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Noah's Ark found?

154 I don’t doubt the flood story, it’s been repeatedly shown to be an impossible fairy tale, there is no doubt.
But to play along with your last post.
Lets just say the Ark was big enough to hold whatever animals, food, and other provisions god choose to place there.
The bible says the waters covered the highest mountains, this would make the temperature on the ark about that of the Antarctic, and the thin air would have been un-breathable, how does the ark’s design coop with those little details?
 
"Was The Ark Big Enough?


Assuming an 18-inch cubit, the ark would contain 1.5 million cubic feet, and would displace approximately 24,000 tons. This space approximates over 500 railroad cars and could contain 125,000 sheep or their equivalent. Since it has been estimated that there were about 18,000 species, and most of those would be smaller than a sheep, the space doesn't seem to be a real problem.

Assuming a sheep has a cuboid 3'x2'x2' body, that would make 12 cubic feet per sheep. Ignoring head and legs but including fleece. 125,000 sheep would fit in the Ark if they were crowbarred in and there were no air, no water, no foodstuffs..... They would all die, probably within minutes from the crush or soon after from the heat. I realise you are giving an example, but there are a lot of large animals around and they need to move about.

Incidentally you've forgotten freshwater aquatic species. They'll need to be in tanks, as many will not tolerate the brackish mix of seawater and rain. And the larger ones will need serious oxygenation systems.

Personally, had I been God at the time, I would just have waved a noodly appendage and uttered the immortal words "Make it so!", rather than faffing around with all this flood nonsense. Bah.
 
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154 I don’t doubt the flood story, it’s been repeatedly shown to be an impossible fairy tale, there is no doubt.
But to play along with your last post.
Lets just say the Ark was big enough to hold whatever animals, food, and other provisions god choose to place there.
The bible says the waters covered the highest mountains, this would make the temperature on the ark about that of the Antarctic, and the thin air would have been un-breathable, how does the ark’s design coop with those little details?

I may be missing something important here, but wouldn't the ark always be at sea level and thus always be at the very bottom of a column of air a few hundred miles tall?
 
Since it has been estimated that there were about 18,000 species, and most of those would be smaller than a sheep, the space doesn't seem to be a real problem.

By whom?

http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0934288.html

So, somehow he manages to collect all the spiders, and find space for them and.....how did they get fed again? Well, whatever. And...oh, yes, he didn't actually need all that space anyway because he only needed two cats, and every feline from housecats to tigers are descended from those two cats because there was a burst of microevolution following the release from the ark, which means he probably only needed a few spiders.

But then we come into all the weird details like what kedo brought up:


The bible says the waters covered the highest mountains, this would make the temperature on the ark about that of the Antarctic, and the thin air would have been un-breathable, how does the ark’s design coop with those little details?

Those animals all lived in different environments, so climate control would be necessary, and of course some of the things that creep on the ground have lifespans that are less than 40 days and 40 nights so.....

Well, who cares? God can keep animals alive in unusual conditions. He's God. If he doesn't want the spiders to eat, they don't have to eat. If he wants the penguins and the desert dwellers to live side by side, for God that is no problem at all. He can make rainclouds and an atmosphere at 30000 feet above normal sea level. He's God, dag nabit! It's his Earth and if he wants to roll it up into a ball after the flood he can!

In fact, if he wants those animals to survive, He doesn't even need a boat!

So we have this weird story about how Noah, his family, and two of every animal on the Earth (except for 14 of some) were saved by getting on a boat, but the boat was neither necessary nor sufficient to save the animals from drowning. That's one strange and mysterious God you've got there.
 
I may be missing something important here, but wouldn't the ark always be at sea level and thus always be at the very bottom of a column of air a few hundred miles tall?

Yeah, the air should move on up with the water level. It would be thinner than it is in the real world at sea level just due to the size of the atmostphere changing (just like a layer of tape / toilet paper / whatever from the outside of the roll is longer than one at the core... the core has gotten bigger with all that water) but it would't be so thin as it is at the top of the mountains IRL. Even so, even if that would mean it was totally breathable for your average animal... once you start introducing physics things get messy very fast.

the boat was neither necessary nor sufficient to save the animals from drowning.

Pretty much sums it up. Very odd indeed.
 
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http://ncse.com/cej/4/1/impossible-voyage-noahs-ark

The needs of the animals.
As if the rough construction of the ship weren't headache enough, the internal organization had to be honed to perfection. With space at a premium every cubit had to be utilized to the maximum; there was no room for oversized cages and wasted space. The various requirements of the myriads of animals had to be taken into account in the design of their quarters, especially considering the length of the voyage. The problems are legion: feeding and watering troughs need to be the correct height for easy access but not on the floor where they will get filthy; the cages for horned animals must have bars spaced properly to prevent their horns from getting stuck, while rhinos require round "bomas" for the same reason; a heavy leather body sling is "indispensable" for transporting giraffes; primates require tamper-proof locks on their doors; perches must be the correct diameter for each particular bird's foot (Hirst; Vincent). Even the flooring is important, for, if it is too hard, hooves may be injured, if too soft, they may grow too quickly and permanently damage ankles (Klos); rats will suffer decubitus (ulcers) with improper floors (Orlans), and ungulates must have a cleated surface or they will slip and fall (Fowler). These and countless other technical problems all had to be resolved before the first termite crawled aboard, but there were no wildlife management experts available for consultation. Even today the transport requirements of many species are not fully known, and it would be physically impossible to design a single carrier to meet them all. Apparently, when God first told Noah to build an ark, he supplied a complete set of blueprints and engineering details, constituting the most intricate and precise revelation ever vouchsafed to humankind.​
 
Assuming an 18-inch cubit, the ark would contain 1.5 million cubic feet, and would displace approximately 24,000 tons. This space approximates over 500 railroad cars and could contain 125,000 sheep or their equivalent. Since it has been estimated that there were about 18,000 species, and most of those would be smaller than a sheep, the space doesn't seem to be a real problem.

18,000 species of what ?

And what about the manure problem ?
 
And what about the manure problem ?

What indeed?:

http://ncse.com/cej/4/1/impossible-voyage-noahs-ark#Caring for the Cargo

Sanitation and water disposal.
The mention of waste brings attention to that problem. All authorities on animal care insist on the cleanliness of the stalls, urging the daily removal of waste and soiled bedding. Neubuser remarks that "the removal of zoo waste presents almost insuperable difficulties" (p. 170); on the ark these must have multiplied manyfold. Creationists Balsiger and Sellier suggest that the bottom deck was used to store slurry, which accumulated to 800 tons during the voyage. However, a single adult elephant could produce 40 tons during this time (Coe), and there were many creatures even larger. Our average animal, the sheep, produces 0.34 tons per year; poultry, 0.047 (Sainsbury and Sainsbury, p. 110). Multiplying the number of vertebrates by 0.34, the seven pairs of birds by 0.047, yields 25,508 tons of waste—six times heavier than the ark itself! Of course, hibernation would greatly reduce this quantity, while the invertebrates and dinosaurs would add to it. Whatever the total, it would have been an awesome amount on the overcrowded boat, a breeder of infinite numbers of pathogens, and a source of noxious, choking fumes.

A comparison with Lamoureux's Guide to Ship Sanitation is instructive. Complex plumbing systems of pipes and pumps, air-gaps and back-flow valves, filters and chemical treatments are necessary to provide potable water and dispose of sewage. Waste is treated and dumped overboard, not discharged to the bilge as on the ark. Such technology was clearly beyond Noah's ability and the maintenance capabilities of his tiny crew; yet, if ever it was needed on a voyage, this was it.

 
Those animals all lived in different environments, so climate control would be necessary, and of course some of the things that creep on the ground have lifespans that are less than 40 days and 40 nights so.....

Well, who cares? God can keep animals alive in unusual conditions. He's God. If he doesn't want the spiders to eat, they don't have to eat. If he wants the penguins and the desert dwellers to live side by side, for God that is no problem at all. He can make rainclouds and an atmosphere at 30000 feet above normal sea level. He's God, dag nabit! It's his Earth and if he wants to roll it up into a ball after the flood he can!

In fact, if he wants those animals to survive, He doesn't even need a boat!

So we have this weird story about how Noah, his family, and two of every animal on the Earth (except for 14 of some) were saved by getting on a boat, but the boat was neither necessary nor sufficient to save the animals from drowning. That's one strange and mysterious God you've got there.
Am I really stupid if I never thought of that?
 
If I were required to fill such an ark with animals I would choose baby animals in order to conserve space.
 
By you. Put forth by you. You said that at the time of the flood there were only basic types of animals and they were all adapted to the same environment and then afterwards (without any miracles) they spread and evolved to be the critters we know today.

The word "kind" is used in Genesis. Judging by the diversity evident today and if one accepts the Genesis account, then one would have to assume that diversification took place. Those who try to explain this phenomenon via natural terms say it was speciation.


The flood ended in 2343 BC. You are saying that between then and the time we started documenting animals (I'll be really generous and say that leaves 2000 years) we got from a few basic "types" to everything we know. But then in the following 2000 years between then and now we don't see that kind of super-rapid change.


Can you please provide documentation in support of your claim that the time you mention is insufficient?


Heck, let's just take humans as an example. By your logic, humans should have adapted to all sorts of different environments and yet we haven't. It just flat out doesn't happen like that.

Then you are unfamiliar with the theory of evolution which tells us that all racial traits can be traced to adaptations.



Oh, man. I can't believe I wasted my time reading that. It didn't come even close to providing any evidence at all for your position.

Have you?

BTW
What is my position?


How Fast Can Speciation Be?
Apart from the "what-if" of the case of the apple maggot fly, which may not yet have completed the speciation event, there are spectacular examples in the living world where we can confidently say that speciation must have been very rapid.
The fruit flies of Hawaii
Darwin's finches
Stickleback fishes in Canada
The cichlid fishes of the East African lakes
Case Study: The Fruit Flies of Hawaii (and Israel): "quantum speciation"?
http://mygeologypage.ucdavis.edu/cowen/historyoflife/speciationmode.html
 
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If I were required to fill such an ark with animals I would choose baby animals in order to conserve space.

http://ncse.com/cej/4/1/impossible-voyage-noahs-ark#Accommodating All Those Animals

Adult animals.
So now we are back to fitting all the animals on board. Yet creationists still have another method of saving space. They postulate that many full grown adult animal forms were left behind and that only young and thus smaller specimens were taken or—the ultimate economy—that eggs were sufficient for the preservation of the dinosaurs (John Morris, 1980, p. 66). Most zoologists, however, would agree with Neill when he writes that "the mortality rate is usually very high among seedling plants and young animals; but once the critical juvenile stage is passed, the organism has a good chance of reaching old age" (p. 388). In birds, for example, as many as 80 percent die before reaching maturity (Dathe)—facing everyday hazards. Furthermore, the young of many species cannot survive without parental care and feeding (imagine two tiny unweaned kittens shivering in their stalls!), and, even if they can, the lack of a normal social environment often results in severe behavioral disturbances.

The luckless animals aboard the ark were confronting the gravest challenge to their endurance ever known, and they needed to be the strongest, healthiest, and most virile representatives their species had ever produced; juveniles would not do. As for the dinosaur eggs, how did Noah know whether one would yield a female, the other a male—or even that both were fertile? And since no eggs require a year's gestation, he soon would have had a hoard of fragile hatchlings on his hands.
 
http://ncse.com/cej/4/1/impossible-voyage-noahs-ark#Accommodating All Those Animals

Adult animals.
So now we are back to fitting all the animals on board. Yet creationists still have another method of saving space. They postulate that many full grown adult animal forms were left behind and that only young and thus smaller specimens were taken or—the ultimate economy—that eggs were sufficient for the preservation of the dinosaurs (John Morris, 1980, p. 66). Most zoologists, however, would agree with Neill when he writes that "the mortality rate is usually very high among seedling plants and young animals; but once the critical juvenile stage is passed, the organism has a good chance of reaching old age" (p. 388). In birds, for example, as many as 80 percent die before reaching maturity (Dathe)—facing everyday hazards. Furthermore, the young of many species cannot survive without parental care and feeding (imagine two tiny unweaned kittens shivering in their stalls!), and, even if they can, the lack of a normal social environment often results in severe behavioral disturbances.

The luckless animals aboard the ark were confronting the gravest challenge to their endurance ever known, and they needed to be the strongest, healthiest, and most virile representatives their species had ever produced; juveniles would not do. As for the dinosaur eggs, how did Noah know whether one would yield a female, the other a male—or even that both were fertile? And since no eggs require a year's gestation, he soon would have had a hoard of fragile hatchlings on his hands.

Aren't dinosaurs supposed to have been extinct by then?

BTW
Just as humans are believed to have been closer to perfection and possessing greater vigor which permitted lifespans unheard of now, so also animals could have been closer to their perfect design. So the weaknesses of juvenile animals might not have been as prominent then. That's one explanation that those who adhere to the account as literal would provide or could provide.
 
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Aren't dinosaurs supposed to have been extinct by then?

The article is written in rebuttal to several creationist tracts and texts, most of which are young-earth adherents, which means that for them dinosaurs died off in the Ice Age that followed the Flood.

What about the other points in the passage, about young animals being not viable because of their weakness, likelihood of mortality, social deficiencies, etc.? Or is the answer simply "miracle, miracle, miracle"? In which case, why have a boat at all?

ETA:
Radrook said:
BTW
Just as humans are believed to have been closer to perfection and possessing greater vigor which permitted lifespans unheard of now, so also animals could have been closer to their perfect design. So the weaknesses of juvenile animals might not have been as prominent then. That's one explanation that those who adhere to the account as literal would provide or could provide.

That fails to address the issue of behavioral deficiencies owing to lack of proper socialization, as well as the stated fact that "the young of many species cannot survive without parental care and feeding (imagine two tiny unweaned kittens shivering in their stalls!)"
 
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The word "kind" is used in Genesis. Judging by the diversity evident today and if one accepts the Genesis account, then one would have to assume that diversification took place. Those who try to explain this phenomenon via natural terms say it was speciation.

http://ncse.com/cej/4/1/impossible-voyage-noahs-ark#Accommodating All Those Animals

Limiting the cargo to "kinds."

Genetic problems.
Without going into the details of genetics, it can be stated that every inherited trait, however small, is coded for by one or more genes, and each gene locus may have a substantial number of variants (alleles), which accounts for the great variety observed in a given population. Any specific individual, however, has at most only two alleles per locus—one from each parent. [snip supporting quote by James C. King]

Hence, for a trait such as human pigmentation, "we can visualize not merely a few dozen interacting loci but an array of perhaps a dozen or so alleles at each locus" (p. 60).

From this we can see that the original canine baramin in Eden would have needed a fantastic set of giant chromosomes with alleles for every trait that would someday be manifest in coyotes, wolves, foxes, jackals, dingos, fennecs, and the myriad of minute variations in hair color (twenty-four genes at nine loci), height, face shape, and so forth that are seen in the domestic dog (cf. Hutt). So, too, for the feline kind, within which creationists Byron Nelson (p. 157) and Alfred Rehwinkel (p. 70) both place lions, tigers, leopards, and ocelots as well as housecats. Similar giant chromosomes would be required for the bovine kind, equine kind, and so on.

In the centuries before the deluge, these strange progenitors must have rapidly diversified into their potential species, as the fossil record shows. The equine kind developed not only zebras, horses, onagers, asses, and quaggas but Eohippus, Mesohippus, Merychippus, and other now-extinct species that paleontologists have misinterpreted as evidence for evolution. (Remember that creationists hold that the flood is responsible for the burial of most, if not all, fossil species. Therefore they had to already exist prior to the deluge.)

Then one day, many centuries later, the Lord told Noah to take two canines, two felines, two equines, two pinnipedians—one male and one female each—and put them aboard the ark. The trick is, which does our ancient zoologist choose? A male kit fox and a female Great Dane? A female lion and a male alley cat? An Eohippus and a Clydesdale? Which two individuals would possess the tremendous genetic complement that their ancestors in Eden had, to enable the many species to reappear after the flood? How could Noah tell? Creationist Dennis Wagner tells us that the original kinds degenerated through inbreeding so that their offspring would "never again reach the hereditary variability of the parent" (quoted in Awbrey...). Yet the unique couple aboard the ark needed the full genetic potential of the original kind, if not more, for a vast new array of climatic and geographic niches was opened up by the flood.
etc., etc., etc.
 
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"Then the LORD said to Noah, 'Come into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen that you are righteous before me in this generation. Take with you seven pairs of all clean animals, the male and his mate; and a pair of the animals that are not clean, the male and his mate; and seven pairs of the birds of the air also, male and female, to keep their kind alive upon the face of all the earth."
 

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