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Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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Mary H said:
Hard to believe, but interviews that are conducted calmly and sanely, even with attorneys present, can lead to better information than interviews conducted in the ham-fisted way the Perugian police did it. If protocols are followed, and witnesses have rights, then the police protect themselves from later accusations of torture and brutality.

At least in countries where people are allowed to accuse the police of anything.

They may well protect themselves. However, it would have been absolutely useless to them. If they'd questioned him as a witness nothing he said could be used against him in court. So...what would have been the point again?

Secondly...you've all told us time and time again anything the police get from questioning someone should never be used against them (at least, that's the rule for Amanda and Raffaele), so again, what would have been the point?

Thirdly, once they'd done questioning him as a witness, he'd then be alerted to the police sniffing round him and free to destroy evidence or/and intimidate witnesses or/and flee Perugia or/and kill again...right? So again, the point of the exercise would have been 'what'?
 
Under caution? My dear man, what are you talking about? You appear to be rather unfortunately, stuck in Old Blighty. There is no 'under caution' in the Italian system.

Ugghhh - I'm using that phrase "under caution" as a convenient contraction of the phrase "in the presence of an attorney (if required), with the prior knowledge that anything said during the course of this interview could be used as evidence in a court of law".

Is that better? I'll stop using the 2-word phrase "under caution" and instead insert the 31-word phrase if you'd prefer though.....

PS, By the way, I've already politely asked people not to engage in lampooning or personalisations based on outmoded British stereotypes ("my dear man", "Old Blighty"). I find it insulting, patronising and totally unnecessary in the context of making an argument. It's clearly not meant in gentle jest either (not that this would excuse its employment in any case). For the last time, please stop doing it. Would it be acceptable to reply to a German poster with something along the lines of "Achtung! Vee haf vays of making you talk!"? I think not - and the principle is exactly the same.
 
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They may well protect themselves. However, it would have been absolutely useless to them. If they'd questioned him as a witness nothing he said could be used against him in court. So...what would have been the point again?

Everything Amanda said as a witness was used against her in court, regardless of the fact that it was later ruled inadmissible. How so, you ask? Because of the cozy relationship between the Perugian police and the press, that's how. Amanda's forced confession was in all the papers for everyone to read long before it was thrown out as evidence. The exact same thing could have been done with Patrick (if they had bothered to interview him in the first place, that is).

Secondly...you've all told us time and time again anything the police get from questioning someone should never be used against them (at least, that's the rule for Amanda and Raffaele), so again, what would have been the point?

What Amanda's supporters suggest as an ideal is hardly the way the police actually behaved. Don't apply our standards to your argument as if it can affect anything that happened or could have happened in the past.

Thirdly, once they'd done questioning him as a witness, he'd then be alerted to the police sniffing round him and free to destroy evidence or/and intimidate witnesses or/and flee Perugia or/and kill again...right? So again, the point of the exercise would have been 'what'?

One presumes that if they questioned him as a witness and found reason to arrest him, they would have done so. (You know how brilliant the Perugian police are; they can sniff out a liar at, what -- a millimeter away?)

If they found adequate evidence against him at their interview, they could have held him until the evidence was further investigated. Even if they would, by some fluke, have released him in spite of their suspicions, they would have watched him like hawks.
 
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PS, By the way, I've already politely asked people not to engage in lampooning or personalisations based on outmoded British stereotypes ("my dear man", "Old Blighty"). I find it insulting, patronising and totally unnecessary in the context of making an argument. It's clearly not meant in gentle jest either (not that this would excuse its employment in any case). For the last time, please stop doing it. Would it be acceptable to reply to a German poster with something along the lines of "Achtung! Vee haf vays of making you talk!"? I think not - and the principle is exactly the same.

No offense, LJ, but your comment reminded me of this amusing scene from "The Godfather:"

Jack Woltz:
"Johnny Fontane will never get that movie. I don't care how many dago, wop, guinea, greaseball goombas come out of the woodwork."
Tom Hagen: "I'm German-Irish."
Jack Woltz: "Well, let me tell you something, my kraut-mick friend. I'm gonna make so much trouble for you you won't know what hit you."
 
LondonJohn said:
Ugghhh - I'm using that phrase "under caution" as a convenient contraction of the phrase "in the presence of an attorney (if required), with the prior knowledge that anything said during the course of this interview could be used as evidence in a court of law"

Which translates to making him a suspect which in turn translates to arresting him. The Italian equivalent of 'under caution' is 'formal suspect'.
 
Which translates to making him a suspect which in turn translates to arresting him. The Italian equivalent of 'under caution' is 'formal suspect'.


Conveniently, however, in Perugia, you get the attorney only after you have incriminated yourself.
 
Mary H said:
Everything Amanda said as a witness was used against her in court, regardless of the fact that it was later ruled inadmissible. How so, you ask? Because of the cozy relationship between the Perugian police and the press, that's how. Amanda's forced confession was in all the papers for everyone to read long before it was thrown out as evidence. The exact same thing could have been done with Patrick (if they had bothered to interview him in the first place, that is).

Only because in the course of making her statements she committed a crime. It was that fact that let the statements in via the back door. Had she not committed a crime in the course of making them we'd have heard none of them in the trial. It's got absolutely nothing to do with the press, it is a matter of Italian law.

There was no confession, it was an accusation of another. It wasn't forced, nobody put a gun to her head.

It was in the papers because it had been accepted as evidence by two courts...the GIP and the GUP. They didn't get thrown out until months later and that was by the High Court and they only threw out the voluntary statement signed at 5:45, not the statement signed at 1:45. However, that all changed once again once she was formally charged with criminal slander by Judge Micheli in October 2008.

Mary H said:
What Amanda's supporters suggest as an ideal is hardly the way the police actually behaved. Don't apply our standards to your argument as if it can affect anything that happened or could have happened in the past.

What...your own standards suddenly don't apply when your argument is being criticised and a double standard is being pointed out? Hypocrisy much?

Mary H said:
One presumes that if they questioned him as a witness and found reason to arrest him, they would have done so. (You know how brilliant the Perugian police are; they can sniff out a liar at, what -- a millimeter away?)

And if they hadn't...what then? A wasted exercise. But in any case, they didn't need to question him to obtain reason to arrest him, they already had good reason given to them by Amanda Knox.

Watched him like hawks? Where would the manpower have come from for that? Who would have policed Perugia in the meantime? If they were so concerned about him to 'watch him like hawks' why not cut to the chase and arrest him so they could investigate him properly? Why run the risk that he could damage evidence or even kill someone else before they could intervene? Why run the risk of him giving them the slip to cause mischief or flee? Why bother doing any of this if they already had the evidence required to make an arrest? I'm sorry Mary, but you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
 
You're eating your words because you were proved to be mistaken. All you're doing now is restating that the Perugia police did the right thing at the right time as we had always explained to you was required by law. That it was also the right thing to do regardless of jurisdiction is simply icing on the cake. If you want to invent new methodologies for Italian law enforcement then that's your problem.

What you're also ignoring is that the lack of an immediately verifiable alibi, along with the pings near the cell tower covering Via Pergola, and the issues with the software in his phone, each combined to strongly suggest to the Perugia police that Amanda had not been lying and that they had the rapist-murderer in custody.

So you've acknowledged that the timing was not extraordinary, have invented procedures that don't exist in Italy, and have now been told why they could not immediately release Patrick too.

And all of this was due to the words of one person and one person only--Amanda Knox. You can sugar coat it, slide step around it, do the hokey-pokey this way and that, but you're stuck with the fact that an innocent man was nabbed, no procedures were violated, and that only Amanda Knox is responsible.

The courts agreed with us. Thank you for playing. Next.

You're walking a very narrow tightrope here with the tone of this post.

Where was i proved to be mistaken? What have I sugar-coated, or where have I done the "hokey-pokey" (sic)?

Additionally, your argument here is from an ex-post perspective. You've argued that my scenario wouldn't have made any difference in the event since Lumumba didn't in fact have an immediately-verifiable alibi. But the police didn't know that at the time they knocked on his door in the early morning of the 6th.

Of course you could argue (and I'm sure you will...) that the police also didn't know at 6am on the 6th whether or not they were dealing with a potentially dangerous rapist and murderer. I'd agree totally, and would completely agree with the need for police caution against someone whom they believed might be the killer of Meredith Kercher (although you and I differ on the extent to which that belief might be justified). They still didn't need to ARREST him, let alone with "maximum force" elements.

You say above: "All you're doing now is restating that the Perugia police did the right thing at the right time as we had always explained to you was required by law".

Firstly, stop using "we". You represent YOURSELF only. Others may share some (or even all) of your views, but you have no right to refer to a collective "we" in this context. The only acceptable time to use "we" is as a direct synonym for the more correct (but more arcane) personal pronoun "one" - e.g. "we can see that xyz happened". It shouldn't be used to denote a specific group of people within a forum environment like this.

Anyway, that aside, your statement above misrepresents me (it's deja vu all over again....). I haven't claimed that the Perugia police did the right thing, but I have conceded the point about the time, purely in order to remove the emotive issue of police leaving a murderer/rapist on the loose from the more important (in my eyes) argument over the method of his detention.

Furthermore, I'd argue that his arrest WASN'T required by law (Italian or otherwise). Being arrested is a serious blemish on one's character. In the UK at least, it remains on your record and can be used in many different ways in character assessments - although I freely admit that I don't currently know whether the situation is similar in Italy. And Lumumba was arrested NOT because of anything he'd said or done personally up to that point, but instead on the word of someone whom I'd generously describe as "unreliable". Oh, and a text message.

Another point to ponder: I believe I'm correct in saying that following Lumumba's dramatic "dawn-raid" arrest, he was placed in a cell at the Perugia police station with no food or water, and was only brought out to be informed of the evidence against him (and to be accorded an opportunity to speak in his own defence) at around 17.30 - some 11 hours after his arrest. This, if true, doesn't speak volumes of the police's intentions (or ability) to expedite the investigation of Lumumba, which - at the very least - they should have been doing as a matter of great urgency.

Of course, it's also indisputable that Lumumba was detained in custody for 14 days before being exonerated and released. I believe that his alibi witness (the Swiss professor) had been alerted to the situation by an Italian friend of his (not by the Perugia police) on or about the 7th-8th November. Incidentally, this would imply that the police had known of Lumumba's alibi in general terms on the 6th or 7th November (i.e. shortly after his arrest), in order for this information to be provided to the media on the 7th or 8th.

The professor flew to Perugia (seemingly of his own accord), and gave his first statement to the Perugia police on the 10th . It then apparently took the police a further 9 days or so to believe that the Swiss Professor was telling them the truth.

Bear in mind that AS SOON AS they could satisfy themselves that a) the professor was a credible witness, with no agenda or motivation for providing a false alibi (not difficult to prove, I'd suggest), and b) that he wasn't honestly mistaken in his recollection (and this might, generously, have taken a day or two to sort out - the pizza inconsistency etc), then they should have released Lumumba more-or-less immediately. So I'm puzzled as to why they couldn't have ended Lumumba's ordeal by, say, the 12th November as a maximum?

As a slight aside: how hard could it have been for the police to establish whether any Swiss universities had sent teacher/student parties to Perugia over the 1st November, even if they didn't know the professor's name or the exact university he came from? There are twelve major universities in Switzerland, and around a further 50 lesser universities or colleges of higher education. So a logical staring point would have been the 12 major institutions. And the professor in question did indeed work at one of these 12 - the University of Zurich (admittedly the last on an alphabetical list of 12!). In addition, the police could have applied a logical filter even to this list of 12, since Lumumba might very well have told them that the professor was a native German speaker (in fact, his name is Roman Mero, and he is Swiss-German). They could therefore have logically started by contacting those universities in German-speaking cantons - of which there are seven. Had they done such a trawl, I suggest it wouldn't have been hard (or taken long) to discover that the University of Zurich had indeed sent a delegation to Perugia on an exchange with students of the Magistrale school between 24th October and 2nd November 2007. And that one of the professors accompanying the students on that trip was Roman Mero.
 
There was no confession, it was an accusation of another. It wasn't forced, nobody put a gun to her head.

...

Watched him like hawks? Where would the manpower have come from for that? Who would have policed Perugia in the meantime? If they were so concerned about him to 'watch him like hawks' why not cut to the chase and arrest him so they could investigate him properly? Why run the risk that he could damage evidence or even kill someone else before they could intervene? Why run the risk of him giving them the slip to cause mischief or flee? Why bother doing any of this if they already had the evidence required to make an arrest? I'm sorry Mary, but you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

In relation to the first part: It appears that you're stating as your position the indisputable fact that AK's confession/accusation "wasn't forced, nobody put a gun to her head" (I assume you mean a metaphorical "gun" here, but if you do actually mean a firearm, please let me know). Is this a correct interpretation of your position?

In relation to the second excerpt from your post, are you suggesting that the Perugia police wouldn't have been able to assign - say - an 8-person surveillance team to keep track of Lumumba (in four shifts of two officers)? Would this have depleted the Perugia force to the extent that all other crime could carry on unabated? Or even if the Perugia force felt that they couldn't spare eight officers, could they not have requested assistance and/or manpower from either neighbouring units or from central police powers in Rome? After all, this was an exceptionally high-profile and important case.

With regard to what I've just written above, I actually agree with you that it would have been better (and more expeditious) for the police to bring Lumumba in immediately (but NOT via arrest, unless he'd refused to co-operate). But what I take issue with is your seemingly knee-jerk response that such surveillance wouldn't even have been feasible or possible. I believe that it would have been both feasible and possible. Also, why would he damage evidence if a) he hadn't already done so before 6am on the 6th, and b) he was still unaware that he was under suspicion? I agree though that he could very well have slipped through the police surveillance net and killed again (if he was indeed not only the killer of Meredith, but also a serial offender). This in itself would mitigate against a surveillance operation at that point in the investigation.
 
LondonJohn said:
Furthermore, I'd argue that his arrest WASN'T required by law (Italian or otherwise).

Yes it was. Three types of crime in Italy for which the police are compelled to arrest once they have evidence:

1. Mafia related crime

2. Terrorism or crime relating to national security

3. Violent sex crime (the sexual element implies a real and present danger of re-offending)

These are regarded as public safety issues
 
LondonJohn said:
In relation to the second excerpt from your post, are you suggesting that the Perugia police wouldn't have been able to assign - say - an 8-person surveillance team to keep track of Lumumba (in four shifts of two officers)?

Why?

Let's turn your argument around. Why arrest Rudy in Germany? Why not assign an 8 man surveillance team to him instead?

I fail to see or understand why Patrick should have been put under surveillance instead of arresting him...what is your argument for their doing so?

LondonJohn said:
With regard to what I've just written above, I actually agree with you that it would have been better (and more expeditious) for the police to bring Lumumba in immediately (but NOT via arrest, unless he'd refused to co-operate).

Why NOT under arrest?

LondonJohn said:
Also, why would he damage evidence if a) he hadn't already done so before 6am on the 6th, and b) he was still unaware that he was under suspicion?

Your argument is based on assumptions. Why should the police have made such assumptions and taken the risk?
 
They have never been audited? Are you sure? Cite?

The Rome crime lab that did the DNA tests in the Knox case is apparently audited about as frequently as Bernie MadoffWP. :rolleyes:

There are EU agencies that accredit and audit crime labs, but the Rome crime lab doesn't appear on any of their lists of accredited labs.
 
The Rome crime lab that did the DNA tests in the Knox case is apparently audited about as frequently as Bernie MadoffWP. :rolleyes:

There are EU agencies that accredit and audit crime labs, but the Rome crime lab doesn't appear on any of their lists of accredited labs.

This is all covered in the Massei Report.
 
two differences at minimum

Why?

Let's turn your argument around. Why arrest Rudy in Germany? Why not assign an 8 man surveillance team to him instead?

I fail to see or understand why Patrick should have been put under surveillance instead of arresting him...what is your argument for their doing so?

There was already forensic evidence against Mr. Guede at this point. In addition, he had fled the country. Neither was true of Mr. Lumumba.
 
There was already forensic evidence against Mr. Guede at this point. In addition, he had fled the country. Neither was true of Mr. Lumumba.

There was already a "witness", who said that PL was responsible.
At this point the police mb thought that both were involved
 
short response on DNA

My first post in this thread. Too many sub-conversations to keep track of what's going on.

Amanda supporters say the DNA was faked.

Am I right so far?

With respect to the knife DNA profile, I strongly suspect contamination. With respect to the bra clasp, tampering, contamination, and secondary or tertiary transfer of DNA prior to its being taken into evidence are all worthy of serious consideration, IMO.
 
There was already forensic evidence against Mr. Guede at this point. In addition, he had fled the country. Neither was true of Mr. Lumumba.

Forensic evidence is not a requirement for an arrest.

And I see, one must wait until after someone has fled the country before arresting them...that makes sense.
 
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