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Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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I don't believe Darkness Descending mentions the sirens. They may have honked their horn once or twice.
Hi RoseMontague,
I had read this link the other day that Bobthedonkey and TSIG posted:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Lumumba-reveals-framed-Merediths-murder.html

This part caught my eye about the police car sirens blazing, while on the way, I suppose, to taking Mr. Lumumba to jail.

"At 6.30am on Tuesday, November 6, the bell to his fourth-floor flat in the town buzzed insistently and a woman's voice outside demanded he opened the door. He had barely had time to do so when the woman, assisted by, Patrick estimates, 15 to 20 others, barged their way in.
"They were wearing normal clothes and carrying guns," he says. "I thought it must be some sort of armed gang about to kill me. I was terrified.
"They hit me over the head and yelled 'dirty black'. Then they put handcuffs on me and shoved me out of the door, as Aleksandra pulled Davide away, screaming."
He was greeted outside by a convoy of seven police cars, sirens blazing, and driven to Perugia's police station, where he was subjected to a ten-hour interrogation."

Even though Fulcanelli says that this article is a paid "personal interest story", I bet there is ALOT in it that rings true. If this newspaper embellished the story that Mr. Lumumba told, couldn't he have sued them for defamation?
Hmmm...
RWVBWL
 
I am talking about expert witnesses, specifically the ones called by the defense in the Kercher case. You can call them auditors if you want to. My understanding is they disputed almost every piece of forensic evidence obtained. The judges/jury decided to go with the opinions of the prosecution experts instead.

If you are saying the jury is not influenced to some degree by the quality and presentation of defense's forensic expert witnesses then we just do not agree on that point.

This wasn't about 'opinions', but about evidence and logic. Your apparent ideas that judges in Italy side with a particular expert because they prefer the look of them and therefore swallow their opinions really doesn't wash in the the context of the reality of the facts...for example...'X is clearly X because my favourite Expert in the trial said so' does not wash in the Judge's report and clearly you do not understand how this works. In the report, the judge has to provide an argument as to 'why' he believes a particular expert to be correct. That's not enough. He also has to write in detail the argument of the opposing experts and then provide a logical and rational argument of why they are incorrect. The report is that detailed. And, any step wrong in the judges reasoning on any point is grounds for the appeal. There is 'nothing' that is accepted lightly ('It's so because whatsisname said so so there!). Every single logical step has to be justified and after, the prosecution and every single lawyer for the defence and victims will go over every single minute point looking for anything they can challenge.

When you finally read the report, you'll see that it's 'exhaustive'. That does not mean all conclusions are correct or cannot be challenged. What it means, is that the reasoning cannot be waved off with simple remarks like 'Oh, he just liked that guy better'. When you see the report, those types of arguments become redundant...rather silly in fact.
 
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Huh? :confused:

So it would have been OK for them to get him at 6 am. Thanks for clearing that up. You've just wasted several minutes of everyone's time just to arrive at the same conclusion that everyone--incuding the Perugian authorities--already had.

Do you have anything of substance to add to the discussion or are all your entries going to be this endless circle of troll?

No.

My argument was clearly two-pronged. I removed the lesser prong of the argument, since it wasn't the part that I wanted to highlight. I did so in order to remove that from the debate, so that people could instead focus on my main point: that Lumumba should not have been ARRESTED on the morning of the 6th - at WHATEVER time.

I still believe that the police could and should have waited until 9am to knock on his door. But I'm prepared to concede this point (have you ever heard of the word "concede"?) so that people can move past the clearly emotive topic surrounding "police knowingly allowing a suspected rapist/murderer to flee or kill/rape again". Can you see why I made this concession now? It doesn't change the central plank of my argument, which is that Lumumba should have been first asked to immediately attend the station voluntarily for an interview under caution. Is it clear now?
 
LondonJohn said:
If Lumumba had gone voluntarily to the station at 6am to answer questions under caution (as in hindsight I believe he would have done)

Under caution? My dear man, what are you talking about? You appear to be rather unfortunately, stuck in Old Blighty. There is no 'under caution' in the Italian system.
 
LondonJohn said:
I said the police had no need to arrest Patrick. Can you spot the difference?

They had every need, not to mention a legal requirement. This was a brutal sex murder...not a parking ticket.
 
Folks, please. How many warnings does it take?

Everyone: please remember your membership agreement, and stop the incivility and personal attacks
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Professor Yaffle

Folks: this thread is once again generating a significant number of reports and complaints. Please stop the gratuitous insults and personalization, and stick to the subject. Remember your Membership Agreement, be civil and polite, and do not engage in name-calling and bickering.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL

Everyone, please remember your Membership Agreement. Be civil, do not engage in name-calling, and do not personalize your arguments.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL


Now, for the last time:

Abide by the Membership Agreement. Be civil and do not personalize your arguments. Further breaches are going to result in infractions and/or suspensions. Moreover, you risk this thread going on moderated status, and that is not pleasant for anyone.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL
 
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Hi RoseMontague,
I had read this link the other day that Bobthedonkey and TSIG posted:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Lumumba-reveals-framed-Merediths-murder.html

This part caught my eye about the police car sirens blazing, while on the way, I suppose, to taking Mr. Lumumba to jail.

"At 6.30am on Tuesday, November 6, the bell to his fourth-floor flat in the town buzzed insistently and a woman's voice outside demanded he opened the door. He had barely had time to do so when the woman, assisted by, Patrick estimates, 15 to 20 others, barged their way in.
"They were wearing normal clothes and carrying guns," he says. "I thought it must be some sort of armed gang about to kill me. I was terrified.
"They hit me over the head and yelled 'dirty black'. Then they put handcuffs on me and shoved me out of the door, as Aleksandra pulled Davide away, screaming."
He was greeted outside by a convoy of seven police cars, sirens blazing, and driven to Perugia's police station, where he was subjected to a ten-hour interrogation."

Even though Fulcanelli says that this article is a paid "personal interest story", I bet there is ALOT in it that rings true. If this newspaper embellished the story that Mr. Lumumba told, couldn't he have sued them for defamation?
Hmmm...
RWVBWL

Very true. Has Lumumba made any attempt to sue the Daily Mail Group for libel? After all, this article explicitly puts words into his mouth in which he accused the perugia police of racial and physical abuse. If he never said these words that are directly attributed to him in this article, I guarantee you two things: 1) He would want a formal retraction of this part of the article - not only to correct libellous inaccuracies in his reported speech, but also to protect him against potential slander suits from the Perugia police force; and 2) he could make an awful lot of money in a successful libel action against the Daily Mail Group.

I wonder if Fulcanelli or stilicho can inform us of the current status of Lumumba's legal action against the Daily Mail Group. I assume there's either been a contested libel action, or the suit has been settled out of court, or there's a case pending. After all, the statute of limitations for libel cases in UK courts against UK publications is 1 year (barring certain special circumstances). And this article was published on 25 November 2007......
 
What's in a name

Ermmmmm. apart from anything else, his surname was "Lumumba" and you suggest that the police/prosecutor might not have even guessed at his ethnic origin? I'm not suggesting that this influenced their decision-making, but I AM suggesting that they at least had a fairly good idea of his ethnicity. Plus, I understand he was fairly well-known around town, and in addition, police drink in bars quite often.....

I googled "John Smith", he looks just as the Perugia police "should" imagine Mr. Smith:

http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/troufs/Buffalo/images/pf025534.jpg
 
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Folks, please. How many warnings does it take?








Now, for the last time:

Abide by the Membership Agreement. Be civil and do not personalize your arguments. Further breaches are going to be met with infractions and/or suspensions. Moreover, you risk this thread going on moderated status, and that is not pleasant for anyone.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL

This is aimed at a very specific and small group of posters, by the way. I look forward to us ALL sticking to reasoned (and reasonable) arguments from now on.....
 
At least this is a counter-argument, rather than a personal attack (well, almost).
Disagreeing with your argument is not a personal attack... seriously.

The reason for the "09.30" is that I argued that 6am was an unnecessarily early hour to have pulled Lumumba out of his house. And it would also have been an unnecessarily early hour even to have requested his presence for an interview under caution. The reason why police forces all over the world conduct so-called dawn raids is so that suspects are roused from sleep and are, as a result, less likely to either think clearly or physically resist.
If I were to arrest a suspected rapist/murderer I'd want him confused and less likely to resist arrest too when I pick him up.

So, for the sake of argument, I suggested that 9am would have been an appropriate time to have knocked on his door. This was somewhat arbitrary, but indicative of a more correct approach in my view.
The correct view would have been that they made the arrest once they have the paperwork/approvals in place (which the police did) with perhaps the secondary consideration of the police offers safety. So 6am sounds perfectly fine to me.

A quick check of Lumumba's background would have revealed that he owned and ran a bar in town - so he most likely wouldn't have been leaving the house at 08.00 to travel to a 9-to-5 job. The "09.30" flows from that - I assumed that if the knock on the door took place at 09.00, Lumumba could have dressed, called an attorney and accomanied the police back to the station in the ensuing half an hour. Hence, he'd be sitting in the station by 09.30. Alternatively, he'd have refused to go voluntarily, at which point the police would have arrested him there and then (justifiably now, in my view), and taken him under arrest to the station by 09.30.
The problem is if Patrick had refused to voluntarily come to the station. You have then created a situation where a lot of things can go wrong. Better, faster and safer for anyone involved to pick Patrick up the way they did.

Note that while I do think that Lumumba shouldn't have been woken at 6am, the rest of my argument still stands even if action HAD been taken at such an immediate rate. In other words, it would have still been appropriate in my view (but less so than my preferred scenario) for the police to knock on Lumumba's door at 6am, and ask him to accompany then to the station immediately for an interview under caution. If he'd refused, then again they could have arrested him on his doorstep. This scenario eliminates the somewhat emotive argument about "leaving a murdering rapist on the streets" - which in any case is a risk that I've also argued was incredibly small between the hours of 6am and 9am on that morning.
First of all, you are assuming that it would have been Patrick at the door.
Second, you are assuming that Patrick would have just stood around passively while the police arrest him.
Given the fact that Patrick was in fact innocent of the crime i'ts quite likely that the scenario would have played out like you assume but you can only make that assumption with the benefit of hindsight.

In reality, without the benefit of hindsight, the police work that way to minimize the risk to the suspect, other people in close proximity to the suspect and last but not least, to the police officers themselves.
 
This wasn't about 'opinions', but about evidence and logic. Your apparent ideas that judges in Italy side with a particular expert because they prefer the look of them and therefore swallow their opinions really doesn't wash in the the context of the reality of the facts...for example...'X is clearly X because my favourite Expert in the trial said so' does not wash in the Judge's report and clearly you do not understand how this works. In the report, the judge has to provide an argument as to 'why' he believes a particular expert to be correct. That's not enough. He also has to write in detail the argument of the opposing experts and then provide a logical and rational argument of why they are incorrect. The report is that detailed. And, any step wrong in the judges reasoning on any point is grounds for the appeal. There is 'nothing' that is accepted lightly ('It's so because whatsisname said so so there!). Every single logical step has to be justified and after, the prosecution and every single lawyer for the defence and victims will go over every single minute point looking for anything they can challenge.

When you finally read the report, you'll see that it's 'exhaustive'. That does not mean all conclusions are correct or cannot be challenged. What it means, is that the reasoning cannot be waved off with simple remarks like 'Oh, he just liked that guy better'. When you see the report, those types of arguments become redundant...rather silly in fact.

Actually, I am talking about reasonable doubt here. The defense attempted to discredit almost all of the forensic evidence by showing poor handling and gathering of evidence and unusual testing procedures. That did not sway this jury, but better experts may have had better success. That is just my opinion of course, which is why I have asked several posters on the innocent side of things what they thought of the defense team, including the experts.

It is clear that you view the DNA evidence without any doubt whatsoever. That is not the case with me.
 
Hi RoseMontague,
I had read this link the other day that Bobthedonkey and TSIG posted:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Lumumba-reveals-framed-Merediths-murder.html

This part caught my eye about the police car sirens blazing, while on the way, I suppose, to taking Mr. Lumumba to jail.

"At 6.30am on Tuesday, November 6, the bell to his fourth-floor flat in the town buzzed insistently and a woman's voice outside demanded he opened the door. He had barely had time to do so when the woman, assisted by, Patrick estimates, 15 to 20 others, barged their way in.
"They were wearing normal clothes and carrying guns," he says. "I thought it must be some sort of armed gang about to kill me. I was terrified.
"They hit me over the head and yelled 'dirty black'. Then they put handcuffs on me and shoved me out of the door, as Aleksandra pulled Davide away, screaming."
He was greeted outside by a convoy of seven police cars, sirens blazing, and driven to Perugia's police station, where he was subjected to a ten-hour interrogation."

Even though Fulcanelli says that this article is a paid "personal interest story", I bet there is ALOT in it that rings true. If this newspaper embellished the story that Mr. Lumumba told, couldn't he have sued them for defamation?
Hmmm...
RWVBWL

I was commenting on the Darkness Descending quote which does not include the sirens through town, if I remember it correctly. This one said he was greeted by police cars with sirens on, but it is not clear if they kept them on as he was paraded through town.
 
RoseMontague said:
Actually, I am talking about reasonable doubt here.

Reasonable doubt as to what...the verdict of guilty or not guilty? Reasonable doubt applies to that for sure, but to that only...not to each individual piece of evidence though...if that is how you are thinking. I feel you have a crucial misunderstanding of legal process here.
 
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I was commenting on the Darkness Descending quote which does not include the sirens through town, if I remember it correctly. This one said he was greeted by police cars with sirens on, but it is not clear if they kept them on as he was paraded through town.
Hi RoseMontague,
I agree with what your post,
that was why I wrote "I suppose" in my own...
(This part caught my eye about the police car sirens blazing, while on the way, I suppose, to taking Mr. Lumumba to jail.)
Most likely, it was lights blazing and sirens blaring as he went to the police station, but who knows?
RWVBWL

ps-by the way, nice avatar...
 
RoseMontague said:
It is clear that you view the DNA evidence without any doubt whatsoever. That is not the case with me.

I believe DNA evidence to be valid unless/until it is shown to be invalid, with proof, strong evidence or logical argument. I consider that to be reasonable. To date, I've seen none of the latter either in the court room, or on this forum.
 
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I googled "John Smith", he looks just as the Perugia police "should" imagine Mr. Smith:

http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/troufs/Buffalo/images/pf025534.jpg

That's an unfair comparison. I think that if, for example, in London, Paris, Oslo or Perugia, you asked 100 people who had at least a smattering of world views (let's say for example, 100 people who were educated to "graduating high-school" standard - or "A" level standard in the UK equivalent) what the ethnic origin of an adult man with the surname "Lumumba" was, I think that over 90 would say that he was of African origin. The name has no roots or similar examples anywhere in European etymology.

Those who had a more sophisticated knowledge of world politics and history might of course remember that Patrick's very-near-namesake, Patrice Lumumba, was the first Prime Minister of the Republic of Congo, who was assassinated in 1961 in a dirty little murder that possibly involved the CIA and Belgian intelligence. Indeed, I think I'm right in saying that Patrick Lumumba claimed at some point to be a relative of Patrice Lumumba.

Incidentally, my "100 person" argument above specifically mentioned a MAN named Lumumba. This qualifier is important, since it would be far less logical (and in fact possibly even indicative of some form of racial bias) to assume that a WOMAN called Lumumba was of African ethnic origin. This is, of course, because it's perfectly likely for a Caucasian, Asian, Hispanic, American Indian (etc) woman to marry a man of African origin, and to take his name.

The only other point mitigating against a rational racial identification from that name is if the person in question was the descendant of an unbroken paternal line of Lumumbas, all of whom had borne children with non-African women. In other words, the Lumumba in question might have had a father of African ethnicity named Lumumba, and a white (for the sake of argument) mother, and would therefore have been of mixed race while preserving the Lumumba surname. Or, in a more extreme example, the Lumumba in question might have preserved his name via his great-grandfather on his grandfather's and father's side, but all the females in this area of the family tree had been white. If this were the case, our Lumumba would be only 1/8 African by ethnicity, and 7/8 Caucasian.

But the above examples, I'd argue, would carry less weight in Italy. Only 0.44% of the Italian population were immigrants from sub-Saharan Africa as of the Jan 2009 census. And most of these were first-generation immigrants. So there had not yet been much of an opportunity for males of African origin to couple with Caucasian or other ethnic origin) women, and to have mixed-race children who'd grown to become adults. Although, interestingly (but irrelevantly to this argument), Patrick himself had married a Caucasian women, and together they'd had a mixed-race child who presumably bore the surname Lumumba. The key word here, of course, is "child".

Sorry to go to the "n"th degree here! But, in the current climate, I'm trying to close off all the "AHHHH! But you missed this! What if...?" responses. So I'm probably saving myself (and the forum) time in the long run...........
 
I believe DNA evidence to be valid unless/until it is shown to be invalid, with proof, strong evidence or logical argument. I consider that to be reasonable. To date, I've seen none of the latter either in the court room, or on this forum.

I believe there is reasonable doubt about the DNA evidence, however I remain convinced that Amanda and Raffaele are hiding something based on the other evidence, including circumstantial evidence. If I were forced to a jury vote at this point, I would be saying not guilty.
 
They had every need, not to mention a legal requirement. This was a brutal sex murder...not a parking ticket.

But the severity of the crime does not determine whether or not Lumumba should have automatically been arrested in this circumstance. The police could - and should in my view - have accorded Lumumba the opportunity to assist them voluntarily. They had never spoken with him at any level previously about this crime. All they had was AK's accusation and the text message. HE SHOULD have been given the opportunity a) to cooperate, and b) to provide an answer all relevant questions without having been placed under arrest (much less being dragged out of his house in front of his family). If he' refused to accompany the police, he could have been arrested on the spot. And if he'd tried to resist arrest in any way, backup could have been there in five minutes and they'd have been perfectly justified in pinning him to the ground and slapping on arm restraints.

A lot of these sorts of posts seem to be suggesting that I advocated some sort of situation whereby Lumumba wasn't brought immediately to the police station. If we take out the whole "6am vs 9am" issue ( I believe that the police could safely have waited until 9am, but am prepared to go with 6am), then I'm absolutely arguing that Lumumba should have been in a police car on his way to the station by 06.15 that morning, arriving at the station by 06.30. But not in handcuffs (unless he'd ended up being arrested for non-compliance). And once he was in the station (assuming he hadn't already been arrested for non-compliance), he could and should have been arrested and placed in custody as soon as he either started telling porkies or further evidence turned up. But not before.

One other point: the police at that time (06.00) had NO IDEA WHATSOEVER whether Lumumba had a cast-iron and immediately-verifiable alibi. They never even gave him the opportunity to offer them one before slapping on the handcuffs. What if - hypothetically - they'd got to the station after the famous "dawn raid" arrest, and their first question had been "Where were you on the evening/night of the 1st November?". What if Lumumba's reply was something like "My child was rushed to hospital at 6pm on the 1st. I went to work in my bar but I left the bar at 8.45pm (it was very quiet), and went straight to the hospital to meet up with my wife and child. The doctors (Doctor X, Doctor Y and Doctor Z) treating my child saw me and talked with me at many various times from 21.00 to 03.00 - at which point my wife and I returned home."

If he HAD said something like that, it would have taken a matter of an hour maximum to check. IF it had been verified, they would have had to release Lumumba by lunchtime on the 6th, having dragged him out of his house merely hours before.

Now of course, what I've written above is conjecture and invented, and it didn't happen (although Lumumba's actual alibi turned out to be just as watertight, but - unfortunately for him - took longer to establish). It's merely meant to illustrate that the police had no idea what his alibi might or might not be - because they hadn't asked him. And they could have asked him without arresting him, while at the same time protecting the citizens of Perugia.
 
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