email.

[Post 11258]
Author : stilicho
Date : 7th May 2010 11:51 PM
It's because of her 04 NOV 2007 alibi email.

[Post 11697]
Author : stilicho
Date : 11th May 2010 04:22 AM
And don't forget that her alibi email of 04 NOV 2007

[Post 11713]
Author : stilicho
Date : 11th May 2010 10:09 AM
That was part of the purpose of the alibi email of 04 NOV 2007.
​

Seems as though it is in common usage then. And nobody is confused, to quote Amanda, about what it means.

You certainly picked up on it quickly enough.

 

[HumanityBlues]

The alibi email you referenced is from Amanda and not from the police. It was Amanda musing about Meredith's sexual practices and she simply wanted to share her 'concerns' with her spam list. Perhaps we live in different worlds. Mine is one where private concerns are kept private. Amanda's and yours is one where speculation about a murdered roommate's sexual practices are sent to two dozen people so everyone knows exactly what you think of her.

And adding that it is just so darned inconvenient that she paid the rent and can't live there any more.

How is that "musing about Amanda's sexual practices" by repeating what the police were asking her? You have a very prejudicial way of looking at nothingness. Good lord.

 

[stilicho]

I think 99.99% of news consumers started out believing Amanda was guilty, because we just naturally believe headlines when we see them and don't stop believing them until we have had time for reflection. I imagine the day the story came out in Seattle, people all over tiown were saying things like, "Did you see where that gal killed that other gal in Italy?" People say stuff like that to each other all the time, just repeating what they've seen in the papers.

You either don't live within range of the Seattle media or you're ignoring what they said. It was the Seattle media that prompted the person who posted the original claim to suggest that the medieval Inquisition in Italy interpreted cartwheeling Amanda as proof of Satanic possession. The OP still believes that to be the case--she said as much on tsig's poll. The OP lives in the Seattle area.

The reality is that those who know Amanda well from her UW days are prevented from explaining to the media what she's really like. There's a lucrative and fashionable industry entrenched now and you've been sucked in by its enchanting allure.

Amanda will have to live with the brand of a violent sex offender long after her release.

 

[stilicho]

How is that "musing about Amanda's sexual practices" by repeating what the police were asking her? You have a very prejudicial way of looking at nothingness. Good lord.

Amanda wrote it. I wouldn't have even thought it was important. She thought her spam list would enjoy knowing how she felt about Meredith.

Such a sweetheart.

 

[HumanityBlues]

Amanda wrote it. I wouldn't have even thought it was important. She thought her spam list would enjoy knowing how she felt about Meredith.

Such a sweetheart.

Your argument about it is by far one of the lamest and most emotional that has been put forth on this forum. I don't agree with most of your arguments, but at least they aren't usually as emotional and lame as the one about that line in the email.

By the way, what does one learn about Meredith's sex life from that email? Diddily squat. Who is musing about Meredith's sex life in the email? No one.

You've really started to lose originality in your arguments. Your jump to conclusions on that quote was Nancy Graceish.

 

[stilicho]

Your argument about it is by far one of the lamest and most emotional that has been put forth on this forum. I don't agree with most of your arguments, but at least they aren't usually as emotional and lame as the one about that line in the email.

Amanda wasn't placed in jail because she was insensitive. She was put there because of the mountain of evidence against her and those who participated in the violent sexual assault and murder.

Her alibi email is simply instructive about the state of mind of the person who committed the crime. That's all.

 

[HumanityBlues]

Amanda wasn't placed in jail because she was insensitive. She was put there because of the mountain of evidence against her and those who participated in the violent sexual assault and murder.

Her alibi email is simply instructive about the state of mind of the person who committed the crime. That's all.

Ya, and look at how you analyze that state of mind. You read X and you say it is Y. You even gave us the quote, and it didn't exemplify anything that you stated it did. You might as well have said Amanda Knox was really showing her true colors on her thoughts about South American imperialism, because that's how far removed your interpretation of that quote was. I was actually dumbfounded the great leap you were willing to take.

Blowing it off because she wasn't arrested for being "insensitive" doesn't make your argument any less emotional or illogical. It makes me wonder where else you apply this kind of emotional reasoning in this case.

 

[stilicho]

Ya, and look at how you analyze that state of mind.

What do you make of it?

 

[Mary_H]

You either don't live within range of the Seattle media or you're ignoring what they said. It was the Seattle media that prompted the person who posted the original claim to suggest that the medieval Inquisition in Italy interpreted cartwheeling Amanda as proof of Satanic possession. The OP still believes that to be the case--she said as much on tsig's poll. The OP lives in the Seattle area.

The reality is that those who know Amanda well from her UW days are prevented from explaining to the media what she's really like. There's a lucrative and fashionable industry entrenched now and you've been sucked in by its enchanting allure.

I really wish you would stop using these obscure initials and acronyms and abbreviations for everything. What the **** does "OP" mean? The Owl and the Pussycat?

No one who knew Amanda well from her UW days was ever prevented from saying anything about Amanda. Journalists from Europe interviewed Amanda's friends and acquaintances before her parents even knew what had hit them. How do you propose anyone was prevented from talking to the press?

The Seattle Times shows that the Friends of Amanda was formed in October of 2008 -- almost one year after the crime. And guess what -- no one even commented on the first article about them. As time goes on, though, we can see the guilters creeping in... There's Harry Rag and his minions, pushing tjmk and pmf in the Times threads, as soon as it was announced that the Friends of Amanda were setting up a website.

I particularly like this comment: "Hang the slut." I have a feeling that if we took a count from the first year, we would find many more posts like that than posts supporting Amanda. The dominant news in the first year or even two -- in Seattle as well as elsewhere -- was negative, not a "lucrative and fashionable industry."

http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/crime/2009/01/19/friends_of_amanda_knox_launch.html

This case started being covered more regularly in the Seattle news media only as the verdict drew closer. By that time, the media had finally figured out what was going on.

 

[Mary_H]

Ya, and look at how you analyze that state of mind. You read X and you say it is Y. You even gave us the quote, and it didn't exemplify anything that you stated it did. You might as well have said Amanda Knox was really showing her true colors on her thoughts about South American imperialism, because that's how far removed your interpretation of that quote was. I was actually dumbfounded the great leap you were willing to take.

Blowing it off because she wasn't arrested for being "insensitive" doesn't make your argument any less emotional or illogical. It makes me wonder where else you apply this kind of emotional reasoning in this case.

Good call, HB. Fulcanelli and stilicho grow loonier by the argument. Pretty soon it's all going to be up to BobTheDonkey.

 

[stilicho]

This case started being covered more regularly in the Seattle news media only as the verdict drew closer. By that time, the media had finally figured out what was going on.

I'd never even heard of her until the verdict. It wasn't a prominent news story until then. The first time I'd heard about it was from a report that said Amanda was accused of Satanic possession or some such nonsense.

Then I read the OP here and none of the news outlets could even agree on the length of her interrogation.

We'll just have to leave it up to the Italian justice system to determine how long she's going to stay in prison as punishment for her crimes. So far they've done a good job.

 

[Fine]

That turnip juice

If we grant, for the purpose of discussion, that the substance Amanda and Raffaele were tracking around---in the hallway and in her bedroom---was not blood, you do have to wonder how it got on the soles of their feet. Whatever it was, we know that they didn't paint it onto their feet with a paintbrush. Instead, DUH, they must have stepped in it. And yet no source of that "mystery substance" was detected with Luminol...such as a pool of turnip juice under Amanda's desk. Okay, so Amanda or Raffaele, wiped up the spill after they'd both stepped in it while barefoot, using, say, a rag or a paper towel. But in that case surely there would be a shadow of the "mystery substance" left behind, which would show up under Luminol as a large smudge or smear. But, to the best of my knowledge, not even a shadow of pooled "mystery substance" was detected.

I know it's been suggested that the "mystery substance' is none other than water found in the bathroom shower, possibly contaminated with rust or cleaning agents. But that don't make no sense. If true, wouldn't there also be Luminol-revealed bare footprints in the bathroom too? None found. And besides, has anyone ever said that Raffaele ever showered at the cottage? Also, if the water is contaminated--- and since Amanda showered daily---wouldn't there be many more of her Luminol-revealed prints left from previous days?

But speaking of smudges, it so happens that Barbie Nadeau does mention smudges, "smudges on the floor"---smudges of blood---visible in Meredith's bedroom. ("Angel Face," page 168 and again on page 169.) When you conjoin this with the undisputed fact that there is also a bare footprint in blood, on the bathmat, a few feet away from Amanda's and Raffaele's bare footprints in "mystery substance," the simplest explanation is that the "mystery substance" in none other than blood. And if blood, there would be no mystery as to the source or how they stepped in it, any more than how Rudy stepped in it.

"The simplest answers are always the right answers." ---Steve Moore (Elapsed time of videotape=35:24, KIRO FM)

 

[RoseMontague]

I have read enough of it to know that I disagree with it. Furthermore, I have seen the evidence and I believe the experts that have explained this evidence to me.

Massei believes that Amanda and Raffaele are guilty. Of course, I disagree with him.


PMF will finish all of their hard work with the translation and it will change nothing.

PMF members already believe that Amanda and Raffaele are guilty. They don't need to see the report. No matter what the report says, they will nod their heads in unison and agree.

The rest of the world is well aware that the report is the judge's interpretation of the evidence. It is not evidence. The report will not change anyone's opinion of the case.

Just from reading the google translation, I have learned a lot. I just am not certain I am reading it correctly because it is such a poor translation. For the group that is undecided it may very well change some minds, in my opinion.

One thing I am getting frustrated with is the use of such phrases as "when you read the report", "the report makes it very clear", "the report which I have and you don't", etc., etc. Can we just agree that arguments using a report that someone else can't read are pretty much worthless.

PMF just needs to give us the darn report, already. And Bruce, I get it that the innocent side of the argument doesn't want to translate this report and get it out there so others can read it. But if you don't translate it, how can you know that the PMF translation will be a fair one? Based on your comments, you don't seem to trust them on anything else.

 

[RoseMontague]

If we grant, for the purpose of discussion, that the substance Amanda and Raffaele were tracking around---in the hallway and in her bedroom---was not blood, you do have to wonder how it got on the soles of their feet. Whatever it was, we know that they didn't paint it onto their feet with a paintbrush. Instead, DUH, they must have stepped in it. And yet no source of that "mystery substance" was detected with Luminol...such as a pool of turnip juice under Amanda's desk. Okay, so Amanda or Raffaele, wiped up the spill after they'd both stepped in it while barefoot, using, say, a rag or a paper towel. But in that case surely there would be a shadow of the "mystery substance" left behind, which would show up under Luminol as a large smudge or smear. But, to the best of my knowledge, not even a shadow of pooled "mystery substance" was detected.

I know it's been suggested that the "mystery substance' is none other than water found in the bathroom shower, possibly contaminated with rust or cleaning agents. But that don't make no sense. If true, wouldn't there also be Luminol-revealed bare footprints in the bathroom too? None found. And besides, has anyone ever said that Raffaele ever showered at the cottage? Also, if the water is contaminated--- and since Amanda showered daily---wouldn't there be many more of her Luminol-revealed prints left from previous days?

But speaking of smudges, it so happens that Barbie Nadeau does mention "smudges"---smudges of blood---visible on the floor of Meredith's bedroom. ("Angel Face," page 168 and again on page 169.) When you conjoin this with the undisputed fact that there is also a bare footprint in blood, on the bathmat, a few feet away from Amanda's and Raffaele's bare footprints in "mystery substance," the simplest explanation is that the "mystery substance" in none other than blood. And if blood, there would be no mystery as to how they stepped in it, any more than how Rudy stepped in it.

"The simplest answers are always the right answers." ---Steve Moore (Elapsed time of videotape=35:24, KIRO FM)

This is thing about Steve Moore's articles I don't like. He makes too many absolute statements using words like always and impossible. I appreciate the man's service to my country and I have no doubt he is an expert. Experts are not always right when they use terms like impossible. I stop taking people seriously when they throw words like those around.

Bruce, perhaps you might want to talk to him about that.