Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[Mary_H]

Well, right there, you contradicted yourself. You have no preconceptions and yet you think AK and RS were wrongly convicted. Please correct that.

Do you want him to correct his thinking or correct his contradiction? Lord knows, there's no one else around here who ever contradict themselves.

If you are only concerned about the capacity of the prosecution to properly conduct themselves in an appeal, then those concerns are unfounded. Both the Italian system and those involved in it are quite professional. This is a system that has been capable of successfully marginalising such threats as the Mafia. I doubt they're incapable of handling simple appeals in a murder case involving three drifting young people.

Do my eyes deceive me or are you giving your opinion without explicitly stating that it is your opinion? I mean, I know it's presumptuous of me, but that is what I am detecting. According to the new rules, though, I think you're supposed to specify.

The law and the scientific method are still safe in spite of your concern.

One would never guess that by looking at all the help the prosecution and the investigators get from the guilters.

Your uncertainty has been tabled. Thank you.

Your job is done now so we likely won't be hearing anything further since both Italian jurisprudence and the scientific method have survived intact.

You and Fulcanelli need to get off your high horses and stop acting like you run the place. You don't.

 

[Amazer]

Hi guys and gals,
Anyone have an opinion?
There's A LOT of heavy hitter's on JREF right now: "Stilicho, Amazer, tsig, and Bobthedonkey", with some 13,000 posts under your collective belts here. Any of you guys or gals have an opinion on what I am asking of? Hmmm...
RWVBWL

Sure I have an opinion.

Every phone I've ever come across has a on/off button. That is what you would use to turn off a phone. Failing that, you could always just take out the battery.

No need to invent some fanciful scenario where someone is unable to switch of a phone because they don't understand English.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Hi guys and gals,
Anyone have an opinion?
There's A LOT of heavy hitter's on JREF right now: "Stilicho, Amazer, tsig, and Bobthedonkey", with some 13,000 posts under your collective belts here. Any of you guys or gals have an opinion on what I am asking of? Hmmm...
RWVBWL

Generally speaking, the same button cannot be used to both make phone calls and connect to the internet.

Regardless, there's nothing that states Amanda or Raffaele couldn't have fooled around with the phone to make it look like they didn't know what they were doing. Aside from that, how proficient was Raffaele at English? Has anyone tested Rudy's proficiency in English - if not, this is mere conjecture (again)?

 

[Mary_H]

Mary H. wrote today:
"This is a good argument for the claim that the police did not at first question what Amanda and Raffaele did the night before. If they had been asked about it right away and had to repeat it several times, they would have been able to remember. But it appears they were asked about it only after a couple of days."

_____________________________________

Well, Mary, the burden of proof is on your shoulders. Not only is it standard police procedure, but none other than Amanda herself contradicts you. Here is how Amanda describes the beginning of the famous November 5/6 interrogation:
"They [the cops] started asking me the same questions...what I'd done that night...." (See You Tube, Amanda Knox Statement 10/18/08 During Rudy Guede's Trial, posted by AMANDAKNOXARCHIVES, elapsed time index = 1:10)

____________________________

Hello all. This is my first post, though I've been reading for several weeks. I've followed the case since last summer, have posted over on the PMF site, and, yes, I believe that all three suspects are guilty of murder. Sorry, I didn't create a LIVE Link to the You Tube Amanda testimony, but as a new member I'm not permitted to do so.

///

I was talking about the time period immediately after the crime, as in, "the police did not at first question what Amanda and Raffaele did the night before" the murder.

You are quoting what Amanda said about the interrogation, not about the days before that.

Odd that none of your welcoming pals clarified that for you while I wasn't here.

 

[RWVBWL]

Sure I have an opinion.

Every phone I've ever come across has a on/off button. That is what you would use to turn off a phone. Failing that, you could always just take out the battery.

No need to invent some fanciful scenario where someone is unable to switch of a phone because they don't understand English.

Hi Amazer,
Thanks for the response. I can see your point. Myself, I have a pre-paid, pay as you go cell phone, which is pretty easy to use, with a red and green on/off buttons. However, the other day a friend, using their Iphone, or whatever the heck it was, dialed a number for me, and afterwards had to guide me how to end the call, much less turn it off. And I do read English pretty well, though I might type on a computer 1 finger atta time, being old school.
So what "Kate says..." when she posted that theory rang a bell in my mind...
What do you feel were the reasons that the 3 calls were made for? By mistake from someone trying to turn the phone off, or something else?
RWVBWL

 

[Fine]

Thanks for the warm welcome, RWVBWL.

Concerning those cell phone "actions" I don't think Rudy was trying to turn off Meredith's phone. What, he tried for 15 minutes?..........and why the long delays between the "actions"? You would expect multiple "actions" over, say, a minute of elapsed time. It's easy, especially under low light, to press the wrong buttons (I do it all the time), so maybe Meredith was using her phone to compose a text, which she later erased.

If the nonsense "actions" on Meredith's phone are in any way related to the murder, they may indicate a struggle between Meredith and the three assailants, with the three trying to wrestle away the phone from Meredith. Or, perhaps, each of those nonsense "actions" happened when Meredith opened her phone as a threat to call Filomena or Laura to report misconduct by the three suspects.

Without some BASE LINE data on how frequently nonsense "actions" came from Meredith's phone, it's difficult to attach much significance to her phone activity on the night of her murder.

///

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Thanks for the warm welcome, RWVBWL.

Concerning those cell phone "actions" I don't think Rudy was trying to turn off Meredith's phone. What, he tried for 15 minutes?..........and why the long delays between the "actions"? You would expect multiple "actions" over, say, a minute of elapsed time. It's easy, especially under low light, to press the wrong buttons (I do it all the time), so maybe Meredith was using her phone to compose a text, which she later erased.

If the nonsense "actions" on Meredith's phone are in any way related to the murder, they may indicate a struggle between Meredith and the three assailants, with the three trying to wrestle away the phone from Meredith. Or, perhaps, each of those nonsense "actions" happened when Meredith opened her phone as a threat to call Filomena or Laura to report misconduct by the three suspects.

Without some BASE LINE data on how frequently nonsense "actions" came from Meredith's phone, it's difficult to attach much significance to her phone activity on the night of her murder.

///

Meredith was likely already dead around the time the calls/connections were made (assuming the attack happened between 9 and 10, she would have bled out/strangled due to the cut in her throat well before midnight)

 

[BobTheDonkey]

I was talking about the time period immediately after the crime, as in, "the police did not at first question what Amanda and Raffaele did the night before" the murder.

You are quoting what Amanda said about the interrogation, not about the days before that.

Odd that none of your welcoming pals clarified that for you while I wasn't here.

Really? Again, Mary?

You, again, claim this Police department is completely incompetent. What, exactly, do you think the Police would have asked Amanda/Raffaele about? They were only interested in what happened the morning after the murder?

You're being ridiculous in order to support your belief that the Police in Perugia are incompetent.

 

[Amazer]

Hi Amazer,
Thanks for the response. I can see your point. Myself, I have a pre-paid, pay as you go cell phone, which is pretty easy to use, with a red and green on/off buttons. However, the other day a friend, using their Iphone, or whatever the heck it was, dialed a number for me, and afterwards had to guide me how to end the call, much less turn it off. And I do read English pretty well, though I might type on a computer 1 finger atta time, being old school.
So what "Kate says..." when she posted that theory rang a bell in my mind...
What do you feel were the reasons that the 3 calls were made for? By mistake from someone trying to turn the phone off, or something else?
RWVBWL

I have no idea what those 3 calls were for. Nor do I want to speculate on why those calls were made. Just not enough data.

I do think that the long intervals between the 3 calls establishes that it had nothing to do with trying to turn the phone off. I can't imagine that someone is going to spent 15 minutes just trying to switch the thing off. A few minutes perhaps.

I'm curious though what kind of phone Meredith was using. That would allow us to determine to an extend how difficult it is to turn that particular phone off.

 

[Fine]

Hi Mary.

Sorry, but I don't understand your response to me. Maybe I ---and others---misunderstood your original comment. To clarify the issue, let me ask your a simple YES or NO question.

Do you believe that PRIOR to her November 5th interrogation, the police had already asked Amanda about her whereabouts the night of the murder?

///

 

[Mary_H]

Hi Mary.

Sorry, but I don't understand your response to me. Maybe I ---and others---misunderstood your original comment. To clarify the issue, let me ask your a simple YES or NO question.

Do you believe that PRIOR to her November 5th interrogation, the police had already asked Amanda about her whereabouts the night of the murder?

///

The primary (possibly only) source of information we have for what the police asked Amanda about in the days following the discovery of Meredith's body comes from Amanda's e-mail to friends and family on November 4th. She writes:

"This is an email for everyone, because id like to get it all out and
not have to repeat myself a hundred times like ive been having to do
at the police station."

She then goes on to describe, in very lengthy detail, the circumstances of the morning the police discovered Meredith's body, plus a little bit about the last time she saw Meredith.

Here is what she says about the night before the murder:

"...while i waited for my friend (Raffaele-at whose house i stayed
over) to arrive at my house."

and,

"...after a little while of playing guitar me and raffael went to his
house to watch movies and after to eat dinner and generally spend the
evening and night indoors. we didnt go out."

Toward the end of the e-mail she writes:

"...at the station i just had to repeat the answers that i had givne
at the house do they could type them up and after a good 5 and a half
hour day with the police again raffael picked me up and took me out
for some well-deserved pizza...

and,

"...After that, I guess I'll go back to class on monday, although im not sure what im going to do about people asking me questions, because i really dont want to talk again about what happened. Ive been talking an awful lot lately and im pretty tired of it. After that, Its like im trying to remember what i was doing before all this happened."

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/02/from-amanda-knox.html

Amanda does not seem concerned in this e-mail about recounting anything about the night before the murder. She describes the contents of the discussions she has been having with the police, and the contents seem to focus almost completely on what happened the morning of the 2nd.

I would think that if the police had cast any aspersions on her about the night before the murder, she would have felt compelled to comment on that with her friends and family, as in, "Can you believe they are treating ME like a suspect?!" She might also have mentioned that the police have asked her over and over where she was the night of the murder.

Judging from the contents of her e-mail, it doesn't sound like the police were interested in that subject matter at all at that time. Maybe someone has some evidence to the contrary?

 

[BobTheDonkey]

The primary (possibly only) source of information we have for what the police asked Amanda about in the days following the discovery of Meredith's body comes from Amanda's e-mail to friends and family on November 4th. She writes:

"This is an email for everyone, because id like to get it all out and
not have to repeat myself a hundred times like ive been having to do
at the police station."

She then goes on to describe, in very lengthy detail, the circumstances of the morning the police discovered Meredith's body, plus a little bit about the last time she saw Meredith.

Here is what she says about the night before the murder:

"...while i waited for my friend (Raffaele-at whose house i stayed
over) to arrive at my house."

and,

"...after a little while of playing guitar me and raffael went to his
house to watch movies and after to eat dinner and generally spend the
evening and night indoors. we didnt go out."

Toward the end of the e-mail she writes:

"...at the station i just had to repeat the answers that i had givne
at the house do they could type them up and after a good 5 and a half
hour day with the police again raffael picked me up and took me out
for some well-deserved pizza...

and,

"...After that, I guess I'll go back to class on monday, although im not sure what im going to do about people asking me questions, because i really dont want to talk again about what happened. Ive been talking an awful lot lately and im pretty tired of it. After that, Its like im trying to remember what i was doing before all this happened."

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/02/from-amanda-knox.html

Amanda does not seem concerned in this e-mail about recounting anything about the night before the murder. She describes the contents of the discussions she has been having with the police, and the contents seem to focus almost completely on what happened the morning of the 2nd.

I would think that if the police had cast any aspersions on her about the night before the murder, she would have felt compelled to comment on that with her friends and family, as in, "Can you believe they are treating ME like a suspect?!" She might also have mentioned that the police have asked her over and over where she was the night of the murder.

Judging from the contents of her e-mail, it doesn't sound like the police were interested in that subject matter at all at that time. Maybe someone has some evidence to the contrary?

Interestingly, your bias is showing again.

You made the argument that Amanda was not asked about the night of the murder prior to the 5th. Your post shows just how wrong you are, and yet you handwave it away by claiming that because Amanda didn't focus on it as much in her email, the Police hadn't bothered to ask enough.

Again, the Police can do nothing right. "So maybe they asked, but they didn't ask enough times. Only, they're not supposed to ask more than once, because then it's undue stress on the interviewee..." Wait, what?

 

[Fine]

Mary,

You haven't answered my simple YES or NO question. (Do you believe that PRIOR to her November 5th interrogation, the police had already asked Amanda about her whereabouts the night of the murder?) Maybe you didn't understand that the question was addressed to you. And if you don't understand the question, I'd be happy to rephrase it.

It appears that you haven't listened to the audio tape I LINKED above. I suggest that you listen to it. At the elapsed time index 1:10 on that tape of Amanda's testimony, she says explicitly that when her interrogation of November 5th began, the cops started by asking her the SAME QUESTIONS she'd been asked before---such as what she'd done the night of the murder.

So, I guess I can rephrase my question as.....DO YOU BELIEVE AMANDA?

///

 

[Mary_H]

Interestingly, your bias is showing again.

You made the argument that Amanda was not asked about the night of the murder prior to the 5th. Your post shows just how wrong you are, and yet you handwave it away by claiming that because Amanda didn't focus on it as much in her email, the Police hadn't bothered to ask enough.

Again, the Police can do nothing right. "So maybe they asked, but they didn't ask enough times. Only, they're not supposed to ask more than once, because then it's undue stress on the interviewee..." Wait, what?

What are you talking about, Bob? How does my post show just how wrong I am?

 

[Mary_H]

Mary,

You haven't answered my simple YES or NO question. (Do you believe that PRIOR to her November 5th interrogation, the police had already asked Amanda about her whereabouts the night of the murder?) Maybe you didn't understand that the question was addressed to you. And if you don't understand the question, I'd be happy to rephrase it.

It appears that you haven't listened to the audio tape I LINKED above. I suggest that you listen to it. At the elapsed time index 1:10 on that tape of Amanda's testimony, she says explicitly that when her interrogation of November 5th began, the cops started by asking her the SAME QUESTIONS she'd been asked before---such as what she'd done the night of the murder.

So, I guess I can rephrase my question as.....DO YOU BELIEVE AMANDA?

///

Well, you're right, I haven't listened to the audiotape you linked to because my speakers aren't hooked up at the moment. If you think it is worth my while, I will hook them up and have a listen. I assumed you were using it to support the quote you provided from Amanda, in which she talks about what the police said to her the night of the 5th-6th, which was not a point of contention.

All I have to go on during the week after the murder is Amanda's e-mail, in she spends about 1/30th of her words on what she did the night before the murder, even though she is discussing what she has told the police.

You're also right that I did not answer your yes-or-no question, because we all know that this type of question is used essentially to bully and entrap, treating a complex subject as if it is simple and one-dimensional.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

What are you talking about, Bob? How does my post show just how wrong I am?

You claimed that Amanda and Raffaele were not asked about the night of the murder prior to their interviews on the 5th. However, your own post shows that she was indeed asked about the night of the murder. You then hand-waved that away by claiming that in your own personal, unsupported opinion Amanda and Raffaele were not repeatedly asked about their alibis for the night of the murder prior to Nov 5th.

So, which is it - the Police asked, but should've asked more? Except that you've already claimed that you feel Police shouldn't perform multiple interviews of the same individuals...

Thus, I showed that your bias against the Perguia Police force is showing. They can't do anything right for getting it all wrong. They didn't ask enough times, but they shouldn't ask more than once anyway...

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Well, you're right, I haven't listened to the audiotape you linked to because my speakers aren't hooked up at the moment. If you think it is worth my while, I will hook them up and have a listen. I assumed you were using it to support the quote you provided from Amanda, in which she talks about what the police said to her the night of the 5th-6th, which was not a point of contention.

All I have to go on during the week after the murder is Amanda's e-mail, in she spends about 1/30th of her words on what she did the night before the murder, even though she is discussing what she has told the police.

You're also right that I did not answer your yes-or-no question, because we all know that this type of question is used essentially to bully and entrap, treating a complex subject as if it is simple and one-dimensional.

This was not that complex a subject. The question is, in fact, quite forward: Were Amanda and Raffaele asked about their whereabouts prior to Nov 5th? Yes or no. Very simple, actually.

 

[Mary_H]

You claimed that Amanda and Raffaele were not asked about the night of the murder prior to their interviews on the 5th. However, your own post shows that she was indeed asked about the night of the murder. You then hand-waved that away by claiming that in your own personal, unsupported opinion Amanda and Raffaele were not repeatedly asked about their alibis for the night of the murder prior to Nov 5th.

Where in the e-mail does she say the police asked her about what she did the night before the murder?

So, which is it - the Police asked, but should've asked more? Except that you've already claimed that you feel Police shouldn't perform multiple interviews of the same individuals...

I have stated exactly the opposite, which you have conveniently forgotten in your hurry to misrepresent me.

Thus, I showed that your bias against the Perguia Police force is showing. They can't do anything right for getting it all wrong. They didn't ask enough times, but they shouldn't ask more than once anyway...

I suppose I do have a bias against the Perugian police -- although I don't know if it can be called a bias, since it is based on the fact that they falsely arrested three innocent people -- but I don't think it really figures into this question. There simply is no evidence that the police had any reason to suspect Amanda and Raffaele of any involvement in the murder until the point of their interrogations.

 

[Mary_H]

Mary,

It appears that you haven't listened to the audio tape I LINKED above. I suggest that you listen to it. At the elapsed time index 1:10 on that tape of Amanda's testimony, she says explicitly that when her interrogation of November 5th began, the cops started by asking her the SAME QUESTIONS she'd been asked before---such as what she'd done the night of the murder.

I hooked up my lame-o speakers and listened. The same statement is transcribed here:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/04/10/48hours/main4936228.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody

Amanda says nothing about the questions the police asked her before her interrogation.

 

[Mary_H]

This was not that complex a subject. The question is, in fact, quite forward: Were Amanda and Raffaele asked about their whereabouts prior to Nov 5th? Yes or no. Very simple, actually.

Do you have the answer? I don't.

I am sure the subject of their whereabouts flowed naturally from Amanda's description of how she came from Raffaele's, arrived at the cottage, went back to Raffaele's, and the two of them came from his place to the cottage. Our original discussion about this a few pages ago, however, focused on whether the police would have had a reason to ask Amanda and Raffaele pointedly what they DID the night before.

That subject matter seems to be where the guilters find the most inconsistencies (also called "lies" by some) -- even without evidence of any inconsistencies.