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Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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You keep seeming to be referring to Mignini as a "judge". He was, and is, a public prosecutor. Or are you referring to someone else altogether who ordered the police to arrest Lumumba at 6am on the 6th?

Actually, he's a judge...an investigating magistrate...it's very similar to the French system (they are Napoleonic code also). The investigating judge has a dual role of overseeing the investigation of the case and prosecuting it in court. There are different types of judges even in the common law system...magistrates, Crown Court Judges, High Court Judges (until recently, the Lords). In the Italian system, prosecutors are in fact judges, but a different kind...they hold powers that prosecutors in common law do not as well as lacking certain powers that common law prosecutors have (common law prosecutors formulate the charges and make the decision whether to proceed to trial, where in Italy that is down to the court judges). An Italian court judge sits on the bench, as judges do in the common law system. The Italian prosecutor is a judge who works in the field. He's not a policeman, yet he performs part of the role the police do in our system all the same.
 
How else would they find the accounts?

This is indefensible but keep trying.

There is a reason why more people read http://www.injusticeinperugia.org Than both TJMK and PMF combined.

First and foremost, the truth eventually prevails. Secondly, I don't stalk little girls.

I've just been introduced to Injustice in Perugia. I believe this is your website, Bruce Fisher?

I don't agree with everything I've read there, but the website is very well done and a breath of fresh air. Thanks for your effort, and keep up the good work.
 
LondonJohn said:
It's a bit extreme and unjustified to call Steve Moore an idiot, I'd argue. He was a long-serving FBI agent with very strong testimonials. I happen to disagree with certain parts of his analysis. I also happen to believe that he might, to a small degree, have allowed himself to become too subjective in parts, and that he might be enjoying his renaissance a bit too much sometimes. That doesn't make him an idiot. Far from it.

Hardly. If the man doesn't bother to familiarise himself with the case enough to learn even the basic facts of it and make such critical and amateur errors and declare these errors publicly, what can he be but an idiot?
 
It's a bit extreme and unjustified to call Steve Moore an idiot, I'd argue...

Consider the source.



And again, no "we" please. That implies some sort of collective with collective thought - and I doubt that even you would want that image implied to PMF. You might write "I (and, I believe, many other posters on PMF)" instead.....

Funnicilli has admitted on this board that he continually hears a cacophony of disembodied voices in his head. This explains not only his constant references to "we", but quite a bit more, as well, I would say.


...And now THAT'S made me think of Stephen Fry in Blackadder 2...

After Fawlty Towers, the best show of all-time.
 
Actually, he's a judge...an investigating magistrate...it's very similar to the French system (they are Napoleonic code also). The investigating judge has a dual role of overseeing the investigation of the case and prosecuting it in court. There are different types of judges even in the common law system...magistrates, Crown Court Judges, High Court Judges (until recently, the Lords). In the Italian system, prosecutors are in fact judges, but a different kind...they hold powers that prosecutors in common law do not as well as lacking certain powers that common law prosecutors have (common law prosecutors formulate the charges and make the decision whether to proceed to trial, where in Italy that is down to the court judges). An Italian court judge sits on the bench, as judges do in the common law system. The Italian prosecutor is a judge who works in the field. He's not a policeman, yet he performs part of the role the police do in our system all the same.

That's a very good clarification - and I'm grateful for it. And it shows I was wrong in my assumed knowledge of the roles and responsibilities of various parties in the Italian legal system.

I suppose the one thing I WOULD say is that it can be very confusing, when talking about the Italian legal system using English terms or translations, to get misled by this sort of thing - it can be very easy to equate certain words with certain roles. In this case, the English word "Judge" implies a totally disinterested party who is solely involved with ensuring that the law is applied evenly and justly. However it's clear that Judge Mignini was acting primarily in what could be termed the role of Public Prosecutor ("PM" in Italian). He was therefore REQUIRED to "take sides" in order to perform this duty - which is something that's anathema to any English-language definition of the word "Judge".
 
interrogation on November fifth

Here are other views of the Knox interrogation on 5 November:

Murder in Italy, p. 209, describing Edda’s meeting with Amanda on 10/11/07
“Edda said later. ‘She told me that they asked her things and she’d say no, that didn’t happen, but they were like, oh, don’t worry, just let us write that down.’”

Murder in Italy, p. 294,
“As Douglas Preston commented later in the Observer, her original statements were written in Italian police parlance.”

Douglas Preston, The Observer, 12/10/09
“What we do have are the two statements she signed. I have read those statements. They are written in perfect, idiomatic, bureaucratic, “police jargon” Italian. It is difficult to imagine that a foreign student, who had been in Italy for just two months, would have understood what those statements said, let alone made them herself.”
http://www.friendsofamanda.org/files/Guardian_12_10_09__Preston_article.pdf
 
Here are other views of the Knox interrogation on 5 November:

Murder in Italy, p. 209, describing Edda’s meeting with Amanda on 10/11/07
“Edda said later. ‘She told me that they asked her things and she’d say no, that didn’t happen, but they were like, oh, don’t worry, just let us write that down.’”

Murder in Italy, p. 294,
“As Douglas Preston commented later in the Observer, her original statements were written in Italian police parlance.”

Douglas Preston, The Observer, 12/10/09
“What we do have are the two statements she signed. I have read those statements. They are written in perfect, idiomatic, bureaucratic, “police jargon” Italian. It is difficult to imagine that a foreign student, who had been in Italy for just two months, would have understood what those statements said, let alone made them herself.”
http://www.friendsofamanda.org/files/Guardian_12_10_09__Preston_article.pdf
And it is STILL hard to believe that none of this night's questioning was recorded...
 
That's a very good clarification - and I'm grateful for it. And it shows I was wrong in my assumed knowledge of the roles and responsibilities of various parties in the Italian legal system.

I suppose the one thing I WOULD say is that it can be very confusing, when talking about the Italian legal system using English terms or translations, to get misled by this sort of thing - it can be very easy to equate certain words with certain roles. In this case, the English word "Judge" implies a totally disinterested party who is solely involved with ensuring that the law is applied evenly and justly. However it's clear that Judge Mignini was acting primarily in what could be termed the role of Public Prosecutor ("PM" in Italian). He was therefore REQUIRED to "take sides" in order to perform this duty - which is something that's anathema to any English-language definition of the word "Judge".

Yes, exactly, In comparing the two systems we are often comparing apples and oranges...in doing so we use terms we are familiar with (and already have fixed ideas of their roles, rights and powers)...'judge'...'jury'...'suspect'...'witness'...'prosecutor'...etc. These are terms that we have all grown up understanding. Using them helps us familiarise, but doing so also completely confuses matters. It's a double edged sword. The lines in roles and meanings cross in completely different places...because while the systems have many similarities they are at the same time completely alien.

I remember when I was younger, I watched some French film late at night. It was regarding a murder and all the way through the film it was being investigated by a 'magistrate'...police were involved in a minor sense, but the suited magistrate was playing the role that in our culture, would be played by a senior detective...like a chief inspector. I found it hard to get my head around...he's a judge, they sit in court, they don't investigate crimes...I put it down to 'foreign oddness' and just went with it. This case has taught me about the civil law system so in retrospect, I now understand it, but at the time it was very confusing.
 
Here are other views of the Knox interrogation on 5 November:

Murder in Italy, p. 209, describing Edda’s meeting with Amanda on 10/11/07
“Edda said later. ‘She told me that they asked her things and she’d say no, that didn’t happen, but they were like, oh, don’t worry, just let us write that down.’”

Murder in Italy, p. 294,
“As Douglas Preston commented later in the Observer, her original statements were written in Italian police parlance.”

Douglas Preston, The Observer, 12/10/09
“What we do have are the two statements she signed. I have read those statements. They are written in perfect, idiomatic, bureaucratic, “police jargon” Italian. It is difficult to imagine that a foreign student, who had been in Italy for just two months, would have understood what those statements said, let alone made them herself.”
http://www.friendsofamanda.org/files/Guardian_12_10_09__Preston_article.pdf

Chris,
Does she indicate that the statement was read to her before she signed it. And did the translator give her an English version before she signed it?
Is this an unusual process that the police take someone's confession down and have them sign it?
 
Hardly. If the man doesn't bother to familiarise himself with the case enough to learn even the basic facts of it and make such critical and amateur errors and declare these errors publicly, what can he be but an idiot?

Amateur compared with whom? Yourself perhaps? Are you a seasoned criminal investigator with more than two decades of professional experience under your belt? Steve Moore is. He has studied the evidence in this case, and he understands the big picture. This was a sloppy, disorganized sexual homicide committed by one guy.
 
I've just been introduced to Injustice in Perugia. I believe this is your website, Bruce Fisher?

I don't agree with everything I've read there, but the website is very well done and a breath of fresh air. Thanks for your effort, and keep up the good work.

Thank you. Many people have contributed to the Injustice site and I am happy to be able to help the cause in any way that I can. If you send me an email from the site or go to the site blog, I would be more than happy to discuss any aspects of the case with you. This thread has unfortunately become a shouting match. I will admit that I do get caught up in that on this board. It is simply impossible for me to remain silent when misinformation is posted here. Thanks again,

Bruce
 
Did Amanda hand write these statements / 'gifts'?

Charlie provided a link to the statements and the translations. These statements were prepared by the police. They were typed out and presented to Amanda to be signed.

Later that morning she wrote a letter by hand.

"If there are still parts that don't make sense, please ask me. I'm doing the best I can, just like you are. Please believe me at least in that, although I understand if you don't. All I know is that I didn't kill Meredith, and so I have nothing but lies to be afraid of."
 
Chris,
Does she indicate that the statement was read to her before she signed it. And did the translator give her an English version before she signed it?
Is this an unusual process that the police take someone's confession down and have them sign it?

It is a common practice, but it is being phased out in some jurisdictions as laws are passed requiring that statements be electronically recorded.
 
Amazer,

You stated that you feel that I am dishonest. Please explain where I have been dishonest.


Do you honestly think that I believe Amanda is guilty and I am protecting her anyway?
 
Steve Moore wrote a personal motivation document that highlights his distinguished career and discusses the reasons why he knew he had an obligation to get involved.

MY OWN PERSONAL “MOTIVATION DOCUMENT”

Mine, however, will be based on truth.


I have no axe to grind with the Italian legal system. There are things I prefer about their system, and things I prefer about our system. Generally, they are blessed with modern, experienced law enforcement.

In my career, I have worked closely with the Indonesian National Police (INP), the Pakistan Rangers, the Sindh Police (Karachi, Pakistan), the National Bureau of Investigation (NBI) of the Philippines, the Philippine National Police (PNP), the Royal Bahamas Police Force (RBP) and various police agencies in Greece, Thailand, and other countries. I have lectured on investigative techniques and terrorism at the International Law Enforcement Academy (ILEA) in Bangkok, the Pacific Training Institute in Angeles City, Philippines and Honolulu, and terrorism conferences throughout the US and other countries. I have taught officers from such diverse countries as the People’s Republic of China, Bermuda, Brunei, Taiwan, Malaysia and Sri Lanka. I also served as a (term) Legal Attaché at a U.S. Consulate overseas. I do not look down at foreign police forces. I appreciate the differences in our approaches, but what is never different between our agencies is the reliance on logic, reason and credible evidence.

What happened in Perugia, I believe, is an anomaly, but it is not endemic to Italy. A similar case recently occurred in the United States. In March, 2006, a black female college student working as an exotic dancer accused three white Duke University Lacrosse Team members of raping her at a party. Prosecutor Mike Nifong immediately went public and charged three members of the team for forcible rape. He then began collecting DNA and other evidence.

The behavior of the three players, including E-mails between them raised suspicion, as they included allusions to violence and sex. Their behavior made the prosecutor believe they were guilty. They were pilloried in the media and publicly arrested. During the subsequent investigation, however, Nifong was found to be manipulating DNA results and withholding evidence from the defense teams. He even alleged that the attack was race-related. However, by April, 2007, it was apparent that no rape had occurred, and that the credibility of the witness was near zero. Nifong had grossly misused his office and attempted to frame the players in order to further his career. Charges against the players were dropped, and Nifong was charged with ethics violations. He was disbarred in June 2007 for “dishonesty, fraud, deceit and misrepresentation.” He was also found guilty of criminal contempt and served one day in jail.

As I have explained before, I was initially biased with regard to the Kercher murder. I believed that Amanda Knox was guilty, as I had no reason not to trust the authorities in Perugia. I’m the kind of guy that threw things at my TV when O.J. Simpson was acquitted after he murdered two people. To put it lightly, I am about the last person to go to bat for an accused person. It was only after researching the case (at no one’s behest) that I discovered that Amanda was innocent, and that the prosecutors have more motive to convict Amanda Knox than Amanda Knox had to murder Meredith Kercher.

I have no desire to have a ‘cause’, and certainly no desire for anything other than anonymity, even obscurity. But I could not see this injustice and do nothing, any more than a doctor could see a person collapse and fail to render assistance, or a fireman hear the cries of children inside a burning house and stand idly by. Current FBI Agents are prohibited from expressing their opinions on this case, but I have recently retired. The investigation and prosecution of crime is what I know. I would be negligent and criminally cold-hearted if I did not stand up and shout that an injustice had occurred.

I have spent years participating in prosecutions; two years on one death-penalty trial alone. There are several people who will die in prison, in part because of investigations that I have conducted and testified to. I have received four awards from the United States Attorney’s Office for excellence in investigation. I was nominated in 2002 for the FBI’s top award for Terrorism Investigations. I am educated in the art of evaluating evidence and testimony. To put it bluntly, I know “**** from Shinola”.

I will not accept a dime for anything I do on this case. When Amanda Knox goes home to her family, you will never hear from me again. It is up to the reader whether they want to put more faith in my experience, training and motives, or the words of tabloid “journalists” who make their living from the tragedy of others. Some of these writers have never previously reported on anything with more gravitas than dining and travel, but bill themselves as “experts” on this case, simply because they sat through it. I could sit through a hundred symphonies and still not be able to play violin or read music.

(My credentials and supporting documents are available for review by reputable and credentialed journalists).
 
Steve Moore wrote a personal motivation document that highlights his distinguished career and discusses the reasons why he knew he had an obligation to get involved.

MY OWN PERSONAL “MOTIVATION DOCUMENT”

...etc...

Steve's opinion has been duly weighed and found to be irrelevant.

Someone must have forgotten to tell him there were trials and verdicts already. His opinion wasn't important then and it isn't important now.
 
Do you really put a lot of stock in facebook friends? I have plenty of facebook friends I don't like or don't talk to. They make a lot of stupid links just by using Google on PMF. Did you know I found some interesting information about Elizabeth Johnson's role as an expert witness in US courts? Were I to just use Google and Facebook, I would think the only think Professor Johnson did was piss off some state prosecutor in Texas one day in her life.

I don't put any stock in it. You asked a question and I replied to it.

What do you think the chances are that Johnson and Hampikian will be called as expert witnesses on appeal? Halkides? They present themselves as experts. Are they just poor experts? They have to be better than Tagliabracci--or is that the best they have?
 
Amazer,

You stated that you feel that I am dishonest. Please explain where I have been dishonest.
Your portrayal of Fulcanelli with regard to the Facebook links and Knox minors.


Do you honestly think that I believe Amanda is guilty and I am protecting her anyway?
No, i'm fairly confident that you really believe that Amanda is innocent. That you do this in the face of evidence to the contrary is not unusual. Lot's of people do this every day for a variety of issues.
 
The Innocent Man

Chris,
Does she indicate that the statement was read to her before she signed it. And did the translator give her an English version before she signed it?
Is this an unusual process that the police take someone's confession down and have them sign it?

RoseMontague,

What I know is that police sometimes make a stream of suggestions to a person's confession to make it fit the facts. This happened to one of the West Memphis 3, and it happened to Tommy Ward (see Chapter 5 in "The Innocent Man," by John Grisham). Tommy Ward's false confession was not recorded by the police.

halides1
 
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