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Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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Mary_H said:
Oh, I see, you're splitting hairs.
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How's that splitting hairs? You declared she was tested for HIV by the police, all with the purpose of insinuating they deliberately lied to her in telling her she was positive, simply to torture her, show her in a bad light and to trick her into revealing her previous sexual encounters. That's what you were driving at. My response made it clear all these insinuation are so much bunk. I am offering clarity, while meanwhile you are trying your best to dishonestly represent the case and twist it into something to match your agenda, to present a lie.

The truth is not splitting hairs.
 
Mary_H said:
This is not so much an opportunity to judge and disapprove of one side or the other as it is to observe a genuine clash of cultures. Apparently it is just as difficult for Chris Mellas to overcome the sense that he has the right to speak freely as it is for the Italian lawyers to overcome the sense that they do not.

And just because Barbie Nadeau said the photos were a PR disaster doesn't make it so.
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Clash of cultures? It's willfull interference with justice and legal process. And I don't care how difficult it is for Chris Mellas to shut up, that isn't the point. The point is he's a bloody liability.
 
Fulcanelli said:
How's that splitting hairs? You declared she was tested for HIV by the police, all with the purpose of insinuating they deliberately lied to her in telling her she was positive, simply to torture her, show her in a bad light and to trick her into revealing her previous sexual encounters. That's what you were driving at. My response made it clear all these insinuation are so much bunk. I am offering clarity, while meanwhile you are trying your best to dishonestly represent the case and twist it into something to match your agenda, to present a lie.

The truth is not splitting hairs.
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It is hardly dishonest to suggest the police conducted the tests if that was my belief. I will accept that the prison and its doctor, rather than the police, were responsibe for conducting the tests, although I find it highly unlikely you will find many people who don't make a connection between police and prisons.

You have no more evidence that the insinuations are so much bunk than I have solid evidence that they are not. Given the pattern of trickery and intimidation used by her captors in general, it is natural to come to the conclusion that this was just one more stunt they used to try to get a confession out of Amanda. One false positive is unlikely; two are EXTREMELY unlikely.

It is also unlikely the doctor would disrespect his patient or put his career at risk by violating the rules of the World Health Organzation with regard to administering HIV tests. I can just see the police or the prosecustion saying to him, "It's okay, don"t worry about it, we'll take care of everything."

Tell me, do you think Amanda got the counseling that is recommendede for HIV-positive patients?

Human rights
The UNAIDS/WHO policy statement on HIV Testing states that conditions under which people undergo HIV testing must be anchored in a human rights approach that pays due respect to ethical principles.[5] According to these principles, the conduct of HIV testing of individuals must be

Confidential;
Accompanied by counseling (for those who test positive);
Conducted with the informed consent of the person being tested.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV_test
 
Mary H said:
And just because Barbie Nadeau said the photos were a PR disaster doesn't make it so.
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You think it was a PR triumph?

It's people who think just like you and and have the same 'world view' that are exactly the sort of people Ghirga was talking about and that have made Amanda's situation so much worse.

And incidentally, it wasn't only Nadeau critical of the posing outside the cottage but also Nick Pisa and various blogers...including even Frank Sfarzo and he's on the team.
 
Mary H said:
It is hardly dishonest to suggest the police conducted the tests if that was my belief. I will accept that the prison and its doctor, rather than the police, were responsibe for conducting the tests, although I find it highly unlikely you will find many people who don't make a connection between police and prisons.

You have no more evidence that the insinuations are so much bunk than I have solid evidence that they are not. Given the pattern of trickery and intimidation used by her captors in general, it is natural to come to the conclusion that this was just one more stunt they used to try to get a confession out of Amanda. One false positive is unlikely; two are EXTREMELY unlikely.
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If it's your belief that the prison service and the police are one and the same, then you're just plain naive (and assuming others are equally naive as you is just you projecting I'm afraid - I think the moon is made of cheese, so most other people do). And if you are naive, perhaps a little more humility in your assertions would be wise.
 
Fulcanelli said:
You think it was a PR triumph?

It's people who think just like you and and have the same 'world view' that are exactly the sort of people Ghirga was talking about and that have made Amanda's situation so much worse.

And incidentally, it wasn't only Nadeau critical of the posing outside the cottage but also Nick Pisa and various blogers...including even Frank Sfarzo and he's on the team.
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Bloggers disapproved? What a shock.

It wasn't a PR disaster or a triumph. I know it's hard for the guilters to believe, but there actually is a large number of people in the world whose first reaction to everything is not a value judgment. If I had seen those pictures on my own without the help of the various editorial comments, I wouldn't have thought twice about them.

As for Americans making Amanda's situation worse, well, as I said before, it is very hard to overcome one's cultural upbringing. Basically, you are suggesting that Amanda's supporters toe the line and behave deferentially toward people we perceive as extremely immature and unethical. To do so would involve playing a complex game, the rules of which we would constantly have to be tutored in and reminded of.

We would have to keep in mind that we are never allowed to criticize the prosecutors, police or investigators. As you wrote, "Let's take the matter of Amanda supposedly being hit during questioning. Her lawyers went to great pains to state to the press that they never said she was hit." I have a feeling the prison doctors, psychologists, chaplains, guards and so on who have crossed paths with Amanda and Raffaele in prison have gone to similar great pains not to betray their feelings about the two defendants, lest they face slander suits themselves.

Even if such an elaborate game -- a strategy, if you will -- were possible, and everybody on Amanda's team was willing to pull it off, we know there is still no guarantee that Mignini and his pals would respond predictably. It very easily could get to a point where he stops feeling threatened and starts feeling respected, but then he goes ahead and acts arbitrarily and capriciously anyway.

Michael Heavey approached the Italian Court very respectfully -- where did it get him?

The fact that Italy is only a generation or two removed from a Fascist regime should not require that we have to goose-step in order to communicate with them.
 
Fulcanelli said:
You think it was a PR triumph?

It's people who think just like you and and have the same 'world view' that are exactly the sort of people Ghirga was talking about and that have made Amanda's situation so much worse.
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How have they made her situation worse?
 
Mary H said:
It wasn't a PR disaster or a triumph. I know it's hard for the guilters to believe, but there actually is a large number of people in the world whose first reaction to everything is not a value judgment. If I had seen those pictures on my own without the help of the various editorial comments, I wouldn't have thought twice about them.
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Again, you show your naivety.

Mary H said:
As for Americans making Amanda's situation worse, well, as I said before, it is very hard to overcome one's cultural upbringing. Basically, you are suggesting that Amanda's supporters toe the line and behave deferentially toward people we perceive as extremely immature and unethical. To do so would involve playing a complex game, the rules of which we would constantly have to be tutored in and reminded of.
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It sounds like you are more concerned with making excuses then admitting fault...'we can't help it, it's how we are'. Making mistakes can be forgiven, but not learning by them and refusing to heed warnings cannot. That is foolish arrogance. And I will also add, that many Americans would be quite insulted that you've tried to tar them all with the same brush.

Mary H said:
We would have to keep in mind that we are never allowed to criticize the prosecutors, police or investigators. As you wrote, "Let's take the matter of Amanda supposedly being hit during questioning. Her lawyers went to great pains to state to the press that they never said she was hit." I have a feeling the prison doctors, psychologists, chaplains, guards and so on who have crossed paths with Amanda and Raffaele in prison have gone to similar great pains not to betray their feelings about the two defendants, lest they face slander suits themselves.
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Again, you display your ignorance of the difference between your euphamistic word 'criticism' and the matters of libel, slander, makeing false accusations, purjory and the like.

Mary H said:
Michael Heavey approached the Italian Court very respectfully -- where did it get him?
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You never cease to make the jaw drop. He went over the heads of the defence lawyers and publicly accused the Italian judges, courts, the police and the prosecutor of incompetence, dishonesty and CRIMINALITY, did so on King County Court official letterheaded paper and even dispatched copies off to the President and Prime Minister of Italy!!! Heavey ended up having to make a retraction and a public apology and Anne Bremner took the copy of his letter down from her site. Can you point out the 'respectful' part please, I must have missed it?
 
Mary H said:
The fact that Italy is only a generation or two removed from a Fascist regime should not require that we have to goose-step in order to communicate with them.
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And with that, you show your true colours.
 
Charlie Wilkes said:
I'm not asking Ghirga. I'm asking you.
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Why ask me? Ghirga's the one you should be asking. I know exactly why. Anything I say you can actively deny and disregard and so continue with business as usual. But Ghirga, you'd actually have to 'listen' to him and that's the last thing you want. You don't want defence lawyers spoiling your fun.
 
Charlie Wilkes said:
It was lying on top of her bed, right where she told them she had left it.

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008/03/we-were-joking.html
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Thanks, Charlie.
I believe I was remembering this exchange regarding the sweatshirt and the washing machine:

http://truecrimeweblog.freeforums.org/iiii-main-discussion-july-5-oct-2-t35-1600.html#p6203

The part that doesn't make sense to me still does not make sense to me. Either Amanda did not immediately tell them where this sweatshirt was despite the "importance" of this piece of evidence or she told them and the police did not bother to check for it (lost in plain sight). If Amanda didn't tell them was it because she forgot, or was there another reason for not wanting them to find it? If she did tell them, it makes the police look pretty poor (and if it was just sitting there on the bed regardless, that is just bizarre, in my opinion).

I guess the third option is she was confused or had another memory lapse, which would seem to support other similar claims of memory loss. In any case, I just look at this (not missing) piece of the puzzle and still see it as very strange. I assume the police tested it and found nada?
 
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Mary_H said:
As for Americans making Amanda's situation worse, well, as I said before, it is very hard to overcome one's cultural upbringing.
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No. An accusation without proof that law enforcement planted evidence in a murder case doesn't have anything to do with being an American or "cultural upbringing". It's just baseless garbage.

Basically, you are suggesting that Amanda's supporters toe the line and behave deferentially toward people we perceive as extremely immature and unethical. To do so would involve playing a complex game, the rules of which we would constantly have to be tutored in and reminded of.
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It doesn't matter the slightest bit what your perceptions are. If you really cared about Amanda's fate you would toe the line and follow the defense strategy both she and her family want. I'm sure Amanda's mother would wash Berlusconi's feet if it meant getting her daughter freed, so stop with moral superiority of labeling people "immature and unethical". The fact that you characterize changing your behavior as playing a "complex game" says much about what your real motivations are.

We would have to keep in mind that we are never allowed to criticize the prosecutors, police or investigators.
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Please explain how this helps her appeal.

I have a feeling the prison doctors, psychologists, chaplains, guards and so on who have crossed paths with Amanda and Raffaele in prison have gone to similar great pains not to betray their feelings about the two defendants, lest they face slander suits themselves.
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Again, you trash the Italians with no evidence.

Even if such an elaborate game -- a strategy, if you will -- were possible, and everybody on Amanda's team was willing to pull it off, we know there is still no guarantee that Mignini and his pals would respond predictably. It very easily could get to a point where he stops feeling threatened and starts feeling respected, but then he goes ahead and acts arbitrarily and capriciously anyway.
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I know you think this is an "elaborate game" but a real person's fate is on the line.

The fact that Italy is only a generation or two removed from a Fascist regime should not require that we have to goose-step in order to communicate with them.
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If the Italian justice system is in anyway influenced by what English speakers write on the Internet than it's comments like this that will help Amanda remain in prison a very long time.
 
Serendipity. Just when we are talking about Amanda's family and entourage going against the advice of their lawyers, this comes up:


Amanda Knox's family in talks for her to give tell-all interview - after spending $1m on legal fees
By Nick Pisa In Rome
Last updated at 3:22 PM on 16th May 2010


The Daily Mail


Amanda Knox's Italian lawyer Luciano Ghirga said: 'There are talks going on with three TV companies, one from America, Italy and Britain - but I'm not sure which ones.
'It's all being handled by the parents and the PR man that they have hired in America - to be honest I am not in favour at all and I would not advise it but they seem to be pretty insistent.'

The Knox family have hired PR consultant David Marriott in their home town of Seattle in Washington, who has been at the centre of the negotiations with ABC and Mediaset, the Italian TV company owned by billionaire controversial Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi.
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