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Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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I have nothing against the Italians or the Germans. We are talking about a group of individuals who happen to be Italian. If a similar group of individuals in a different country had behaved as the court in Perugia has, I would criticize them, too -- for their actions, not their ethnicity.

A group of individuals that 'happen' to be Italian, which you have gone out of your way to point out that their home country was fascist 'once...ago'. If they just 'happened' to be Italian, nobody would give a damn what their country was in the past. It's 'you' making an issue out of 'that'...so for you, they don't just 'happen' to be Italian, rather your gripe is that it's actually 'Italy' and not America trying the case. Which in fact, is lucky for you and especially lucky for Amanda...the US system is all about 'revenge'.
 
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They are selling the interview.

That's not evidence, that's your impression.

It seems to me, you're not only concerned about defending Amanda's case in regard to the evidence, but also her and her family's PR. I'm wondering why that is.

Because one of the keys to assuring the correct verdict in the appeal is to expose the prosecution to the light of public scrutiny.
 
I have nothing against the Italians or the Germans. We are talking about a group of individuals who happen to be Italian. If a similar group of individuals in a different country had behaved as the court in Perugia has, I would criticize them, too -- for their actions, not their ethnicity.

A Fascist or any kind of government doesn't rise to power in a population that is not tolerant of it in some way, usually culturally.

You might as well be accusing me of making up reports that Arab countries oppress women; that's how valid your position is.

What evidence do you have that the Court has acted in a "Fascist manner"?

So far, all you have done is claim that a single individual - Mignini - was not right to push a slander suit against Knox et al for their campaign against him. We shall see, Mary, how that suit plays out in the Courts, whether it really is slander (here's a hint: it is). Do you believe slander should be permitted to be used against an attorney as a strategy for winning a court case?

(btw, we call this an "ad hominem" fallacy)
 
That's not evidence, that's your impression.



Because one of the keys to assuring the correct verdict in the appeal is to expose the prosecution to the light of public scrutiny.

Mary...you're just making yourself look ridiculous now.
 
A group of individuals that 'happen' to be Italian, which you have gone out of your way to point out that their home country was fascist 'once...ago'. If they just 'happened' to be Italian, nobody would give a damn what their country was in the past. It's 'you' making an issue out of 'that'...so for you, they don't just 'happen' to be Italian, rather your gripe is that it's actually 'Italy' and not America trying the case. Which in fact, is lucky for you and especially lucky for Amanda...the US system is all about 'revenge'.


If the group's attitudes were affected by their cultural or political history (and I don't know how anyone can claim they're not), then it is appropriate to keep it in mind. As in the example I gave to Bob, if this case were being tried in Saudi Arabia, then we would certainly examine the cultural attitudes of that country to explain what we see as inconsistencies or errors.
 
A Fascist or any kind of government doesn't rise to power in a population that is not tolerant of it in some way, usually culturally.

You might as well be accusing me of making up reports that Arab countries oppress women; that's how valid your position is.

Like with certain Germans? "My people killed your people"..."The Nazi within"..like that you mean?
 
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That's not evidence, that's your impression.


No, Mary. That's fact, not an impression. The Knox/Mellas family will receive hundreds of thousands of dollars in exchange for an interview - that is selling the interview. It's no more cut and dry than when Subway receives a $5 bill (plus tax, of course) from me in exchange for a footlong. Subway has sold me a footlong, just as the Knox/Mellas family is selling the interview.


Because one of the keys to assuring the correct verdict in the appeal is to expose the prosecution to the light of public scrutiny.
There is a difference between "exposed to the light of public scrutiny" and "slandered." Do you believe slander against an Attorney should be allowed as a strategy for winning a court case? (again, this is an Ad Hominem fallacy)
 
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If the group's attitudes were affected by their cultural or political history (and I don't know how anyone can claim they're not), then it is appropriate to keep it in mind. As in the example I gave to Bob, if this case were being tried in Saudi Arabia, then we would certainly examine the cultural attitudes of that country to explain what we see as inconsistencies or errors.

Do you have any evidence they are fascists? Have they told any fascist jokes for example, like...oh..."My people killed your people"? Any evidence like that?
 
You teach history but you deny that a political ethos is passed from generation to generation? You need to get a little perspective. Well, actually, a lot.

Again, please provide EVIDENCE that Italy's fascist past has influenced the outcome of this particular case. If your claim is still that Italy has corrupt officials and suppression of free speech, well then fine. I can provide many examples of that happening in other countries (including the U.S.) where there was never a fascist government.
 
If the group's attitudes were affected by their cultural or political history (and I don't know how anyone can claim they're not), then it is appropriate to keep it in mind. As in the example I gave to Bob, if this case were being tried in Saudi Arabia, then we would certainly examine the cultural attitudes of that country to explain what we see as inconsistencies or errors.

There's a tad bit of a difference between a Political Culture that is occurring today (you know, the Saudi Arabia/women bit) and a Political Culture that occurred over 60 years ago.

Are you trying to insinuate that the majority of people in the US are still in favor of Jim Crow laws? (that, btw, would be a valid comparison)
 
Well, things DO seem to have deteriorated again somewhat since I breezed out this morning for a nice lunch with my Mother, followed by the unexpected pleasure of watching England finally managing to win a cricket tournament - albeit in the most bastardised and over-razzmatazzy (have I just invented a new word?) form of the game.

Anyhow, since Italy's fascist past seems to have stirred up a whole lot of invective, I thought I'd put things into a bit of context as I see them - and I apologise in advance for the tedious history lesson, but I think it's very relevant for context):

Firstly, I have to say that I think Mary H was wrong and misplaced in gratuitously invoking Italy's past history. HOWEVER, it happens to actually have an amount of relevance, but not, I suspect, in a way in which Mary H intended.

Second, for background, many people might not be aware that Italy as we know it today has only really existed since the mid-19th century, making it a much "younger" country than the USA, for example. Many people imagine that Italy has existed as a more-or-less single entity since Roman times, but this is far from true. From shortly after the Roman era, right up to the 1850s, what we now call Italy was a separate collection of independent kingdoms and city-states, each with its own laws, governments, armies, taxes etc. The states often warred, and to this day many inhabitants of the former northern states (e.g. Milan, Savoy, Venice, Florence) harbour real residual resentment and animosity against occupants of the former Southern states (Naples, Sicily, Papal).

In the 1860s, Italy unified to become a monarchy - mainly to guarantee strength through size. The unification process was extremely difficult, but it managed to preserve, allowing Italy to build an empire and achieve economic growth throughout the latter part of the 19th century. However, Italy suffered hugely from the first world war (despite being part of the winning side), leading to political instability that set the scene for Mussolini to take power and establish a fascist dictatorship. This lasted until the end of WW2 (by which time Mussolini had been summarily executed), and the monarchy was superseded by the Italian republic in 1946.

Now, the reason that this is important is that the current Italian criminal legal system is based on the criminal code introduced in 1930. This code was drafted under Mussolini, at a time when he'd transformed the country into a dictatorship and removed many of the separations between the executive and judiciary branches. The criminal code as written in 1930 contained a great deal of legislation and procedure that would be regarded today as "outmoded" at best, and "authoritarian and indefensible" at worst. Most, if not all, of these areas of the code have been modified over the years.

Why is this important? Well, it's important because of the word "modified". Legal systems tend to be altered or modified in a slow, and somewhat reactionary, way. The main reason for this is that those who make and those who apply laws are usually reluctant to change those laws or procedures, since it implies that the previous laws/procedures were incorrect or unjust. In other words, any change is often viewed as an implicit criticism of the status quo, rather than a necessary improvement.

For example, the 1930 Italian criminal code, written under a fascist state, decreed that defence counsels were denied access to ALL judicial acts of investigation (i.e. pre-trial). This situation prevailed until 1955, when a slow system of reform started. By the mid-1960s, defence counsels were allowed access to interrogations of suspects, judicial reviews in courts, and searches of properties or suspects. In the same way, the 1930 code allowed for almost indefinite pre-trial detention. This has been modified frequently, but even today the maximum allowed period of pre-trial detention for serious crimes (including murder) is six years.

The point about all this is as follows: Even though the Italian legal code has been frequently modified from the 1930 code on which it's based, the "starting point" for all modifications was a code written to satisfy a fascist dictator. It appears evident that the level of reform of the code has reflected an unwillingness to make wholesale, sweeping changes to the original code - but rather to engage in smaller incremental changes. This means that the legal code that has resulted as of the present day still contains many of the vestiges and stains of the original 1930s code. To take but one example, the 6-year detention without trial is legally abhorrent in pretty much every other democratic judicial system. Interestingly, the most vehement (and justified) criticism of US government so-called "prisoner of war" procedures at Guantanamo was over the lengthy pre-trial detention of the suspects, most of whom had been interred there for far less than six years at the time of the controversy over their detention.

By the way, I'm not implying here any particular or unique criticism of Italian legislators. History shows that lawmakers all over the world have been similarly reluctant to change the status quo. Here in the UK, it took way too many years for homosexuality to be legalised, and even then the age of gay consent was left higher than the age of straight consent for many years more. And UK lawmakers will soon have to change a manifestly unfair part of UK legal code, whereby a small number of particularly notorious criminals (usually serial or child killers) are given a sentence tariff that only gives the Home Secretary of the day (a government minister) the decision on if and when they should be released. This is a clear breach of the important principle of separation of the executive and judicial branches, and will lead to an embarrassing process of re-sentencing and new legislation when it's successfully challenged in Europe pretty soon (my opinion only(!), but most observers think that's how it will go).

So, in summary (and if anyone's still reading this!!), the criminal code that exists in Italy today is the product of modifications of a code written in 1930s fascist Italy. That fact helps to explain the seeming anomalies in the Italian legal system, and clarifies any potential misconceptions that Italian law has been refined and improved since the majesty of Roman times. I'm absolutely NOT saying that the Italian legal system is intrinsically wrong or unjust. However I think that no system of law (Italian, US, Canadian, UK, Aboriginal, Zimbabwean) is inviolate or un-improvable, and that each of them - to a greater or lesser extent - has its flaws.

Sorry again for this ridiculously long post - I thought you might all appreciate a bedtime story though (unless you're in North American time zones, in which case consider it as one of those many supplements to the enormous Sunday newspaper...)
 
What evidence do you have that the Court has acted in a "Fascist manner"?

The apparent fear of expression by the defense lawyers and other professionals who are in contact with Amanda raises my suspicions.

So far, all you have done is claim that a single individual - Mignini - was not right to push a slander suit against Knox et al for their campaign against him. We shall see, Mary, how that suit plays out in the Courts, whether it really is slander (here's a hint: it is). Do you believe slander should be permitted to be used against an attorney as a strategy for winning a court case?

You sound like Manuela Comodi, who conducted an investigation of Amanda's claims by not investigating them. The idea that Amanda would make up being cuffed on the head twice is absurd.

If everyone in the United States who cries "police brutality" were sued for slander by the police, there would never be any court time available for legitimate cases.
 
No, Mary. That's fact, not an impression. The Knox/Mellas family will receive hundreds of thousands of dollars in exchange for an interview - that is selling the interview. It's no more cut and dry than when Subway receives a $5 bill (plus tax, of course) from me in exchange for a footlong. Subway has sold me a footlong, just as the Knox/Mellas family is selling the interview.


There is a difference between "exposed to the light of public scrutiny" and "slanderized." Do you believe slander against an Attorney should be allowed as a strategy for winning a court case? (again, this is an Ad Hominem fallacy)

Slanderize?
 
If the group's attitudes were affected by their cultural or political history (and I don't know how anyone can claim they're not), then it is appropriate to keep it in mind. As in the example I gave to Bob, if this case were being tried in Saudi Arabia, then we would certainly examine the cultural attitudes of that country to explain what we see as inconsistencies or errors.

There is a HUGE difference between politics in Saudi Arabia today and politics in Italy in the 1920s and 1930s.

Try again.
 
The apparent fear of expression by the defense lawyers and other professionals who are in contact with Amanda raises my suspicions.



You sound like Manuela Comodi, who conducted an investigation of Amanda's claims by not investigating them. The idea that Amanda would make up being cuffed on the head twice is absurd.

If everyone in the United States who cries "police brutality" were sued for slander by the police, there would never be any court time available for legitimate cases.

It's not a 'fear of expression', it's about being professional lawyers and not saying anything to damage their client and you'll find lawyers the world over the same (if they know their job). It's a pity Amanda's family and PR scabs can't listen to them for a change.
 
There's a tad bit of a difference between a Political Culture that is occurring today (you know, the Saudi Arabia/women bit) and a Political Culture that occurred over 60 years ago.

Are you trying to insinuate that the majority of people in the US are still in favor of Jim Crow laws? (that, btw, would be a valid comparison)


Are you joking? You are essentially claiming that once a political regime changes, the thinking and behavior of everyone in the country changes.

I am not denying that a citizenship can't change, but it usually happens -- as you imply -- by way of laws, not by the culture of the people themselves.

No, most people are not in favor of Jim Crow laws, but racism is alive and well in the United Staes, as the guilters love to point out. Slavery might even be alive if lawmakers had not stopped it, thus affecting cultural attitudes, which still have not changed completely even though it has been well over a hundred years.

When historians make observations about a culture, they don't look at how it changed every 50 or 60 years -- they observe what was constant for hundreds of years.
 
No, Mary. That's fact, not an impression. The Knox/Mellas family will receive hundreds of thousands of dollars in exchange for an interview - that is selling the interview. It's no more cut and dry than when Subway receives a $5 bill (plus tax, of course) from me in exchange for a footlong. Subway has sold me a footlong, just as the Knox/Mellas family is selling the interview.

I still see no evidence for that claim.
 
Slanderize?

As an aside, this made me smile as it somehow reminded me of a sketch show series in the UK called "A Bit of Fry and Laurie" - featuring Stephen Fry (an awesome wit, actor, presenter, raconteur and pretty much "national treasure", who specialised in playing slightly aloof upper-middle class characters who often engaged in amusing wordplays) and Hugh Laurie (who most Americans will now know better as "House").

Anyway, the sketch in question starts with Laurie walking over to Fry, who's gyrating and waving his hands around in a ludicrous manner. Laurie says: What are you doing there, Stephen?", and Fry answers: "It's something I like to call "Dancercise"". ""Dancercise?!"" says Laurie. "Yes", says Fry, "It's a rather clever combination of the word "Dance"......and the word "Circumcise"".
 
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